how to make the most out of the spiritual trait?

[VoiceOfUnreason]

don't know if anyone has said this yet but if you're playing on normal speed spiritual is nearly worthless imo since anarchy only lasts one turn (you would have to be changing civs a LOT for it to make THAT much of a difference esp in order to justify sacrificing a different trait).

Spiritual without changing civics a LOT is equivalent to Aggressive without Melee and Gunpowder units.

 

[futurehermit]

yeah, but what i'm saying is that you would have to be changing civs even more than you would normally with a spiritual civ to justify using spiritual on normal speed. i'm talking like every 5 turns which is a bit extreme imo. people have reported using spiritual to switch every 10 turns, which seems balanced. but even if you were doing it every 10 turns on normal...i don't know maybe it's worth it, but i'd still rather have a different trait i think.

don't get me wrong, i'm not bashing the trait. i think on epic/marathon it's pretty uber, *esp* if you are going cultural.

 

[Immaculate]

Ironworks/WallStreet is clearly the ideal situation for a priest, but I'm not sure that it's ideal for a civ. Ironworks comes in the industrial era, vs Literature at the beginning of the classical era. I think you will be better served by getting priests sooner than by doubling their production value in the endgame.

There's also the fact that forge+ironworks is pretty unhealthy - not a good thing for a GP farm (although perhaps a non issue).

And where Ironworks maxes out the value of the priest specialist, the specialist (2P) doesn't do nearly as much for the Ironworks as a plains mine (5P).

Put in more abstract terms, you want the GPFarm put where you have the most (concentrated) food available, but you want the Ironworks where you have the most food+production available.

So I'm not sure this is a match; I think I could be persuaded, though.

My bad. I didn't realize we were discussing the GPP farm. If we are talking about a GPP farm wouldn't you want to put the national epic there?

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

My bad. I didn't realize we were discussing the GPP farm. If we are talking about a GPP farm wouldn't you want to put the national epic there?

Well, you only get one National Epic, so where do you want to put it?

Or back up another notch: let us suppose that you could guarantee that your second city would land two religions... what kind of terrain would you choose for that city to be on?

The shrines are going to be gold fountains, eventually, so it makes sense that if you intend to be attaching merchant/priest specialists anywhere, you'll want it to be here. To maximize the return of that gold, you'll want to have grocer+market+bank+Wall Street here. So just on this alone, you've got 13 available specialist slots.

That alone says to me that you would optimally want to be on specialist terrain - several high yield food tiles at hand. With the Angkor Wat in play, you are exchanging surplus food for hammers, so you're going to be getting good production out of this venue even while running all specialists, so erecting additional buildings, wonders, and so on shouldn't be unreasonable.

So to me, that sounds like a rockin' GP farm. But what's around it?

Part of the fun (sarcasm) of a GP farm is the law of diminishing returns - as the GP get further apart, the value of the city falls; as the calendar moves, the GP drop in marginal value (the lifetime of the attached specialists is lower, they don't offer as great a return on techs). This is especially true of priests - the shrines can only be built once, and the techs are done in the Renaissance, so you are either attaching them or waiting to burn them in a golden age.

Given that, maybe it does make sense that you would want the shrines in a city that can change character late in the game. For instance, if the surrounding territory is flat, and you have a nice convenient river, then it might make sense to run specialists until State Property, then remake the place with watermills and workshops. 50 - 60 hammers from the tiles, plus additional hammers from the attached priests, seems to me a pretty good base for an Ironworks city (assuming your victory target is a peaceful one, since you can't now combine the Ironworks with either of the military wonders). [ in other words, you build the national epic in your other GP farm, and just use this one for priests ].

On the other hand, if you are surrounded by tiles you cannot improve, then a GP farm is all this is ever going to be, and I think attaching the national epic to it makes sense.

I'm not sure it's worth lots of worrying about though. Two shrines in a city either calls for a deliberate hydra (which may leave you cramped for space), or catching a pair of religions when you are have two cities, or catching a first religion in the capital, getting three more cities down, building the palace then catching 1-3 more religions [I'm not actually sure this last one works - it only just now occurred to me as an option].

 

[shivute]

Spiritual is my fav trait. All the uses for Spiritual are included above.

When you list them all, I believe that the tactics and strategy open to a player is much greater than with any other trait. Civics are very powerful in this game as religion can be as well.

For diplomacy, switching religions as well as civics, when that war mongering AI on your border asks you to, increases relations as well.

My favourite leader has to be Saladin - spiritual and philosophical - watch him pump out the great people. UU is rubbish though.
I also like Mansa - Spiritual and financial - the skirmisher is fantastic against barbs. I really like coastal empires with financial.
I also like Isabella - Spiritual and expansive - I really like expansive in the new patch, it can be a god send when building factories and powerplants. The UU has its uses but it isn't the best.

Spiritual and aggression though, seems to me to be a powerful combination, however it has been weakened by the Jaguar UU which has put me off it. I do want to see though, if this trait combo is as powerful as I think.

 

[roadie]

I too like spiritual and play most often with Isabella. I like the Spanish voice acting in the game. However, I have not played with her in the new patch and it seems like she will be even better than before.

 

[Immaculate]

Well, you only get one National Epic, so where do you want to put it?

Or back up another notch: let us suppose that you could guarantee that your second city would land two religions... what kind of terrain would you choose for that city to be on?

The shrines are going to be gold fountains, eventually, so it makes sense that if you intend to be attaching merchant/priest specialists anywhere, you'll want it to be here. To maximize the return of that gold, you'll want to have grocer+market+bank+Wall Street here. So just on this alone, you've got 13 available specialist slots.

That alone says to me that you would optimally want to be on specialist terrain - several high yield food tiles at hand. With the Angkor Wat in play, you are exchanging surplus food for hammers, so you're going to be getting good production out of this venue even while running all specialists, so erecting additional buildings, wonders, and so on shouldn't be unreasonable.

So to me, that sounds like a rockin' GP farm. But what's around it?

Part of the fun (sarcasm) of a GP farm is the law of diminishing returns - as the GP get further apart, the value of the city falls; as the calendar moves, the GP drop in marginal value (the lifetime of the attached specialists is lower, they don't offer as great a return on techs). This is especially true of priests - the shrines can only be built once, and the techs are done in the Renaissance, so you are either attaching them or waiting to burn them in a golden age.

Given that, maybe it does make sense that you would want the shrines in a city that can change character late in the game. For instance, if the surrounding territory is flat, and you have a nice convenient river, then it might make sense to run specialists until State Property, then remake the place with watermills and workshops. 50 - 60 hammers from the tiles, plus additional hammers from the attached priests, seems to me a pretty good base for an Ironworks city (assuming your victory target is a peaceful one, since you can't now combine the Ironworks with either of the military wonders). [ in other words, you build the national epic in your other GP farm, and just use this one for priests ].

On the other hand, if you are surrounded by tiles you cannot improve, then a GP farm is all this is ever going to be, and I think attaching the national epic to it makes sense.

I'm not sure it's worth lots of worrying about though. Two shrines in a city either calls for a deliberate hydra (which may leave you cramped for space), or catching a pair of religions when you are have two cities, or catching a first religion in the capital, getting three more cities down, building the palace then catching 1-3 more religions [I'm not actually sure this last one works - it only just now occurred to me as an option].

Its interesting and it would certainly pay off i think. If you try it, post some screenies.

 

[heythere84]

The way I used spiritual in my last game was I conquered Russia, which happened to be in a really crappy jungle region. I was Ghandi so I kept switching from serfdom to slavery to pop rush buildings such as courthouses and temples, then I would switch back to serfdom and with Ghandi's fast workers, I had that region booming better economically, and production wise then my original empire was in probably half the time I thought it was possible.

 

[rdm180]

I also like Isabella - Spiritual and expansive - I really like expansive in the new patch, it can be a god send when building factories and powerplants. The UU has its uses but it isn't the best.

As far as I can tell, the only counter to the Conquistador (until Grenadiers / Rifles / Cavs) is the War Elephant, which is typically rare to see. Having never used Spain, but thinking about doing so in my next game, I'm curious to know if I'm missing something that would keep their UU from being a pretty darn good warmongering unit for it's time. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

-RDM

 

[sucinum]

A knight-unit which gets a defense-bonus in hills and forests shouts: go pillaging!

 

[cabert]

almost everything as been said on the uses of the spiritual trait, but i would like to add (like futurehermit pointed out) that spiritual is THE trait for cultural victory.

* You get those cheap temples (even cheaper if you use OrgRel in the right times) necessary for cathedral building. Think of it, you can have 7 * 0,5 = 3,5 free temples in every city. That's not a side bonus. It's a realllllyyyy big boost!
* You can swap civics and religions every other turn (well 5 turns for civics, 5 for religion : you could change every 2 /3 turns) to make friends all over the place
* most spiritual leaders start with mysticism : you can build those very cheap obelisks immediately, and stonehenge isn't very costly either. Plus it's on the way to religions...
Don't you hear it shout cultural! cultural ! CULTURAL! CULTURAL!

 

[futurehermit]

yes, i hear it shout cultural, but especially on epic/marathon. on normal/quick i would still prefer a different trait. i'm more of a warmongerer though so i find it hard to pass on aggressive and monty is umm...well y'know...

 

[Kalleyao]

Here's a good strategy for spiritual. The thread is here.

 

[The Lardossen]

It's great with the Pyramids, because you'll be able to switch much in the early game. I use Police State (not sure it's called this way....) to reduce war-weariness and for the bonus on military while REX'ing. And after the war is over you switch back in a second without any penalty whatsoever.....powerfull!

 

[futurehermit]

yeah, too bad monty is so bleh. pyramids with him would make for a pretty powerful rex.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

No, this was all just an exercise in thinking about it, partly from experimenting recently with Saladin, partly from experimenting with Monty, and in particular thinking about the challenge of getting more than one religion into a city.

Thanks to a hint from Krikkitone, I've made some progress on this.

The formula for selecting a holy city is located in the SDK (CvPlayer::foundReligion in cvplayer.cpp). There's a random term, and a big handicap factor which virtually eliminates the capital from landing a religion if another city is available, but the key terms that can be controlled readily are the number of religions and the population of the city.

So, trick number one: avoid putting other religions in your shrine city, if you can, until you manage to double up. Leave no city unconverted; if you control a second religion, convert your other cities as well (but not Shrineville). Have the population high in Shrineville as the new religion is about to come in, and low elsewhere (throw me the whip, I'll throw you the idol!). Pray (hey, you've already got a religion in hand, prayer might work).

There are a couple possible sequences, depending on what religions you chase, and what order you need to drop the cities down.

Example: Found Buddhism in Mecca. Build a monastery there, so that you can kick out the missionaries you need to Medina and Damascus. Settle Baghdad just before Code of Laws comes in. Use the missionary to convert Medina, build the monastery, and send another missionary along to Damascus. When you burn a scientist on Philosophy, that religion should end up in Baghdad as well.

Example: Found Hinduism in Tenochtitlan. Settle Teotihuacan as you race to Judaism. Revolt to OrgRel, and get Judaism and Hinduism into your new cities (Tlatelolco and Texcoco). Theology should appear in Teo.

Example: Found Buddhism in Madrid. After some thought, you decide that Madrid would make a good Shrine city. Work your way up to Code of Laws, while settling Barcelona, Seville, and Cordoba. For simplicity, lets suppose Cordoba looks like the best potential capital. Spread Buddhism (if you have a preference for Barcelona or Seville as the holy city, maybe leave that open). When Confusion sets in at Barcelona, spread it to Seville, and build the Palace in Cordoba, while running scientists and researching Mathematics. Burn the scientist to land Taoism in Madrid. (Though if you like Madrid as Shrineville from the opening, HinJewism is probably the better call - you can move the palace at your leisure).

Example: Research Meditation, but miss it by a turn. No worries. Found Bombay, Madras, and Bangalore while working towards the Oracle. Grow Bangalore while the Oracle is building. Just before it completes, whip Bombay and Madras. Spread Confusion, while running scientists and researching Mathematics. When the Great Scientist is born, whip Bombay and Madras again, then cash in the Scientist for Philosophy.

It would be better if you settled the cities in another order, so that the city where you wanted the religion was founded earlier. But it won't always be possible to prioritize your Shrines over other strategic concerns.

The missionaries aren't strictly necessary, but there's enough chance involved that I wouldn't be too happy trying this without them. Which means that at least one of Monotheism/Meditation is going to be important to ensuring this gambit comes off. (If you were only going to have three cities when the last religion comes in, you might be able to get by because of the free missionary).

When everything breaks right, and you find your perfect target city early, you can take advantage of BudHinJewism to get the job done. I think more often in practice you'll be looking at combining christianity/confucianism/taoism.

Disclaimer: this is all just analysis based on reason and deciphering the code. I haven't actually tried any of these to see if they work.

Edit: if you are reading this, the information you want is probably over here.

 

[Pantastic]

If my game isn't done by the modern era, then I'll usually end up racing to finish my victory before someome else launches a spaceship, plus I've heard lots of people talk about how they lost a game by just 1-2 turns to an AI spaceship. How much would an extra 5-10 normal-speed turns be worth to you in that kind of finish? Because that's what spritual gives you even if you don't use it to its fullest by switching at the drop of a hat.

It's easy to say '1 turn of anarchy, who cares?' but when you add it up over the course of the game, it's quite a bit of development.