How to render archers more attractive?
- Thread starter Calavente
- Start date
do any of you have any idea of the NUMBER of units / promotions in RifE ??? (I started y this one due to it enabling modular... but I'm starting to think I should start with EMTP or EMM as there would be less promotions/equipements/units.
Do any of you know if I can give a free promotion to an unit_class on the unitClassInfo.xml ? so that all unit_class_archer would get that free promotion?
me thinks it would be the easiest way to modify all archery theme ; then modify unit/unit only when different from the unit_class.
Do any of you know if I can give a free promotion to an unit_class on the unitClassInfo.xml ? so that all unit_class_archer would get that free promotion?
me thinks it would be the easiest way to modify all archery theme ; then modify unit/unit only when different from the unit_class.
Are you using some kind of automated scheme to generate XML files? If so I would advice against it unless your method is already developed and tested to make sure it works correctly. The XML schema of units is quite complicated and you would spend more time tweaking your method than it would have taken to just modify units directly. Modifying XML files directly and checking differences against the original file (either with the control version tools of the repository you are checking or with difference tools such as WinMerge) is what works best for me.
If you decide to start with ExtraModMod, if what you plan to do is complex enough it may be worth the effort to learn about Mercurial, the control version system it uses, as it will make your life a lot more simpler. Other ModMods such as Rise from Erebus or More Naval AI use Subversion as their control version system of choice.
I don't know if RifE XML schema allows this, but More Naval AI / ExtraModMod certainly don't.
There is no inheritance scheme for XML descriptions, so there is no way to specify that a certain unit is identical to other except for a small set of differences. To my knowledge there is no other way than to modify all archery units.
Tasunke wrote a proposal with regard to crossbowmen and gunpowder units in the ExtraModMod tracker. I had no time to review it in depth (and also its scope is too deep for what I plan to do with ExtraModMod for at least a few major releases) but it may be interesting for what you plan to do.
thx terkhen.
no, I'm not using an automated generation tool. I was doing it by hand.
but adding
collateral + defensive strike +/- blitz in some cases, + withdraw + doubledefense + lower city attack + access to metal weapons...Etc is hard: on the unit-scheme it goes into at least 4 different places; I found it quicker to add them as a block with 0 values to every archery unit and fill only the needed values and suppress the previous versions of the tag
Doing as you propose (which is wiser) would impose to add 3-4 blocks to each archery unit==> 3 times more copy/paste
my proposition was to give a general archery promotion, and then modify by hand the units that differs, by modifying base str, collateral, withdrawal...Etc whatever.
But I'll follow your proposition, after I dl mercurial (but DEAD-LINK for mercurial for windows)
as a side note I found in RifE the "wall defender promotion" that activates only for unit_class_archer, and only if there is a wall/palissade/castle in city. (very nice for boosting archers) (and enabling them to be stronger to attack out of the city to defend the immediate neighbouring tiles).
--> how hard would it be to introduce such effect in EMM or MnAI ?
no, I'm not using an automated generation tool. I was doing it by hand.
but adding
collateral + defensive strike +/- blitz in some cases, + withdraw + doubledefense + lower city attack + access to metal weapons...Etc is hard: on the unit-scheme it goes into at least 4 different places; I found it quicker to add them as a block with 0 values to every archery unit and fill only the needed values and suppress the previous versions of the tag
Doing as you propose (which is wiser) would impose to add 3-4 blocks to each archery unit==> 3 times more copy/paste
my proposition was to give a general archery promotion, and then modify by hand the units that differs, by modifying base str, collateral, withdrawal...Etc whatever.
But I'll follow your proposition, after I dl mercurial (but DEAD-LINK for mercurial for windows)
as a side note I found in RifE the "wall defender promotion" that activates only for unit_class_archer, and only if there is a wall/palissade/castle in city. (very nice for boosting archers) (and enabling them to be stronger to attack out of the city to defend the immediate neighbouring tiles).
--> how hard would it be to introduce such effect in EMM or MnAI ?
4 str wo metals is fine.
Then either 50% city defense or 25% and another 25% with walls.
It would be more accurate for walls to give archers an additional first strike.
So 4, no metal, +50% city defense,
And walls give archers an additional first strike.
.....
For the field, have 20% withdrawal and access to flanking 1.
Then either 50% city defense or 25% and another 25% with walls.
It would be more accurate for walls to give archers an additional first strike.
So 4, no metal, +50% city defense,
And walls give archers an additional first strike.
.....
For the field, have 20% withdrawal and access to flanking 1.
What I was currently aiming to "mod" is :
archer : 4+ bronze W, 25CD, 25 in border (ie +50CD) 25 hill def, -25 city Attack, + defensivestrike when existing + 15% withdrawal, access to flanking 1.
IMO 5str units with the +1str coming from another line and the CA limitations is ok.
only issue is the combination with Flaming arrows where bronze-flaming archers would be better than axes for everything. but bronze is on melee path and flaming arrows is sorcery, so a pretty mid-late game combination.
and javelin at 5/4 +bronze -35 CA, +5 withdraw, access to flanking (better than axes in normal terrain attack, but way worse against cities... IRL javelin thrower were very dangerous : both Impi and Romain Legio launched javelin attacks immediately before active melee combat)
for blowpipe : 3/2 +2 poison, no weapon, they seem as strong as javelin, but their "poison" is only against living units; to compensate, they have forest/marsh +20%, and are less costly with reagants and incense.
I was considering a marksman ability for them, but then at only 2/2 +2poison, no bronze. but I don't know as it would be too much different from other archers.
for longbow I was going to give : 5 + bronze/iron , 25% withdrawal +same as archer. I am considering blitz (for unlimited defensive strike - which was the true fear of longbow : like 20%chance... but every time a unit attack, even if already fired a defensive strike) and if too OP I'll give them double defense.
so they are weaker in defense than champions at def 5 str (+2) instead of str 6 +2(4), but better in both city defense and active defense in own country due to 25% in border and withdraw, and can compensate for mithril weapons by having flaming arrows.
if considering collateral : I'll remove the weapons and give a 1 unit 10% collateral for archer and 2units 10% for LB. (but then I'll up longbow at 6/5 instead of 5/5 to compensate for losing 2str)
nightwatch, crossbow, marksmen and heros would follow the same pattern.
for me X-bows are like longbows, more powerful, less mobile, cheaper : so
-cheaper than LB, +1 or 2str vs LB, less def str, less collateral, less withdrawal.
Firearrow would give +50vs cities.
Precision: +20% str (for allowing better attack)
Keen sight: +10%withdrawal (due to being able to see from farther away)
arquebuses and such "gun" units would not follow the same pattern and be more melee-like in their stats, even without a specific "gun" class.
if the RifE "wall defender" promotion were to be ported, I'll try something like : +1str, +1FS, +10%withdraw (only applied while in walled city), and remove the weapon promotions from archers. Active defense for first ring of tiles just around city would be enabled without rendering them too strong in the field.
archer : 4+ bronze W, 25CD, 25 in border (ie +50CD) 25 hill def, -25 city Attack, + defensivestrike when existing + 15% withdrawal, access to flanking 1.
IMO 5str units with the +1str coming from another line and the CA limitations is ok.
only issue is the combination with Flaming arrows where bronze-flaming archers would be better than axes for everything. but bronze is on melee path and flaming arrows is sorcery, so a pretty mid-late game combination.
and javelin at 5/4 +bronze -35 CA, +5 withdraw, access to flanking (better than axes in normal terrain attack, but way worse against cities... IRL javelin thrower were very dangerous : both Impi and Romain Legio launched javelin attacks immediately before active melee combat)
for blowpipe : 3/2 +2 poison, no weapon, they seem as strong as javelin, but their "poison" is only against living units; to compensate, they have forest/marsh +20%, and are less costly with reagants and incense.
I was considering a marksman ability for them, but then at only 2/2 +2poison, no bronze. but I don't know as it would be too much different from other archers.
for longbow I was going to give : 5 + bronze/iron , 25% withdrawal +same as archer. I am considering blitz (for unlimited defensive strike - which was the true fear of longbow : like 20%chance... but every time a unit attack, even if already fired a defensive strike) and if too OP I'll give them double defense.
so they are weaker in defense than champions at def 5 str (+2) instead of str 6 +2(4), but better in both city defense and active defense in own country due to 25% in border and withdraw, and can compensate for mithril weapons by having flaming arrows.
if considering collateral : I'll remove the weapons and give a 1 unit 10% collateral for archer and 2units 10% for LB. (but then I'll up longbow at 6/5 instead of 5/5 to compensate for losing 2str)
nightwatch, crossbow, marksmen and heros would follow the same pattern.
for me X-bows are like longbows, more powerful, less mobile, cheaper : so
-cheaper than LB, +1 or 2str vs LB, less def str, less collateral, less withdrawal.
Firearrow would give +50vs cities.
Precision: +20% str (for allowing better attack)
Keen sight: +10%withdrawal (due to being able to see from farther away)
arquebuses and such "gun" units would not follow the same pattern and be more melee-like in their stats, even without a specific "gun" class.
if the RifE "wall defender" promotion were to be ported, I'll try something like : +1str, +1FS, +10%withdraw (only applied while in walled city), and remove the weapon promotions from archers. Active defense for first ring of tiles just around city would be enabled without rendering them too strong in the field.
Definitely don't invert the enchantment spells.
A ljos archer with flaming arrows would be 6/5 str +25% city attack
That's better than a metal-less champion ^_^
4/4 plus copper is 5/5
5/5 plus fire arrows is 6/6
Plus dexterity is 7/6 + 25% city attack!
By comparison, iron axe man is 6/6 +10% city attack
A ljos archer with flaming arrows would be 6/5 str +25% city attack
That's better than a metal-less champion ^_^
4/4 plus copper is 5/5
5/5 plus fire arrows is 6/6
Plus dexterity is 7/6 + 25% city attack!
By comparison, iron axe man is 6/6 +10% city attack
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arcticnightwolf
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Depends; i guess you could do that in python, but you would have to hardcode it and i'm not sure about performance of that code
As for doing that in dll, i think it wouldn't be really difficult, but you would have to have at least basic knowledge how to edit the c++ code
thw articknightwolf 
so that is really out of the question for me ...
I have very basic C++ knowledge, but so rusty that i would rather not do it.
maybe someone'll ask Tholal to include the mechanics in MnAI
tchuss
@tasunke : elven archers are to be feared
and IIRC, elven longbow (with iron and flaming arrows) were already at 9/9... better than their iron champion counterpart (8).
so elven archers with flaming arrows being better than their melee counterpart seems ok. and IMO the issue is that for basic archers it was not true. (5/6 for ljos archer with flaming arrow vs 6str axes)
so in my version, the paradigme is only given straight from the tier II unit.
but maybe flaming arrow should "only" give 25%CA.. just enough to compensate the -25.. or maybe 35... to give the same 10% of axes.
but as I said, I know collateral are in all modes. so I'll give 1 unit collateral 10% to archers and no bronze weapons ; and longbows at 6/5, no weapons, and 2 units collateral 10%.
so flaming arrows ljos longbows would be at 8/6 + 2 collateral 15% (better collateral) + 10% CA: better in attack than iron champs... but less OP than vanilla ljos longbows vs champs.
friebows with automatic flaming arrows would be thematic, but amurites don't really need the economy of 1 enchantment II mage... and nothing would justify giving firebows access to Fire I and II... or ... why not being OP .. a little bit of OPness for firebows would not be too sad...
actually, I'm not fixed yet on firebows, longbow-blowpipes and dexterity.. maybe dexterity gives blitz for fearsome ljos archers of same str, but better defensive strike ability...
EDIT: /me Love EMM I just found that it seems that UnitInfo.xml in Extramodmod has ALL TAGS for Every Units... so I just have to fill in the values instead of searching/trying to fathom the order of the tags.
God bless you Terkhen and Tholal (I haven't yet checked if this feature comes from MnAI or EMM).
PS: for the moment, no "change check system" as I haven't had time to find the tool
so that is really out of the question for me ...
I have very basic C++ knowledge, but so rusty that i would rather not do it.
maybe someone'll ask Tholal to include the mechanics in MnAI
tchuss
@tasunke : elven archers are to be feared
and IIRC, elven longbow (with iron and flaming arrows) were already at 9/9... better than their iron champion counterpart (8).
so elven archers with flaming arrows being better than their melee counterpart seems ok. and IMO the issue is that for basic archers it was not true. (5/6 for ljos archer with flaming arrow vs 6str axes)
so in my version, the paradigme is only given straight from the tier II unit.
but maybe flaming arrow should "only" give 25%CA.. just enough to compensate the -25.. or maybe 35... to give the same 10% of axes.
but as I said, I know collateral are in all modes. so I'll give 1 unit collateral 10% to archers and no bronze weapons ; and longbows at 6/5, no weapons, and 2 units collateral 10%.
so flaming arrows ljos longbows would be at 8/6 + 2 collateral 15% (better collateral) + 10% CA: better in attack than iron champs... but less OP than vanilla ljos longbows vs champs.
friebows with automatic flaming arrows would be thematic, but amurites don't really need the economy of 1 enchantment II mage... and nothing would justify giving firebows access to Fire I and II... or ... why not being OP .. a little bit of OPness for firebows would not be too sad...
actually, I'm not fixed yet on firebows, longbow-blowpipes and dexterity.. maybe dexterity gives blitz for fearsome ljos archers of same str, but better defensive strike ability...
EDIT: /me Love EMM
I just found that it seems that UnitInfo.xml in Extramodmod has ALL TAGS for Every Units... so I just have to fill in the values instead of searching/trying to fathom the order of the tags.God bless you Terkhen and Tholal (I haven't yet checked if this feature comes from MnAI or EMM).
PS: for the moment, no "change check system" as I haven't had time to find the tool
Hi,
I had issues with microsoft xml editor, so I'm trying Notepad++... but it seems, using extramodmod, that I arrive only to show all the text in 1 line...; what settings should I use to see it as indented text, with 1 line per tag?
thx in advance
EDIT: it seems saving with microsoft word was the thing that destroyed all "end-line characters"... sorry
EDIT 2: as I have your attention, I have a question:
in EMM, <iCombatPercentInBorders> and <bDoubleFortifyBonus> are only available in the PromotionInfo.xml file.
how could I allow them in the UnitInfo.xml file ?
should I just add corresponding lines in the UnitSchema.xml file under the "<ElementType name="UnitInfo" content="eltOnly">" part?
or is it much more complicated than that?
A few of ExtraModMod text files have messed up end of line characters because for the first months (long before the public release) I developed from Linux (which uses a different EOL format) and sometimes I forgot to force the Windows EOL format.
If you only got that problem on a few of the files you edited, it may be related to the EOL issue I mention.
Both not. You are supposed to create a new promotion that your units have by default.
You can look for possible tags and their order in CIV4UnitSchema.xml. Even if you don't understand the file, if you search for "<ElementType name="UnitInfo" content="eltOnly">" you'll find a list of tags below that in the right order. Same for PromotionInfo.
thx.
I already did it.. that's when I found out that bdoublefortify and icombatpercentinborder were limited to promotions...
I was just checking if adding the line in UnitSchemaInfo would have enabled me to NOT have to add the promotions.. but you say no. so I'll keep with going the long way around and give every archery unit an "Archer" promotion.
as a side note for slingers... I'm going:
40%hill def (instead of 25)
3% collateral damage instead of 6%
and 10% withdraw instead of 15%
BUT 35Hammers instead of 45.
/regards
I already did it.. that's when I found out that bdoublefortify and icombatpercentinborder were limited to promotions...
I was just checking if adding the line in UnitSchemaInfo would have enabled me to NOT have to add the promotions.. but you say no. so I'll keep with going the long way around and give every archery unit an "Archer" promotion.
as a side note for slingers... I'm going:
40%hill def (instead of 25)
3% collateral damage instead of 6%
and 10% withdraw instead of 15%
BUT 35Hammers instead of 45.
/regards
alternatively you could give each archer unit the Defensive and Homeland promotions 
( I personally disagree with giving archers a within borders boost, but meh )
--> Imho an argument could be made for any unit that they'd fight better within their borders, but there are already mechanics to help precipitate this effect, and there is already the Defender trait that gives the homeland promotion to all units, increasing this effect. I'd rather not complicate things by giving Archers a within borders effect, plus I'd rather see them have their city bonuses and their field bonuses as separate things, because archers fight quite differently between those two circumstances.
( I personally disagree with giving archers a within borders boost, but meh
)--> Imho an argument could be made for any unit that they'd fight better within their borders, but there are already mechanics to help precipitate this effect, and there is already the Defender trait that gives the homeland promotion to all units, increasing this effect. I'd rather not complicate things by giving Archers a within borders effect, plus I'd rather see them have their city bonuses and their field bonuses as separate things, because archers fight quite differently between those two circumstances.
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