[BTS] How to play Stalin effectively? (Monarch level training)

Master_Of_Ideas

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450 BC

3 cities build horse archers. We have already 5 HAs for Nottingham and 4 HAs for York. London has 4 archers, means we will take that after York and Nottingham.
We built the hindu-shrine, giving +4:gold: for now, because we don't want to bulb theology.

upload_2022-6-29_22-24-11.png


425 BC

Vicci completed the Great Wall... she seems to have much time :D
It brings 10:gold: failgold in St Petersburg. Quite OK, accepted! It was the 1-turn-built.

350 BC

upload_2022-6-29_22-34-15.png


Nice to know. We then eat Vicci now.

325 BC

upload_2022-6-29_22-40-26.png


Another 3 horse archers. I think thats enough for now. Catas are ready.
Vicci got a great scientist. OK, means no shrine, but academy instead. That's okay too. I wait 1 more turn to let she decide what to do with him. Better let her peacefully build an academy instead of bulbing horsehocky.
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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There is a way, with a scientist. After you meet the remaining AIs, they can give you some tech trades, hopefully. I played pretty sloppily and will reach astro around 800AD.

That could be a way of gambling. I build great lib before I go into optics and maybe even music. Because the great lib will be in my capital, it has serious chances of bringing a great scientist.
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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1.4. The great conquest of the continent

300 BC

Everything is prepared. Heisenberg has build an academy in London for sure. We will first take out York:

upload_2022-6-29_22-51-2.png


Thenafter Nottingham:

upload_2022-6-29_22-51-25.png


London next turns:

upload_2022-6-29_22-52-10.png


We can conquer 1 settler, 3 worker, Stonehenge, Great wall, an academy, buddhist holy city.

Let's go:

upload_2022-6-29_22-53-59.png


It has a granary.

upload_2022-6-29_22-56-13.png


Settler/Worker 1.

upload_2022-6-29_22-57-18.png


Nottingham and worker 2. It has a granary too.

upload_2022-6-29_22-58-47.png


A third worker was hiding in the woods.


275 BC

upload_2022-6-29_23-5-57.png


Hastings needs to grow a bit, until we can "harvest". Should we let the worker, so Vicci can improve "our" land? London will be yummi... I still need some turns.

We prepare our monks now.
 

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Master_Of_Ideas

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200 BC

Hastings i harvestable now. But I should think about London first... city defence is just 44% anymore. Maybe I just sacrifice the cata now to go in. Or is it better to wait for 1 more turn, taking Hastings first?

Hastings has 2 archers against 5 horse archers with 3 stars. London has fortified 5 archers and 1 cata.

upload_2022-6-29_23-25-38.png


175 BC

We finished calender
Well... and now seen London. Even 2-star-horse-archers have >60% chance. I just lower the city defence and then we can go in.

upload_2022-6-29_23-32-2.png


upload_2022-6-29_23-33-10.png


Lost only 1 horse archer. We could even try Hastings now in the same turn... let's do it!

upload_2022-6-29_23-33-51.png


Over and out. The war lasted 5 turns and 125 years - holy horsehocky, that's long in real times!

We got:

- 4 cities
- 5 workers
- Great Wall
- Stonehenge
- Academy of London
- 342:gold: - Now going into Currency in just 4 turns more
- Holy city of buddhism
- Well developed area with some cottages

Now while the cities recover we look after our friend Augustus...
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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1.5. How to develop a whole continent?

75 BC

Currency. Now I am not sure, what's next. I just decided for Aestetics, but there are several possibilities. Honestly - I don't like the beelining way to astronomy, cause except of Metal Casting it gives nothing for economy.

- Monarchy would give me 3 wineries and the option to switch to hereditary, when my population grows over everything
- Aestetics-Literature gives me the great lib
- Music gives me the possibility to develop with GA (not sure, if that's worth it)
- Astronomy will let me lose the Liberalism Race for sure, while with Liberalism I can get Astronomy and a nice civic for the huts

Another problem:
I think about settling at 1-2 other places. But where?

upload_2022-6-30_0-11-1.png


Spot 1 is great for gems (I have gems anyway by Augustus last city) and maybe for Moai. It has no food resource.

upload_2022-6-30_0-12-32.png


Spot 2 gives rice and some huts, maybe Moai too.

upload_2022-6-30_0-13-37.png


Spot 3 gives fur and deer,the green area is good for cottages.
Spot 4 gives fur, deer and iron and has 5 watered grasslands. And maybe theres something in the north...
Spot 5 is a quite solid space for later, enough grassy tiles on rivers.

____________________

Which of the spots would you settle in the next 5-10 turns?


Another question: I have some coastal cities with 1 seafood. Would you build a lighthouse there?

Last question: Capital could finish the mids in 18 turns. Would it be a try?

_____________________

I know, I don't focus again. But I really don't believe, Astronomy alone will be enough for a quick win. We lack development when we just focus on this, and we lack strong troops. We need much more eco. Actually 57:science: for the sustainable rate. It will grow fast.

En plus I saw, we seem to have a financial competitor...

upload_2022-6-30_0-23-43.png


upload_2022-6-30_0-34-57.png


You see any moves or microstrategies or know any guides, how to make the eco much stronger? Cottaging all is a no-brainer, but what about buildings? How about lighthouse, how about markets in the commercial-strong cities?

Thanks for hints and strategies!
 

konata_LS

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Messages
372
Maybe Moai, but even this will give a return in creating a shipbuilding city
Agree with @ sampsa. With a leader who has half-price Forge and half-price Drydock, every coastal city is shipbuilding city.

I think to build these wonders:
Zeus,
Statue of Zeus won't help you in your wars. When you invade someone, you always suffer all the war weariness while your enemy suffers 0 war weariness, because the battle is in your enemy's culture border. When an AI fights defensive wars in his own culture border (= in a tile of 100% AI culture), that AI always has no war weariness. +100% of 0 war weariness is still 0.

Sometimes getting failgold from SoZ is not a bad idea. But judging from sampsa's write-up, probably K-Mod AIs build wonders very late, which means failgold comes very late. It's quicker to research Currency and build :gold: .

Don't understand why you want a GProphet. Sometimes I even raze a captured city with SH just because I dislike the :gp: pollution. GScientists and GMerchants are much more useful than GProphets.
 

sampsa

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- Monarchy would give me 3 wineries and the option to switch to hereditary, when my population grows over everything
- Aestetics-Literature gives me the great lib
- Music gives me the possibility to develop with GA (not sure, if that's worth it)
- Astronomy will let me lose the Liberalism Race for sure, while with Liberalism I can get Astronomy and a nice civic for the huts
If you go for aesth-line, I'd definitely win music. Remember that I said 1st golden age is worth around 5000:science: for me, though that assumes pacifism and the generated weak :gp:s and the :gp:-pollution you have is hurting it.

Sure you can try to lib astro, but a few issues. It is slower than beelining astro, and the techs you get aren't very useful (beyond philo). You'll need optics anyway.
Which of the spots would you settle in the next 5-10 turns?

Another question: I have some coastal cities with 1 seafood. Would you build a lighthouse there?

Last question: Capital could finish the mids in 18 turns. Would it be a try?
I'll post a screenshot of my settlements. In general yes, seafood cities should get a lighthouse. You can try to get Mids, though with all the :)-resources you have I'm not sure if it's that useful.

I know, I don't focus again. But I really don't believe, Astronomy alone will be enough for a quick win.
Yes. You don't believe anything what you are told. It might even be a good thing for learning, but you can't remain pigheaded forever, you need to learn from your mistakes.

You see any moves or microstrategies or know any guides, how to make the eco much stronger? Cottaging all is a no-brainer, but what about buildings? How about lighthouse, how about markets in the commercial-strong cities?
You can consider a market in a strong capital. Lighthouse for seafood. Buildings don't have much time to pay back if your full effort is on actually winning the game as fast as you can.
 

sampsa

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1AD screenshot
Spoiler :
I think you should settle the fur-spot, but why on earth would you not claim deer? :food: is very important. I went on fur to get it hooked up immediately, intending to chop library to get deer, but also 1N is fine. I chose to not settle crabs, but settled 11th 1N of gems. Not sure if that was a great idea though, because gems are claimed SW of Rostov anyway.

I went 70% slider for the screenshot, but obviously really going 0% until libraries. I don't think 120:science: at breakeven gold 1AD is anything great, more on the weaker side, but it will do. Cities are still growing anyway so it will improve.

Civ4ScreenShot0398.JPG
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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50 BC

Declared war to Augustus

25 BC

We stand right in front of his last city, killed 2 archers already.

upload_2022-6-30_20-40-54.png


1 AD

upload_2022-6-30_20-51-5.png


States:
9/9 granaries
5/9 libraries (the 4 build it now or in some turns)
6/9 hindu, 1 monk on the way, 1 monk is built
2 settlers actually built
10 workers

Sustainable research: ~50:science:

Maussoleum finished in 5
 

sampsa

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Good job! :goodjob:

5/9 libraries (the 4 build it now or in some turns)
I don't think you need libraries everywhere, though it's not a horrible thing to build. It's just that with access to religion and music soon, the culture they provide is close to meaningless, so you are doing it just for +25%:science:.

Maussoleum finished in 5
I think this is a very good situation to fail gold it in other cities (because no AI is going to beat you to it and you don't get immediate benefit from it). Perhaps even put chops in. 2,5:gold: per :hammers: is a decent exchange rate (oh, 3:gold: with forge and OR).
 
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Master_Of_Ideas

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Comparison with the scenario of direct war @sampsa :
Mine 25 AD vs your 1 AD

It looks quite similar in the improvements and settlements:

upload_2022-6-30_21-8-15.png


upload_2022-6-30_21-6-39.png


Pros:
- Religion all over the continent and built shrine, religion giving +25%:hammers: buildings
- Economy seems a bit stronger: I build wealth nowhere, and the overall :science: and :gold: are just a little bit lower
- More military experience cause of longer wars
- 4 more wonders, 5th building
- Much Stronger GP-production (in Moscow 5:gp: prophet, 2:gp: merchant, 2:gp: artist soon, in London 2:gp: spy, 2:gp: prophet)
- More Techs: Alphabet, Pre-techs for monarchy
- Got an academy at london, makes it a ideal location for building research

Cons:

- Cumae not ready yet
- 1 city less
- Smaller cities
- Stronger :gp:-pollution (thanks for the concept!)

_______________________

Now the core difference is that I will have bigger problems spawning a great scientist, but this is counteract by getting more :gp: ). Now 2 questions:

1. Where would you build the great lib? I think about moscow for the :gp:, but using the academy in london seems interesting too.
2. How would you use the Great priests? I could build a buddhism shrine and spread the religion, settle him or spare him for GA.
3. Would you build a GP farm in Cumae, like I thought because there's the most free food?

I now see this mistake:
Founding judaism did't gave me any advantages
Building artemis and overweighing shrines

Not sure still, if it's a mistake:
Not thinking about the :gp:pollution makes harder to plan for future GPs (even though it makes another GA - 12 turns - easier)
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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Good job! :goodjob:

Thank you. And you gave me the right hints at rthe right time, that I didn't distract myself completely :hatsoff:


I don't think you need libraries everywhere, though it's not a horrible thing to build. It's just that with access to religion and music soon, the culture they provide is close to meaningless, so you are doing it just for +25%:science:.

Mhh.... the most cities seem to be :commerce:-rich. Just Moscow, Rome and London seem to have stronger :hammers:. While Moscow and Rome get :commerce: by cottages, elephants, marble and planatation and the rivers, London has the academy, which makes building research profitable. This way I would assume that every city will profit from library. Dunno what I would do about university or market/grocer, but library is great.


I think this is a very good situation to fail gold it in other cities (because no AI is going to beat you to it and you don't get immediate benefit from it). Perhaps even put chops in. 2,5:gold: per :hammers: is a decent exchange rate.

That's a nice idea. On how many turns would you do that? Not that I risk this building. I could let London build it first, meanwhile chopping and mining the hills there. Building market meanwhile in Moscow?
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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upload_2022-6-30_21-55-21.png


Holy shi***

I tried that on St Petersburg. Chopping one forest with the bonusses is crazy. I plan 3 forests... the other ones 24H and 20H base...

Thanks for that little trick. This is really strong.
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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One moment.... may it be better to build Wonders instead of research?

Example:

Zeus 300:hammers: with +175%
To build in 5 cities, I need

4x250
1x300
~1300 production, means 1300/2,75=473 base hammers.

With 473 base hammers I could build 473 wealth.
When no AI finishs is: I would had 4x250=1000 failgold and I would had the statue
When any AI finishs is: I would had 5x250=1250 failgold and I would not had the statue (better case)
______________

To be completely crazy: Every city could build wonders in a rotation system. When AI finishs the wonder, I get a crazy shi*load full of money, when no AI finishs it, I finish it for myself and get a smaller shi*load and the wonder. But everything is better than building just wealth or research.

This works with:

Zeus, Parthenon, NationalEpic, HeroEpic

And it would work with every other wonder too, though I have +75% because of the religion. So I could try to build every wonder the whole time. Well, maybe not the expensive ones or highends (sistine, pyramids), but it's the way to get crazy much money on a quick way.

_____________

Or do I forget anything?

Does failgold multiply by market?

General questions: How do you think about monastries?
 
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sampsa

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I think you value your position way too high. Well, value wrong things to be exact. You are behind in empire development and in population. Yes, you do have some religious branch techs over me, but they are not needed. Your future tech rate is worse, your academy is in a weaker location (mine is in Moscow). You aren't building wealth because you still need to build other things. Shrines and weak wonders are meaningless, maybe even bad due to :gp:-pollution. MoM will rescue a bit there though, maybe you can run even two golden ages. But the reason to run golden ages is to get good types of :gp:: GS or GM, thus it can transform bad :gp: to good :gp:.

1. Where would you build the great lib? I think about moscow for the :gp:, but using the academy in london seems interesting too.
Where you can get it fastest would be my way.

2. How would you use the Great priests? I could build a buddhism shrine and spread the religion, settle him or spare him for GA.
I would definitely spare for GA. There is no way in the world a shrine could ever compete.

3. Would you build a GP farm in Cumae, like I thought because there's the most free food?
No. You already have several big cities, any of them is a better choice.

I now see this mistake:
Founding judaism did't gave me any advantages
Building artemis and overweighing shrines
:thumbsup:

Not sure still, if it's a mistake:
Not thinking about the :gp:pollution makes harder to plan for future GPs (even though it makes another GA - 12 turns - easier)
Biggest issue is that the price for next :gp: goes up.

Mhh.... the most cities seem to be :commerce:-rich. Just Moscow, Rome and London seem to have stronger :hammers:. While Moscow and Rome get :commerce: by cottages, elephants, marble and planatation and the rivers, London has the academy, which makes building research profitable. This way I would assume that every city will profit from library. Dunno what I would do about university or market/grocer, but library is great.
Well. You are playing a clearly longer game than me, since you are not going straight towards astro.

That's a nice idea. On how many turns would you do that? Not that I risk this building. I could let London build it first, meanwhile chopping and mining the hills there. Building market meanwhile in Moscow?
I wouldn't build a market, rather wealth, but it depends on how many turns you think the game will last. I think I would finish MoM only when you are ready to start a golden age.

Holy shi***

I tried that on St Petersburg. Chopping one forest with the bonusses is crazy. I plan 3 forests... the other ones 24H and 20H base...

Thanks for that little trick. This is really strong.
Yes, failgold is a very strong tactic!

One moment.... may it be better to build Wonders instead of research?

Example:

Zeus 300:hammers: with +175%
To build in 5 cities, I need

4x250
1x300
~1300 production, means 1300/2,75=473 base hammers.

With 473 base hammers I could build 473 wealth.
When no AI finishs is: I would had 4x250=1000 failgold and I would had the statue
When any AI finishs is: I would had 5x250=1250 failgold and I would not had the statue (better case)
______________

To be completely crazy: Every city could build wonders in a rotation system. When AI finishs the wonder, I get a crazy shi*load full of money, when no AI finishs it, I finish it for myself and get a smaller shi*load and the wonder. But everything is better than building just wealth or research.

This works with:

Zeus, Parthenon, NationalEpic, HeroEpic

And it would work with every other wonder too, though I have +75% because of the religion. So I could try to build every wonder the whole time. Well, maybe not the expensive ones or highends (sistine, pyramids), but it's the way to get crazy much money on a quick way.

_____________

Or do I forget anything?

Does failgold multiply by market?
No, market doesn't multiply. Forge and OR do multiply the :hammers: of course. The issue with Zeus and Parth is that you need to finish them to get gold. You are definitely finishing HE, so that's the best of those to failgold.
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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OK, thank you :)
Now I believe that I am seeing things clear. I thought in former games, that libraries contribute to built research. That's wrong for now.

OK, then we can go accordingly here. Let's do some turns.

My eco-planning:
- I build every GP-building into moscow
- I try to start the most primitive wonders, especially Zeus and Parthenon, cause the net :gold: value for failgold is far exceeding the input
- I settle the iron-deer-fur-city

I had started Market in Moscow already, so I go back to 25 AD and progress there with keeping in mind the failgold strategy and that building wealth is better than building research.

Let's go:


75 AD

- Got aesthetics: We now start Zeus in Moscow, Parthenon in London and MoM in Antium. If necessary we finish everything ourselves, if te AI does, even better.
- Sun Tzu added to the chariot. Now I have a rank 3 healer with healing in movement.

125 AD

- Settler finished in Rome, we settle the eastern gem spot now
- Monk will sent hinduism to Cumae now
- Building:
upload_2022-7-1_0-47-48.png


150 AD
- settled city no. 10
- further rotating wonders

225 AD

- wonder rotation is progressing (we whip eveything for gold now)
- Rostov founded (city no. 11), we stop founding new cities now

upload_2022-7-1_1-7-28.png


upload_2022-7-1_1-9-0.png


MC in 3 turns to build some forges.

Question aside: As industrious, where would you build forges?
Because it gives bonus on whipping, it seems thinkable to build 'em everywhere?
 

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Master_Of_Ideas

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300 AD

- Metal Casting
- Great Lib in Moscow
- We go into Monarchy now, need to develop the wineries

350 AD

- Further building massive wealth potential - Final turns before MoM
- We then build barracks in London to start Hero Epic there
- National Epic will go to Moscow, Hero Epic to Rome

upload_2022-7-1_1-36-26.png


425 AD

- MoM finished, in sum 500:gold: failgold
- I await much more failgold in wonders where I am not really interested in
- Monarchy finished, Music next

500 AD

- We now have the most of the important techs. Because there's no tech more, which can progress the economy, we go for optics. After that astro should be possible to bulb, and if not, we have enough failgold then to go for optics in 100% slider (>250:science:)

upload_2022-7-1_2-13-4.png


upload_2022-7-1_2-28-53.png

_______________

Conceptual questions:
1. In my situation where I gathered so many :gp: in Moscow, would you go for Parthenon or not? Would you go for National Epic the fastest way possible or would you use it for massive failgold (like I do actually)
2. Rushing astronomy seems senseful in form of ships - but what will be your attacking army? @sampsa
3. What do you think about harbors? Build them in every coastal city, when oversea trade is possible?

Here's the savefile 500 AD
 

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sampsa

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Finland
500AD
Spoiler :
Optics is in, starting on astro. My breakeven :science: is 200, though comparing those numbers is not entirely fair, since you are relying on failgold, which means you can soon be running 100% slider for a long time, while I simply build wealth. Note the massive fail in :gp:-generation. Should have focused on getting the 2nd GS, as now I need to manually tech astro, then start golden age. Also should've failed MoM a lot more.

I focus much less on buildings and just let cities grow to first work cottages, later to whip them for an army.

Civ4ScreenShot0399.JPG


Question aside: As industrious, where would you build forges?
Because it gives bonus on whipping, it seems thinkable to build 'em everywhere?
People love even non-IND forges. I'm not such a huge fan, since extra 7,5:hammers: per pop when whipping means that a 120:hammers: building breaks even after whipping 16 pop, though of course that's a massive simplification and not the whole truth. IND forges on the other hand are very good surely. I haven't built them a lot here though, rather just keep growing and build wealth because I think the game is so close to the end. Shouldn't be a big deal either way.

- We now have the most of the important techs. Because there's no tech more, which can progress the economy, we go for optics. After that astro should be possible to bulb, and if not, we have enough failgold then to go for optics in 100% slider (>250:science:)
Yes! :goodjob: Fingers crossed that you get a GS.

Conceptual questions:
1. In my situation where I gathered so many :gp: in Moscow, would you go for Parthenon or not? Would you go for National Epic the fastest way possible or would you use it for massive failgold (like I do actually)
2. Rushing astronomy seems senseful in form of ships - but what will be your attacking army? @sampsa
3. What do you think about harbors? Build them in every coastal city, when oversea trade is possible?
1. I think to answer you need to have an answer to "when will I win?". If soon, Parth, NE or any other building/wonder won't be paying back.
2. I don't know what to expect from K-mod monarch AI, so I'll just see what they have (techs and army) and then decide. It's possible even cats+something is enough.
3. Again, depends on how long the game will last. I know I didn't consider building them.
 

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Master_Of_Ideas

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Mh... when I compare the saves, I begin to like the idea of getting a religion and using OR for wonder-failgold.

More techs:
- 5 Religional Techs until Monarchy
- Alphabet
- Aesthetics (very important for the failgold strategy!), Literature (again, HE and NE is great for failgolding)
- Music (just worth 1 GA)

Less techs:
- Compass
- Machinery
- Optics

While Compass and Machinery doesn't seem to bring anything, Optics will get us useful information about how strong our attack force needs to be.
I assume, that Maceman, Catas and Elephants will do the job, maybe with some HAs. Knights seem rather expensive, but feudalism will be useful for ending the game easier. So maybe I would go into feudalism and knights? They won't have pikes for sure.

520 AD:

upload_2022-7-1_12-20-9.png


Every wonder here is for failgold, meaning

Moscow: 30:gold:
Antium: 12:gold:
York: 16:gold:
Hastings: 16:gold: + 17:gold: overflow
Rostov: 3:gold: + 180:gold: by 2 chops

Sum: 274:gold: in just 1 round plus 69:gold: by :commerce:.

Because of OR we use a 2.75 or 3.00 factor instead of 1.00 or 1.25 with wealth production, and we can chop wealth. That's completely crazy. With forges that grows even more.
 

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