[BTS] How to play Stalin effectively? (Monarch level training)

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Hmmm... is there a specific reason why you would choose to let Augustus live? Did he have any useful techs you wanted to extort from? Also, I question why the need to build The Temple of Artemis. There is hardly going to be any foreign trade route of significance, and even for a wonder lover like myself, I almost never build that wonder. Better to concentrate all your effort into the war and finish it. Then you can claim the entire continent all to yourself and tech straight toward Astronomy. That should be the goal, in my opinion.

When Augustus has a city of size 1 and 5 archers in it, the conquest would had only costs, but gives me nothing. Peace gives me sailing (100 for free).

I should get a look on him and then decide. I want to conquer his city, so letting him grow a bit and maybe later attacking with elephants and catas is an easy victory, ehich can be done later. The for let him exist further are not that important for now, the lost cow in Rome for his border pop neither, cause I have 2 floodplains, another cow and the ivory to work on..

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Ahhh.... I misconcepted something!

Victoria isn't philosophical. Means she need 50 turns from 1520 BC until she gets her Great Priest. We now have 700 BC, means 13+12 turns around. She need another 25 turns. When I want her to build the shrine, I need 25 turns more, where I don't conquer London or the holy city... I can get techs from her meanwhile, maybe progress fast than conquering the cities myself, but it seems mandatory, that I must block her from iron.

Her actual cities have 3-4 archers inside, so 8 horse archers per city would do the job, when there's no wall.

So again we question, what's our best way:

A) After Artemis building settler and settle the north to prevent Vicci getting iron (but that is expensive! I wouldn't settle there if Vicci wasn't here)
B) After Artemis building archers and horse archers to block the roads of victoria until catas are ready, maybe trying to get one or 2 cities directly
C) After Artemis building research to come to construction quicker

Construction needs ~15 turns, so I can build 4-5 eles and 3 catas until she gets her shrine. This way maybe I can get 2 cities simultaneously.

 

[5tephen]

I don't know if Kmod changes things aside from combat but I would always avoid Temple of Artemis and great priests.

If you generate a great priest and build a shrine now, there's 6 cities on your landmass some of which will have the religion. For each city with the religion your shrine will generate 1/turn. A great scientist could be used to bulb 1300 or so. So even if you got up to 12 cities on your small continent, built wealth buildings in the shrine city, and built missionaries to spread to all cities, it would be difficult to break even on having the scientist until around 90-100 turns. Similar to compound interest on an investment you also gain far more from the immediacy of now than in 100 turns. Furthermore, after alphabet/currency, you can build / so spent on missionaries and wealth multiplier buildings are an additional delay to break even point on the shrine - even before that failgold in a wonder would offer a better return on your .

Shrine might be better on a huge map and a captured shrine can definitely be nice. N.B. waiting for Victoria to build a shrine is far from guaranteed - what if she has built e.g. a library and pops a scientist instead of priest?

Temple of Artemis I get actively annoyed if I capture it as increases the value of my great merchant missions if built in an AI's city that I then send my great merchant to.

 

[Gwaja]

When Augustus has a city of size 1 and 5 archers in it, the conquest would had only costs, but gives me nothing. Peace gives me sailing (100 for free).

I should get a look on him and then decide. I want to conquer his city, so letting him grow a bit and maybe later attacking with elephants and catas is an easy victory, ehich can be done later. The for let him exist further are not that important for now, the lost cow in Rome for his border pop neither, cause I have 2 floodplains, another cow and the ivory to work on..

I don't understand your logic at all. You seem very distracted and not very focused on the most important task at hand, which is finishing off Augustus. Instead, you twiddled your thumb and took your sweet time by building Temple of Artemis while waging a war out of just two cities, when you could have used those hammers to more horse archers, which surely would have helped you finish off Augustus. His having a city with 5 archers is the product of your being not focused and being too slow. Warring with horse archers, as I previously said, is all about speed. You are wasting that advantage. And now you are talking about warring with Vicky? I don't get it at all.

You don't even need to wait until elephants and catapults... seems totally unnecessary. And the 100 beakers for sailing you are obsessing about? Just like the ivory tile you were obsessing with culture, same story it looks like. Very trivial.

Taking out one opponent at a time and thus, taking over the continent as soon as possible would be much better and efficient.

 

[sampsa]

IW brought information, how I should plan the conquest of Vicci (she has IW already!) and Augustus.

It did not give any new info. You can see their iron without IW from tile yields. Also, since you have BW and AH, all flatland mines are iron.

We made peace (10 turns).

Why though? You could've just ceased fire.

Back-looking I think, going into oracle instead of HBR was stronger, cause of the culture production, which is mostly used by getting the important hill between Moscow and Rome.

I would say definitely the opposite. That culture was a nice bonus, nothing else. With well focused play you'd rule the continent 500 BC or so.

I thought about getting the shrine and letting Vicci build a shrine is more important long-term than conquering her fast.

Shrines are very weak. It's a few pennies at the cost of a great person. Philo bulb is over 1000 even on monarch, correctly timed first golden age is worth about 5000 to me, assuming you've built your empire well.

1. Start: Going into Pottery instead of BW was very strong

Not a huge difference.

2. Culture: Going into culture instead of pure force was strong, cause it helps overall development and gave the important spots

Disagree 100%.

3. Going into oracle instead of HBR was strong, nice bonus was the founding of hinduism, which will give me a steady income soon (Oracle and Artemis give Great Priests soon, I will soon have 3 shrines).

Disagree 100%.

4. Going into judaism instead of war may be wrong, but it prevents the quicker development on other continents and granting me a third shrine...

It was certainly wrong, as would be building a shrine.

Sometimes it's not clear to answer what is the best way to win. I would assume that my style would give me some cities less, but more long-term advantages like shrines, more progress in research. But what is better? I don't know.

Well, I have 10 years of deity experience, so consider the possibility that I know better.

It's a pity the game is K-Mod. If it were not, I would like to see your playing result at 0AD and compare with mine. Then we could better differentiate what would be the best way.

Yes. It might be a humbling experience for you, but likely you still wouldn't listen.

 

[sampsa]

OK, you baited me into installing K-Mod. Well done.

T88

Spoiler :

T34 I think it's the same position as you had? Settler reached cow spot. Going to chop a 2nd worker in capital, then start working on settler to claim the rice-spot, which is fog busted by a warrior. Switched to slavery. A bear ate my scout.

Revealed horse, Aug settled rice as 2nd spot, so decided to go for 2-city HA-rush. The timing is very different than normal because small world size plus monarch makes techs very cheap. Perhaps 3rd worker was better than building chariots, no big deal either way I think. Should've gone archery before HBR though, could use an archer or two. No time for stables surely.

Declared T59 with 3HA, 3cha, 2warr. Surely enough vs monarch AI? Nope. K-Mod seems to spam archers in capital. Also with better positioning could've taken the worker and archer across the river.

Went for the rice-city (hindu holy city!) first, leaving warriors to bait him out of Rome. It worked, and he is gone T66 despite some losses. Annoyingly 1xp short of GG. Going construction just because that line was discussed. I think with the same doctrine Vicky should be gone in 10 turns or so. Just bait archers out of capital with warriors and then enter with HAs.

Declared this turn. Haven't seen metal units, and not sure if that would matter a lot. Just bombard, weaken with collateral and mop up. Going calendar, because need some and it's on the astro path, which I think is needed to win. Unless this continent is enough for domination?

There was no re-loading or re-playing. Certainly could improve a lot on this, as my initial attack was kind of a fail.

K-mod remarks

• AI spams archers in capital (up to 8 or so) so I think HAs are a lot weaker than in bts and construction-line gains strength
• do AIs build wonders at all, or does the game just not tell you about it? Nothing built by T88 in my game
• there is definitely no overflow into gold. Actually there is a brilliant solution. If you put 130 to a catapult (50), it overflows directly 30 to another catapult and with the rest 50 you can do what you please

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

OK, you baited me into installing K-Mod. Well done.

Hehe, yea. And it's the proof, that we can get construction some turns earlier. I think about some cases: What, if the AI has not let it bait out and what, if the AI has build much more archers and had built walls? Or when Augustus had Iron and whipped 1-2 spearman? Then an attack of this form had a problem. So what had you done in this case?

In my game I had the opportunity to spy him to attack at a time, when victory seems makeable.
What do you do, when your opponent seems unexpected strong in defence, and you didn't saw it because you had no possibility to look inside him?

I see my game a bit in this form: Get information first and attack, when u know, that you will win (then maybe a worker-stealing is weak cause we miss the chance of open borders).

K-mod remarks

• AI spams archers in capital (up to 8 or so) so I think HAs are a lot weaker than in bts and construction-line gains strength
• do AIs build wonders at all, or does the game just not tell you about it? Nothing built by T88 in my game
• there is definitely no overflow into gold. Actually there is a brilliant solution. If you put 130 to a catapult (50), it overflows directly 30 to another catapult and with the rest 50 you can do what you please

Thanks. Yea, I also assume, that the K-Mod AI ist building much more troops, but therefore lack in development. The overflow mechanic seems other than thought at first. When whipping the warrior I got some little overflow.

I should play normal BTS again. The K-Mod-AI seems not much stronger.

_______________________

For future please let's give in some feedback more about future than about mistakes of the past (cause future decisions can still changed, past ones not). I now have the question where and how strong to settle at the right places.

I now decide this way for integrity with former decisions:
- I do peace with Augustus, when he has a citx with size 1 or too many archers inside or the walls cause conquering later and settle elsewhere seems stronger. Augustus falls with construction and catas.
- I think about going into war with Vicci to get the northern cities, not the southern ones. If she has interesting techs, I press 'em out of her before finishing
- I complete the ToA
- When a Great Priest is rising, I decide by maths: When I can bulb something really useful, that helps development and I save minimum 40 turns value of shrine, I do it. When not, I will build the shrine ; I wouldn't bulb theology, cause it doesn't help with astronomy
- I now go into a Conquest or Domination victory

Identified mistakes:
- ToA seems not strong enough and has serious disadvantages, 2 HAs instead would be better

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

OK, you baited me into installing K-Mod. Well done.

Questions about your savefile:

(1) What is the purpose about building that many troops? You have her already, 3 more catas seem much more than needed.
(2) What is the purpose about building the Great Wall?

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

675 BC

It seems better to let Augustus improve the city before I take it over, 3 archers wouldn't the problem, but can make losses. And I want a developed city more than just finishing him. So I take sailing and redeclare in 10.

 

[sampsa]

What, if the AI has not let it bait out and what, if the AI has build much more archers and had built walls? Or when Augustus had Iron and whipped 1-2 spearman? Then an attack of this form had a problem. So what had you done in this case?

Well, do you realize how early T59 HA attack is? Probably not. In bts immortal this attack would win every time. Here an attack of this form had a problem, he had too many archers. Then just do what I did and take other cities.

In my game I had the opportunity to spy him to attack at a time, when victory seems makeable.
What do you do, when your opponent seems unexpected strong in defence, and you didn't saw it because you had no possibility to look inside him

You do what I did. AI will never have 6 archers in every city that early.

I see my game a bit in this form: Get information first and attack, when u know, that you will win (then maybe a worker-stealing is weak cause we miss the chance of open borders).

Yes, that information is of value. Worker stealing was unnecessarily risky. You should've at least stopped before doing something that drastic.

I should play normal BTS again. The K-Mod-AI seems not much stronger.

Sure. It's a bit different, but I prefer bts by a mile.

For future please let's give in some feedback more about future than about mistakes of the past (cause future decisions can still changed, past ones not). I now have the question where and how strong to settle at the right places.

You won't learn like that though. You are blitzing through every meaningful decision and asking the wrong things, because you don't understand what is important.

I now decide this way for integrity with former decisions:
- I do peace with Augustus, when he has a citx with size 1 or too many archers inside or the walls cause conquering later and settle elsewhere seems stronger. Augustus falls with construction and catas.
- I think about going into war with Vicci to get the northern cities, not the southern ones. If she has interesting techs, I press 'em out of her before finishing
- I complete the ToA
- When a Great Priest is rising, I decide by maths: When I can bulb something really useful, that helps development and I save minimum 40 turns value of shrine, I do it. When not, I will build the shrine ; I wouldn't bulb theology, cause it doesn't help with astronomy
- I now go into a Conquest or Domination victory

I would just kill Augustus asap. You can't bulb anything meaningful with a prophet, which is why they are weak. So you are stuck building a shrine or settling, or saving for a golden age.

Questions about your savefile:

(1) What is the purpose about building that many troops? You have her already, 3 more catas seem much more than needed.
(2) What is the purpose about building the Great Wall?

Perhaps I didn't need that many cats indeed, it's just that I have no idea what to expect from K-mod monarch AI. are usually put towards wonders for failgold, thus I don't intend to finish it. In your position, gold would be a lot more valuable than ToA. The problem is that ToA will be finished maybe 1000AD or so, wonders are going ridiculously late in my game.

edit: You could get failgold by nearly finishing a wonder in one city, then finishing it in another city.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

600 BC

Her cities seem well-positioned. I will take them over when the time is right. For now I concentrate on construction and let her be. In sum she's giving me 4C while I can just research and don't need to think about high upkeep.


475 BC

We are right before catas. I must say, I like the actual state of eco, with 64 at 100% and 51 at 80%, the sustainable rate. I can now position my troops a way, where I can overrun Vicci when time is right. She's doing the settling for me. I will take all of her cities which come to size 2. Because she doesn't seem to interest in the iron, we have enough time to prepare and get the trade commerce meanwhile.

Culture gave me a nice spot to grab her holy city in 1 turn of horse archers.

And here it's the same.

In 1 turn I can decide whether I should build the shrine or bulb something. I still tend to build the shrine, cause bulbing seems to get me only theology, which I don't want at all.

Trigger for war with Vicci:
- Nottingham needs 2 pop
- The great priest must be born in London and sent somewhere

I prepare catas and HAs meanwhile to get as many cities as possible in 1-2 turns. After that I need to wait for growing of the last city - I can use the time for another peace-pressing technology. If she hasn't something interesting: Prepare and get her same turn when her city grows to 2.

Augustus will be eaten directly after. This makes +5 okay developed citys and a shrine maybe around 200-300 BC.

 

[sampsa]

We are right before catas. I must say, I like the actual state of eco, with 64 at 100% and 51 at 80%, the sustainable rate.

It's just that more cities is better. I have 7 cities at the same date and 3 more settlers out next turn. While my sustainable rate is weaker right now, I'm a lot ahead in tech (calendar nearly done) and my cities are a lot bigger. Just get a lot of pop and work a lot of tiles.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

I edited the above post for planning the final war.

So it seems I have conquered the continent and settled 80% of the strong places around 200 BC, most of the cities not founded by me, but by my neighbors.

What would you do then?

1. Settle the whole continent or wait?
2. Sending monks around or wait for natural spread?
3. Building court houses or not?
4. Still building army or wait until we have the time?
5. Where would you build the Moai city? And why?

I think to build these wonders:
Zeus, Great Library, Massoleum

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

It's just that more cities is better. I have 7 cities at the same date and 3 more settlers out next turn. While my sustainable rate is weaker right now, I'm a lot ahead in tech (calendar nearly done) and my cities are a lot bigger. Just get a lot of pop and work a lot of tiles.

Let's compare the state at 200 BC. I think, here are 2 different philosophies. I am curious about the details of the comparison.

A) Let the enemy build up and conquer the developed area, meanwhile squeezing things out of 'em
B) Conquer as fast as possible and building it up self

 

[sampsa]

1. Settle the whole continent or wait?
2. Sending monks around or wait for natural spread?
3. Building court houses or not?
4. Still building army or wait until we have the time?
5. Where would you build the Moai city? And why?

I think to build these wonders:
Zeus, Great Library, Massoleum

1. In general, you can afford +10 cities after astronomy (intercontinental trade routes). edit. I went currency to be able to build wealth (and +1 trade route)
2. Well, natural spread seemed super slow in my game at least. Don't know if K-mod alters it.
3. I don't think they are worth it in isolation. CoL is also not on the astro path.
4. I don't really understand what exactly you are waiting for.
5. I wouldn't build Moai.

6. I have no idea what you think you do with SoZ. GLib is cool, sure, but not on astro path. MoM is great.

Let's compare the state at 200 BC. I think, here are 2 different philosophies. I am curious about the details of the comparison.

A) Let the enemy build up and conquer the developed area, meanwhile squeezing things out of 'em
B) Conquer as fast as possible and building it up self

In general there is no contest - more cities is better. You can't expect much help from monarch AI. If you could get her to friendly and somehow accelerate the tech speed, sure she might be of use.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

1. In general, you can afford +10 cities after astronomy (intercontinental trade routes).
2. Well, natural spread seemed super slow in my game at least. Don't know if K-mod alters it.
3. I don't think they are worth it in isolation. CoL is also not on the astro path.
4. I don't really understand what exactly you are waiting for.
5. I wouldn't build Moai.

1. So you mean I stay under 10 till astro and thenafter proceed to more?
2. OK, so sending monks around could be a good idea
3. OK. Then we won't priorize that.

Question aside: I think about getting the great lib (it's incredible cheap with marble + IND) and maussoleum (the same). Would you do the same? I thought about Zeus... Zeus isn't useful in my preferred win: I want to blitzkrieg 'em.

4. I mean: When I build units instead of research, I slow my progress and grow upkeep. When I focus on buildings and economy research and build units just before I go for attack, but doing that in ALL my cities, the growth should be better than building up slowly. Or do I mistake something?

5. Interesting position, I need to think about... in the past I used the moai city as power shipyard and commerce center. But I need to do the maths whether it is efficient to do that.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

How fast would you research optics for winning the around-the-globe-race?

 

[sampsa]

1. So you mean I stay under 10 till astro and thenafter proceed to more?

That is what people in general do, yes. I went with 11, but with currency.

Question aside: I think about getting the great lib (it's incredible cheap with marble + IND) and maussoleum (the same). Would you do the same? I thought about Zeus... Zeus isn't useful in my preferred win: I want to blitzkrieg 'em.

I didn't really prioritize wonders, but astronomy. I think going for GLib is ok. MoM for sure, calendar is needed anyway for astro and you have a lot of calendar res.

I mean: When I build units instead of research, I slow my progress and grow upkeep. When I focus on buildings and economy research and build units just before I go for attack, but doing that in ALL my cities, the growth should be better than building up slowly. Or do I mistake something?

I would just take good cities asap.

Interesting position, I need to think about... in the past I used the moai city as power shipyard and commerce center. But I need to do the maths whether it is efficient to do that.

I would never consider building it without stone. Plus here you don't have a good spot for it even. Just no seafood.

How fast would you research optics for winning the around-the-globe-race?

I went straight for it after currency. It's not about circumnavigation really, but for astro. First for trade routes and resource trades, then for killing the two remaining AI.

Again, you are interested in doing a bit of this and a bit of that. Why not put all focus on winning the game as soon as possible?

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Again, you are interested in doing a bit of this and a bit of that. Why not put all focus on winning the game as soon as possible?

I just think that researching astronomy will take a long time. So we should use the time accordingly, preparing for the time, when we focus on other continents.
What would be thre distraction here? Maybe The great lib, but it's giving a good return,maybe monks, but they give a return in form of the shrine gold and quicker buildings (and wonders!). Maybe Moai, but even this will give a return in creating a shipbuilding city, which additionally produces commerce on solid 2F2C1H tiles.

I don't understand, which part of my strategy distracts me from conquest...

Is there any good way to bulb astronomy? It seems incredible expensive, meaning when I get it I have to plan some time to finish another stronger mili tech. Horse archers and catas won't help to overtake.the AIs

 

[sampsa]

I just think that researching astronomy will take a long time.

I don't understand, which part of my strategy distracts me from conquest...

Question - does it take longer if you go straight towards it or if you go all over the tech tree? Everything that you don't NEED to do but you do because of xyz is a distraction.

Maybe Moai, but even this will give a return in creating a shipbuilding city, which additionally produces commerce on solid 2F2C1H tiles.

Everything gives something, but that doesn't mean it's good. You can build ships by just whipping them in every coastal city you have.

Is there any good way to bulb astronomy? It seems incredible expensive, meaning when I get it I have to plan some time to finish another stronger mili tech. Horse archers and catas won't help to overtake.the AIs

There is a way, with a scientist. After you meet the remaining AIs, they can give you some tech trades, hopefully. I played pretty sloppily and will reach astro around 800AD.