How to fix religions.

Mouthwash

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Religions are represented horribly in BTS. They're one of several half-baked mechanics like global warming and corporations, but attempts to improve them (make later religions spread faster!) don't really make them interesting imho. The modding community hasn't really fixed the core issues with it.

Here's my proposal: have three "base" religions: Hinduism, Judaism, and Confucianism. These will spread only within the borders of a civ which has them as their state religion, and cannot build missionaries. They can also spread to larger or high-culture cities in other civs once their shrine is built, although not in cities that already have a religion. There are also "daughter" religions: Buddhism, Christianity, and Confucianism respectively (Islam can be a daughter of Christianity). These would have missionaries and would also spread more easily than base religions.

I think that a daughter religion should be able to spread naturally (provided its shrine is built) to cities where its parent exists, while the parent should not be able to do the reverse. Spreading an alien religion, e.g. Islam to a Confucian city, should be possible only with missionaries.

Natural spread should happen fairly quickly within a civilization that has converted, but spread to other civs should absolutely require trade contact and open borders. One failure of BTS is that this is very loosely tied to distance - a religion can pop up seemingly anywhere. I don't think religions ought to expand in an orderly line, there should be *some* predictive trend to it. And religious buildings should make it harder for rival religions to exist in the city - perhaps temples would resist natural spread while monasteries would resist missionaries, and cathedrals both.

I'd use a mechanic like the one in RFC: DoC's reformation event to ensure that the daughter religions can compete with their parents. Let me lay out how this will work: upon gaining the required tech, a civ that either has converted to Judaism, or owns the Jewish holy city will found Christianity. All Jewish civs will have to make a choice:

Option one: Christianity replaces Judaism in most cities, but may coexist with it in large cities. The civ converts to Christianity.

Option two: Christianity spreads to a few cities and will rarely replace Judaism entirely.

Option three: Christianity may spread only to larger cities, and the civ will declare war on those that choose option one.

The process should be similar for the other paths (Hindu/Buddhism, Confucian/Taoism).

Each religion has a focus: Hinduism on culture, Buddhism on happiness and health, Confucianism on production, Taoism on gold, Christianity on science (this is historical, yes), Judaism on Great People, Islam on Golden Ages. I also think that base religions should not have cathedrals, since none of them seem to have had a tradition of ornate temple building in real life.

Religious decay is also made more interesting. The chance of a religion decaying are tied to the shrines that are built, the religious buildings in the city, the religion and civics of the owner, the relationship between the religions (daughter religions should be more durable than their parent), etc. I'm also thinking of a persecution building which if built sends the city into revolt, removes non-state religions, destroys their buildings and recoups gold and production from them. (I've always hated the inquisitor unit- what's the point of producing a unit to perform a city-based action?)

Finally, missionary mechanics could work differently for some religions. Suggestions: Buddhism has missionary cap removed, Christianity does not allow missionaries to be built but spawns them completely automated in cities with Christian monasteries. And the founder of Islam receives a Great Prophet, to make up for the difficulty of getting one later in the game.

Pretty workable imho.
 
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My first glance assessment of the complexity of these ideas:
- base religions: make them the only religions associated with a founding tech, done.
- derived religions: Python scripting depending on what the trigger for founding them is.
- "reformation" events: Python as well. Credit for the original concept and implementation goes to Panopticon by the way.
- different spread rules: DLL
- religious decay: DLL as well. The harder part actually is to come up with good specific criteria when a city should check for decay and when it should occur, I didn't get very far on that front.
- religion specific advantages: many possibilities if you focus on religious buildings (I agree that monasteries are a good place to implement this), but depending on the kind of effect Python or DLL might be required

I have had similar thoughts about religion by the way, so thanks for writing that up. The ideas around derived religions have slowly seeped into DoC but should probably be elevated to an "official" mechanic there as you describe. I especially like how their relationship influences religion spread and decay (as well as diplomatic relations?), that all seems very intuitive and realistic.

As for persecutor units, I had it localized to the city for a long time as well, but then came around to the unit implementation. That's mainly because you want to limit both in terms of parallel persecution. And it's better to allow only one persecutor than allow only one ongoing persecution in a city, because the latter could take a long time in a low-production non-state-religion city.
 
The ideas around derived religions have slowly seeped into DoC but should probably be elevated to an "official" mechanic there as you describe.

While I'm happy if this influences your mod design, I really wish I could see this implemented in BTS. There's something to be said for really emergent gameplay. The whole idea of scripting the founding and spread, as DoC does, doesn't hold much appeal for me. (I may be too late though, depending on how much of the mod community has drifted away.)

As for persecutor units, I had it localized to the city for a long time as well, but then came around to the unit implementation. That's mainly because you want to limit both in terms of parallel persecution. And it's better to allow only one persecutor than allow only one ongoing persecution in a city, because the latter could take a long time in a low-production non-state-religion city.

That makes sense. But maybe having state religion buildings could speed up persecution? It makes sense that you would build a Christian community up in a region before expelling or converting its Muslims.
 
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To be frank, while I'm happy if this influences your mod design, I really wish I could see this implemented in BTS.
Then make it happen :D

There's something to be said for really emergent gameplay. The whole idea of providing regional boosts, as DoC does for Christianity, utterly turns me off. (I may be too late though, depending on how much of the mod community has drifted away.)
Sure, DoC has a different purpose than the base game, and by definition always has to toe the line between emergent gameplay and familiar historical simulation.

I am also unhappy with the arbitrary way DoC ensures things like Christianity spread (although some regional influence is required), but that is in part because the religion system itself lacks a reasonable foundation to produce the desired outcome on its own. I plan to change that though, and better account for ahistorical scenarios where such a behavior would be counterintuitive.

That makes sense. But maybe religious buildings could speed up persecution (by a lot)? It makes sense that you would build a Christian community up in a region before expelling or converting its Muslims.
Sure, it could even be related to whatever factors influence religion decay in general.
 
Then make it happen :D

I was never capable of modding much more than XML. I'm willing to give this a shot, but I doubt I could ever implement the more complex mechanics (religion decay) myself. Also, how do I mod in the reformation event from DoC?
 
It's probably better to ask that question in the DoC modmodding thread.
 
There are some very interesting suggestion here, however, the biggest problem with religions in the game as it is imo, is that it is not a bad thing to have more than one religion in your cities. Does anybody know if it is possible to change this? Should be bad to have to much religious diversity (create unrest etc), and definitely not give you more culture/science as it does now.

Sorry or hijacking the thread btw, just though i might as well post it here since you are already talking about the problems with religions as they are.
 
There are some very interesting suggestion here, however, the biggest problem with religions in the game as it is imo, is that it is not a bad thing to have more than one religion in your cities. Does anybody know if it is possible to change this? Should be bad to have to much religious diversity (create unrest etc), and definitely not give you more culture/science as it does now.

Sorry or hijacking the thread btw, just though i might as well post it here since you are already talking about the problems with religions as they are.

This, of course, is not always the case. Shinto and Buddhism work well together increasing the stability of a nation. This probably works in Japan because one is the state (not State) religion and the other is the people's personal religion. One is used every day by the people in their daily lives. The other is used for state events including births, deaths and marriages. This difference between the belief of the people and the state ceremonies has been around for a long time, but is not usually seen in monotheistic religions.

Polytheistic religions can combine in a similar fashion, for example in the Classic era getting a new cult was almost like getting a new TV series today! Although novelty seemed to last longer back then. Sometimes this would be good and sometimes it would be bad from a state perspective.

What is needed is some relationship model between the religions. Plus some governmental attitude (civic?) indicating what the state thinks about having multiple religions, a limited set of religions or only one supported religion. Allowing multiple religions would possibly reduce tensions but would also have other costs.
 
There are some very interesting suggestion here, however, the biggest problem with religions in the game as it is imo, is that it is not a bad thing to have more than one religion in your cities. Does anybody know if it is possible to change this? Should be bad to have to much religious diversity (create unrest etc), and definitely not give you more culture/science as it does now.

Sorry or hijacking the thread btw, just though i might as well post it here since you are already talking about the problems with religions as they are.
The easiest thing you can do with existing XML even is use Free Religion's "+1 happiness from non-state religions" and enter a negative value there to create negative happiness from non-state religions. You can also combine this with having some religious buildings require their religion as state religion to limit their benefits.
 
If I remember correctly, the negative value works alright but you get an overflow of the number in the display which creates a bit of a confusion! :crazyeye:

This problem can only be fixed in the dll.
 
That's unfortunate. But I think K-Mod fixes this, and it's always a good idea to use K-Mod as your base.
 
It was already fixed in the Unofficial Patch for BtS 3.19:

Code:
CvGameTextMgr - Game will now properly display info for buildings which
generate unhappiness in an area or globally,
or produce state religion unhappiness (should these ever come up in mods)
 
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