[BTS] How to play Stalin effectively? (Monarch level training)

Master_Of_Ideas

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540 AD

- GLH finished elsewhere: 144:gold: (that's nothing compared with the other 4 wonders, where we await more than 1000 - per single wonder!!)
- Library is in every city except Novgorod and Rostov (the newest ones), so we can go into 100% slider to use up some of the wealth
- Still no city needs to build wealth

upload_2022-7-1_12-33-21.png


Now:
- Rome: 75:gold:
- London: 30:gold:
- Rostov: 11:gold:
- Antium: 38:gold:
Without chop, just some whipping overflow by whip of forges: 154:gold:
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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560 AD

- Compass
- Now 2 smaller cities need to build wealth cause there's no better possibility

640 AD

- We got a Great Scientist
- Now we needn't Astronomy anymore
- Natural Science path is Machinery -> Optics -> bulb Astro -> CoL -> Feudalism (for vassalship) -> Civil Service (for Maceman)
- At the moment, where we have feudalism, we will go into vassalage by GA. If course we should have finished NE and maybe Parthenon until then, building an army

660 AD

- Some cities cannot build any wonders anymore, cause they have everyone 90% finished. That is a crazy situation, cause they hold ~1000 wealth in worth there
- I begin with war elephants and catas in the capital, after HE in Rome his city joins

upload_2022-7-1_13-13-23.png


upload_2022-7-1_13-13-56.png


Everything is preparing.

I like this move: Whip a building and let the overflow goes into a wonder. So I don't finish buildings the normal way, but whipping right at the end. With 20 overflow it's additionally 60 fail gold in wonder.
 
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Master_Of_Ideas

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680 AD
It's a strong juggling here,I built another 2 barracks to let start HE in 2 more cities. Rome, the future HE city, will now build a stable. With vassalage we will have quick 9/10 EXP units there. London and Moscow start building catas. When optic's there, we build Caravels in Antium and Hastings, circumvate the world and find the other AIs. We will then see their research nd trade with the lesser developed one. We have iron now, so maybe we plan some swords in our army.

760 AD
Optics. Directly bulbing astro. When the caravels are finished, I should think about finishing the wonders, especially the HE. All in all it's minimum 4000 :gold:, I think. Now we will build NE in Moscow, Parthenon elsewhere and start the GA. Then first feudalism, building HE and then spam an army under vassalage.

800 AD
Whipped 3 caravels. The overflow must be organized into wonders, so I need another turn to wait until I can get NE in Moscow. Switched to feudalism? I don't know whats better and makes more speed.

upload_2022-7-1_14-4-52.png
 

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Master_Of_Ideas

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1.6. The Conquest for the world

820 AD

WTF?!

upload_2022-7-1_14-7-18.png


840 AD

Taoism founded somewhere. Met the Dutch. Should we do open borders? Let's look at him first.

upload_2022-7-1_14-13-33.png


He hasn't built the GLH.

860 AD

130 (-104) now
Next turn Parthenon and NE finishs.

880 AD

1458 (-102) now

upload_2022-7-1_14-22-53.png


It's less than I thought...

Got CoL and Meditation for Music. Nice!


900 AD

Got another ~700 for Parthenon. Why so late?

Astronomy, finally. And met Wang Kon

upload_2022-7-1_14-31-36.png


upload_2022-7-1_14-43-11.png


Now the game is beginning to get interesting.

This is my plan:

1. Feudalism -> vassalage and bulb theology -> theocracy
2 .Build army and HE in Rome
3. Build Galleons in 3 of 4 coastal cities, maybe 4/4, when we need more.
4. Open borders with Willem, but not with Wang, but trade with Wang for fish and money, because Wang shouldn't get the trade routes to slower his development.
5. First conquering Willem with catas, swords, eles and HAs
6. Researching Civil Service first and Engineering later, building Maceman and Triboks
7. Even though we have astro now, we don't found new cities

Waiting for Feedback now.


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sampsa

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Very well played! Your failgold economy is definitely beating mine, but I don't think we will need many further techs. I lied about 800AD astro earlier btw :lol:, it was 720AD. With better play I'm sure 400AD or so is doable.

Got another ~700 for Parthenon. Why so late?
Sometimes fail gold from some cities comes next turn. I think it has to do with city order.

Now the game is beginning to get interesting.

This is my plan:

1. Feudalism -> vassalage and bulb theology -> theocracy
2 .Build army and HE in Rome
3. Build Galleons in 3 of 4 coastal cities, maybe 4/4, when we need more.
4. Open borders with Willem, but not with Wang, but trade with Wang for fish and money, because Wang shouldn't get the trade routes to slower his development.
5. First conquering Willem with catas, swords, eles and HAs
6. Researching Civil Service first and Engineering later, building Maceman and Triboks
7. Even though we have astro now, we don't found new cities
Start the war as fast as you can! See what they have and start smashing skulls. I'd certainly OB with both, they won't get trade routes because they don't have astro. Trade for every useful tech asap, if there are any.
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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Very well played! Your failgold economy is definitely beating mine, but I don't think we will need many further techs. I lied about 800AD astro earlier btw :lol:, it was 720AD. With better play I'm sure 400AD or so is doable.

Yes, I also think. When we had failgolded Artemis, it would give us right before the first war was ended long time 100% slider. That was one of my major mistakes, I think.
Thanks! Yes, I think, I should try that in other games too. The OR trait was helpful in this case, it brought 2-3 additional hammers in every city every turn, where wonders are built. That can sum up greatly, additionally to fast libs, granaries and forges.

Sometimes fail gold from some cities comes next turn. I think it has to do with city order.
Maybe it's because there can be only 1 failgold evaluated at a time. So when 2 wonders were begon and finished same turn, it needs 2 turns.



See, the list lists every city only once.

Start the war as fast as you can! See what they have and start smashing skulls.

I thought about a well-prepared Blitzkrieg again. 3 major cities attacked with 3 galleons full of units each. Goal is vassalship, then give back cities.

I'd certainly OB with both, they won't get trade routes because they don't have astro. Trade for every useful tech asap, if there are any.

It's not symmetric? So only I can get the trade-route, not him?
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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940 AD

We won't bulb theocracy, cause I get it in 1 single turn.
Now we switched to caste, hereditary and vassalage. Not sure about caste, cause it will give only some minor more :gp:
I switch back when I get into theocracy in 5 turns.

Teching civil service now to get maceman.

960 AD

Let's look, what they have.

Amsterdam is sweet.

upload_2022-7-1_21-54-23.png


Wang Kon is better:

upload_2022-7-1_21-55-7.png


We focus on catas now. And galleons!
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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1020 AD

We got engineering, civil service, theology and now guilds (updating horse archers!). Next is paper to get some look into their country.

We decide for taking amsterdam, rotterdam and utrecht, because of the flat area. When we land, we block the paths to get inside the city. Every city needs 3-4 siege weapons. To make things easier, we just could attack 2 cities and try to pess capitulation then.

upload_2022-7-1_22-13-28.png
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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1080 AD

We set sail.

First troop:
upload_2022-7-1_22-36-1.png


Second troop:
upload_2022-7-1_22-36-55.png


I hope, that's enough to blitzkrieg the Dutch.

We now have gunpowder, now going for liberalism - and opening a second GA.now. We need a second transport full of troops for Wang.
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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1110 AD

Right before attack

upload_2022-7-1_22-53-11.png


9 galleons with 4 soldiers each will go into amsterdam and rotterdam now.


1130 AD

Got in with nearly no casualities. But Willem don't want to capitulate yet...

upload_2022-7-1_23-3-3.png


1140 AD

He recognized, he's chanceless

upload_2022-7-1_23-6-48.png


After giving back the cities and sharing the resources we now have stone and gold... get some wonders now? ;-)

No, we want to bring our troops in.

upload_2022-7-1_23-9-40.png


1200 AD:

Formed army to conquer Wang. 1 army from land, 2 from sea.

upload_2022-7-1_23-31-36.png


upload_2022-7-1_23-32-25.png


I'm just bored ; )
But when there would be more enemies, I would had go OR again and would did the same again, spending another ~30 turns in a rotation system for failgolding.

1220 AD

3 cities fallen with nearly no casualities

upload_2022-7-1_23-43-30.png


Will he capitulate?

1230 AD:

upload_2022-7-1_23-45-19.png


Fine!

upload_2022-7-1_23-47-33.png


Well.... that was quick.

upload_2022-7-2_0-6-54.png
 
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Master_Of_Ideas

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Win in 184 turns - 1240 AD

Biggest learnings:

1. With floodplains it's better to start with Pottery than BW
2. Temple of Artemis is really weak, better failgold it
3. The religional path with founding a religion can be strong, but must match inside a whole concept, e.g. failgolding
4. Failgolding is extremely strong, e.g. used in a rotation system. When we are IND and have the right resources, we get 2,5 multiplier for wealth instead of 1. When additionally OR and forges, even multiplier 3. Then we can finish the wonder and make much more gold than just building wealth.
5. Well-prepared blitzkriegs are an interesting form of military conflict...
6. Going into astronomy very quick is an interesting way to get more commerce and win. Bulbing can make 60% of the way.
7. Built wealth/research doen't multiply by libraries or markets (didn't know that before)

Thanks @sampsa , @BornInCantaloup , @Noble Zarkon , @konata_LS , @Fippy , @soundjata , @ArchGhost , @jnebbe , @Gwaja ! You are great! :worship::worship::worship:

This was a great step into a higher difficulty.:king:
 

sampsa

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Win in 184 turns - 1240 AD
That is an excellent win date, though I'm sure with maximal focus on winning asap you could shave off many turns. I haven't finished my game yet, but I'm aiming at roughly 1100AD or earlier. I must say that your game was in many ways better than mine. I will likely win earlier because my tech path was more focused on actually winning. What you showcased is how to set up an empire than can tech quickly and that's a very important skill in the future. Perhaps the most important in the whole game.

1. With floodplains it's better to start with Pottery than BW
I would hesitate to generalize like this. The extra :hammers: in the city center means that you are not pressed to get more :hammers: - it's fast to get 2nd warrior out to fog bust. Without extra :hammers: it feels very early for cottages (even fp). Also monarch tech costs especially on small world size are low, so you can get away with going BW first (i.e. you won't find yourself in a :commerce:-hole like you might on deity). Faster expansion is very valuable!

2. Temple of Artemis is really weak, better failgold it
Yes, most early wonders are underwhelming. Mids is great, GLH is insane under the right circumstances, Oracle is good sometimes. Focusing on wonders will hold you back. Focusing on expansion is a lot better.

3. The religional path with founding a religion can be strong, but must match inside a whole concept, e.g. failgolding
Well, again depends quite a lot and I tend to ignore religious techs. Only monarchy is a good tech in that line. But yes with marble+IND failing ToA can be very strong.

edit: let me re-phrase that a bit. I tend to ignore religious line early. After writing and initial expansion going for CoL can be a good idea, through myst-medi-ph intending to bulb philo.

4. Failgolding is extremely strong, e.g. used in a rotation system. When we are IND and have the right resources, we get 2,5 multiplier for wealth instead of 1. When additionally OR and forges, even multiplier 3. Then we can finish the wonder and make much more gold than just building wealth.
:thumbsup:

5. Well-prepared blitzkriegs are an interesting form of military conflict...
:thumbsup: Always win the war as fast as you can.

6. Going into astronomy very quick is an interesting way to get more commerce and win. Bulbing can make 60% of the way.
:thumbsup:

7. Built wealth/research doen't multiply by libraries or markets (didn't know that before)
:thumbsup:

Congrats on an awesome game! It turned out you are not as stubborn as I previously assumed and you learned a lot from this game. ;)

This was a great step into a higher difficulty.:king:
Indeed. I encourage you to move to immortal asap, your skills are easily good enough. Maybe a few games of emperor if you feel like you need more confidence.
 
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Master_Of_Ideas

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2. An completely other map: Earth2 generator in normal BTS

upload_2022-7-2_21-34-24.png


It seems, that there are 6 AIs.

Now we want to use our learnings. I want to document this game here, in hope to validate the former shown skill.

When you have feedback, let me know. I will play a bit quicker and stop more seldom than last game.
 

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Master_Of_Ideas

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2.1. Starting situation and starting decisions (first 20 turns)

upload_2022-7-2_21-38-47.png


This looks very interesting. I would decide to SIP on the plains hill cause of the safe food. Maybe the plains hill contains copper? The north seems to contain forest, some plains, some grasslands. Because everything seems okay and not further to optimize I settle first and thenafter move the scout.

upload_2022-7-2_21-42-41.png


OK, that's what I assumed. Because the southern area could share food sources, this is the first area to scout for expansion.

Techs are a no-brainer:
AH -> BW

upload_2022-7-2_21-45-22.png


Jungle are without any early usable tiles... we scout the east at first, maybe there's a place, where we could build a city, which shares pig? Let's go around.

3880 BC
Get known to hammurabi.

upload_2022-7-2_21-51-18.png


He has strong bowman, which makes horse archer attacks interesting, but no axes rush. We should watch out now...

3760 BC

Met Churchill (Protective, Charismatic) and Qin Shi (Protective, IND). This game seems to be much harder than that before in aspect of early neighbors...

upload_2022-7-2_21-57-16.png


3680 BC
Now met Justinian in the north.

3640 BC
Found a tribal village with a map.

3560 BC
Spot A seems to be an OK spot for second city, sharing 1 ele, having rivertiles for commerce and having corn. Justinian in the north has marble and founded buddhism. He could be an interesting early aim.

upload_2022-7-2_22-3-0.png


3520 BC
Worker and AH ready. We improve pig first, of course. Starting BW now.

3440 BC
Horses! But directly next to Churchill... we should settle here soon.

upload_2022-7-2_22-7-11.png


But this area is not really good... maybe as third city?

upload_2022-7-2_22-8-29.png


3320 BC

This area is only great for Churchill... well.... this game seems to get much more harder.

upload_2022-7-2_22-10-4.png
 

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Master_Of_Ideas

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3240 BC

We go for Worker-Warrior-Worker. There are just 2 interesting food-tiles, so the possibility of more chopping seems stronger than the other options.

upload_2022-7-2_22-15-53.png


We met Boudicca. Well... some warmongers here, and she has founded hinduism, so she's the natural opponent of Justinian.

3160 BC

The situation is now a bit clearer. We are boxed in.

upload_2022-7-2_22-21-32.png


Next improvement will be the elephants. But we need to do some decisions:

1. Where to scout next? We cannot go into the north, cause Justin border-popped because of holy city. We could give a look to Hammurabi to get known, if he has copper (when not, we could think about a horse archer rush). We could try to find Boudicca. Or we could scout the jungle in the southern area.

2. Where to settle? Spot A seems natural, it's commerce spot. Spot B1 has the horses, but no food. Spot B2 shares the cows, but needs some turns to grow into the horses. And it grows against Churchills capital... B1 is harder to defend than B2, because of the hills.

3. How is your plan, when there's no copper around? Worker stealing seems not attractive cause of the strong neighbors...

Any suggestions?
 

sampsa

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1. In general I just fog bust and don't value scouting very highly. Though you are correct in that knowing whether Ham has copper is of some value. I think Justin is another possible target, due to non-PRO.

2. I think if you want HA-rush, you need to go B1 or 1S of that. A is a better city though and you can always go for cats.

3. HA or cats. Again a super tight map so I think you are quite forced to go for an early war.
 

BornInCantaloup

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Oh, you won the other map, congrats !
With 2 workers, you can go settler -> settler, so there's no need to settle B first. Just settle the stronger site first. It also gives you some time to go Agri before The Wheel.
Here, you can grow to size 3 on a partial warrior (you'll complete it later). Improve 1 ivory, so your city has pigs/cows/ivory to work. Chop chop chop.
I'm not too sure on your timings (growth & bronze). Alternatively, you can grow to size 4 and improve both ivories.

Remain aware that Bronze Working may change the way you want to settle (copper). As it is, I prefer the A spot 1N1E as it is a stronger late game commerce site.
Be sure to chop 1 forest N or NW of Moscow, so as to speed up your settler's travel time.

The B spot is only good for the horses (which are an important resource). Don't lock yourself into a particular location yet. 1N and 1S of the horses are also options.

You will likely be too late for it but there is a conceivable C spot near England, by the green cows.

Keep on exploring (especially the coastline) for food specials. Isn't there anything in the South ?

At this point, the plan is to set up the basis for a productive Empire. Acquire cities, have the means to research into the Classical Era (Alphabet or other like HBR).
Pottery and Granaries are very close down the line once you have your first 3/4 cities.
If you get copper, maybe the plan can be altered and an Axe rush is feasable.

You can make a stop when Moscow reaches size 3 (or earlier), if you're unsure how to proceed.
Good luck !
 
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Master_Of_Ideas

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Thanks! I think the way settler-settler can be the strongest.

2.2. We found our empire and prepare for early war

3000 BC - two turns before BW

Hammurabi:
We went to the hill SW of his BFC and we saw... that we see nothing. He has horses nearby, but his pigs are unimproved yet, one hut marks the use of woods. Maybe he has no second agricultural food resource?

Additionally Justin has problems with bandits...

upload_2022-7-3_21-17-27.png


We build a second warrior first, which takes 2 turns. Growing takes 3 turns.

upload_2022-7-3_21-21-0.png


2920 BC

Our last player is Gilgamesh.

upload_2022-7-3_21-23-34.png


So we have 2 AGG, 3 PROT, no financial, no philosophical, just 1 industrious opponent.
Gilga knows Churchill and Boudicca, which means he is sitting somewhere in the west.

We found Copper nearby:

upload_2022-7-3_21-31-39.png


So I will settle A2 for sure and B1 or B3. 1S of horses has no possibility to build up even a 3F farm... The B-City can be a good long-term hammer city


@BornInCantaloup :
I don't really understand why 1N1E could be stronger than A1. Of course, it has more grasstiles, but it cannot work as a helper city for capital, which can use the cottages together. A1 shares 3 green spots an is a bit more expensive, has more problems in term of border pressure, and when Constantinople falls, it shares grassland tiles again... it feels like the longterm-advantage comes very late... can you explain why 1N1E could be strongest on mid-longterm, when there's no copper? What would be your preferred long-term setting?

But nevertheless, we should change to A2. Having copper on grasslands helps us with growing.
Thanks for the hint with the horses. We could settle 1N at the new Spot B3. This gives us not only an additional hammer, but 3 grasstiles longterm... but we lose the soon improved elephants...and get more border conflict with churchill... mhh..

The south: After I saw the jungle, I stopped the exploration there. But maybe I should go there after Hammurabi.

The Copper source is the only one in the known world...
 

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Master_Of_Ideas

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2920 BC

We now have our last turn in soze 2 and spend the hammers in starting a barracks.

Next turn we need to decide whether growing size 4 or building settler directly. I tend to build directly, cause 3>4 will take more time than 2>3.

Research: Wheel -> Pottery .> Writing -> Alphabet, cause Maths -> Construction will take longer and Alpha let's us look into our opponents techs.

2880 BC

upload_2022-7-3_21-54-25.png


Variant 1: Settler directly:
40 chop, 14 per round needs 4 rounds

Variant 2: Growing first:
Grow in 3 (when we work the woods), thenafter 15 per round, takes again 4 rounds with 40 chop

So we lose 3 turns and gain not really much. 2 Settlers dirctly seems to be the stronger variant.

2800 BC

Hammurabis capital is flat:

upload_2022-7-3_22-4-1.png


We don't know everything about him, so focussing Justin could be the better way until we have Writing. I don't want to take the risk to come in against spears and bowmen... Justin could be the far easier aim.

2600 BC

St. Petersburg founded.

upload_2022-7-3_22-13-4.png


The first, what our worker will do, is building a road between St. Peteryburg and the river.

Well... now we need to some micro-decisions what we will do:

1. Improve corn or copper first?
2. What to build in St. Petersburg? Barracks, warrior or worker?
3. When is the best time to turn into slavery? My thought was doing that, when the second settler is on his way.
4. B1 or the more risky B3?

Global strategy:
Axe-rush Constantinople, maybe combined with an early workersteal to take a look at Justins land. After that consolidate with failgold economy (Justin has marble), maybe even trying for oracle too to oracle HBR again. When hammu has no copper, prepare HA-rush for him. After that the game seems to be won.
 

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BornInCantaloup

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I don't really understand why 1N1E could be stronger than A1. Of course, it has more grasstiles, but it cannot work as a helper city for capital, which can use the cottages together. A1 shares 3 green spots an is a bit more expensive, has more problems in term of border pressure, and when Constantinople falls, it shares grassland tiles again... it feels like the longterm-advantage comes very late... can you explain why 1N1E could be strongest on mid-longterm, when there's no copper? What would be your preferred long-term setting?
Yes, that's a fair point, your A1 spot is a stronger helper, which is relevant !

Moscow is still size 2, right ?
Starting on the Barracks is a good move. There is a chance hammers would be lost if you started on a warrior and went settler -> settler.
Size 3 next turn. 2 chops give you a settler in 5 turns ---> you don't need to improve the second ivory for now. You can chop riverside grassland instead to get that speedy settler and prepare for cottage tiles.

Given the location of copper,
No-Food-Horses drastically lose in value.
If there aren't any more food sources to be seen, I'd consider the following options (always good to consider, even if to decide against) :
- 2 cities Axeman rush (Justinian seems like a good target : close by)
- extra settler tries to grab the cows by England. That city would need some culture eventually. Some amount of roads would also help set grab it faster.


X-post : yes, Constantinople best target. Logistics say so and not AGG/PRO leader. Checking AIs for units is also a good idea at some point ("Soon our numberless Archers will destroy you").
I see you didn't complete the second camp, well played !
Now you can if you grow Moscow to 4 or you can chop the second settler still at size ". (not sure of Moscow's status)
You can send 1 worker improve the corn and 1 worker remains by Moscow, if you go for the 3 cities line. If 2 cities line, both workers should improve St Petersburg, probably.
corn vs copper first depends on the timing of your Barracks in Moscow. Probably copper first, yes ?
Barracks first in St Petersburg if 2 cities line. If 3 cities, improve corn first, grow to size 2, chop worker.

Choices are a good thing to have :)
To me, the question is : are you operating from 2 or 3 cities, here ?
If you go 2 cities, a 3rd worker may still be worth it, if only to chop harder. In that case, timings, again, matter. Moscow at size 4 can provide the worker. Corn may be best improved first.
 
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