How to start off with the Honor Policy?

[MadDjinn]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I don't think it works this way. Defensive flanking bonuses are based on the number of your units next to their attacking unit, not your defending one. If you want 3 flankers, you would need to put 3 LKs further forward, surrounding any attacker. Of course, then the attacker will just go for your forward guard. Really, the best defensive formation is a straight line, or close to it, although when you're attacking you can break the line to milk the flanking bonuses for all they're worth.
The discipline policy from honour does work this way, giving +10% for having a unit next to your own unit when you're attacking or defending, but doesn't compound with more units.
I really liked your analysis of barbarian milking. Even though snarzberry's Songhai strategy with liberty is faster at getting chivalry, your honour strategy with Germany is still quite viable on deity. Since the July patch their unique trait allows them to better afford the large number of units this strategy requires. Got to try it sometime!

defensive flanking is about having units beside the one being attacked, while offensive flanking depends on having units beside the unit being attacked.

a core of a single unit with 3 flankers (two beside and one behind) gains you a solid 30% flanking bonus for the middle two units and 20% for the ones on the side. (add Discipline for 10% more to each) I do believe there might be some bonus for having other units beside the attacker, when on defense, but I'd have to verify that. (the AI rarely uses formations, so it's harder to verify against them)

For the germans, the one thing I haven't tried is to keep the camps around until the mid game and then take out the camps after minutemen or rifles appear there. I'm not sure which unit counts as the 'spawn', but if you can wait for better units, the pay off is much nicer. (Deity AI will try to steal the camp before then, so you'll have to protect it) Or at least in the early game, range kill the brutes, then take the camp for the archers.

 

[turtlefang]

The first unit that appears in the camp will spawn for the Germans if it converts. So if you keep the camp around until mid-game by "killing units" in the camp, but it started with a brute, you get a brute. Doesn't matter if something better has moved in to garrison the camp in the meantime.

NOTE: Sometimes if you save a game, it seems some of the camps will sometimes reset the "original unit" to whatever is in the camp at the time of the save.

If you want to farm the barb camps, you have to keep an unpopulated area, go in and kill the camps so that renew with more current units. As the time goes by, they will start with more modern units up to and including infantry at some point. Now, whether you can do this or not is another question.

 

[pontias]

i didn't know the flanking bonus was cumulative like that... thanks.
also, didn't know capturing empty barb camps gave you potential unit - I thought you had to kill a unit in the camp as you capture it to convert it. don't know why :S so thanks again!

 

[MadDjinn]

defensive flanking is about having units beside the one being attacked, while offensive flanking depends on having units beside the unit being attacked.

derp...

just double checked this in a hotseat game. yeah, I've been using flanking wrong

flanking is all about the units near the attacker on defense, or the attacked unit on offence.

(Discipline still benefits you on defense even if the flanker is behind you)

this may have to go into my change list.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Brute milking is kind of exploitative, don't you think?

Playing the game at all is kind of exploitative, don't you think?

Generally it's better to go gg -----> experience boost first from what I've seen, even though discipline is pretty strong when you can pull good surrounds. 4 hex surrounds with gg + flank + discipline + promos are ridiculous and is the kind of thing that can make horseman > spear.

 

[MadDjinn]

Generally it's better to go gg -----> experience boost first from what I've seen, even though discipline is pretty strong when you can pull good surrounds. 4 hex surrounds with gg + flank + discipline + promos are ridiculous and is the kind of thing that can make horseman > spear.

it depends. (assuming here you got DoWd early and are planning to counter attack)

If you are using melee units, and have 4 already, then Discipline is better.

if you're mainly using archers, the added XP is better. (flanking bonus helps melee units more often)

If you didn't build 4 units already, then the XP boost is better.

 

[budweiser]

OK so I went honor first this weekend. Filled out the whole tree and took over my whole continent by 300AD. Then my army just sat there the whole rest of the while not doing anything. All those deep honor picks wasted. No need to pick the whole tree so fast.

9 games out of 10 I will open honor first for the extra barb bashing, then go back to liberty. If a war is needed, just resume honor. That seems a good way to go.

In an average game, you can probably make back the cost of that fist policy by killing barbs and your first few warriors can earn promos and survive easier.

 

[MadDjinn]

OK so I went honor first this weekend. Filled out the whole tree and took over my whole continent by 300AD. Then my army just sat there the whole rest of the while not doing anything. All those deep honor picks wasted. No need to pick the whole tree so fast.

9 games out of 10 I will open honor first for the extra barb bashing, then go back to liberty. If a war is needed, just resume honor. That seems a good way to go.

In an average game, you can probably make back the cost of that fist policy by killing barbs and your first few warriors can earn promos and survive easier.

you could have invaded the other continent...

Otherwise, yeah, unless you're planning on a mass slaughter of units (Honour finisher) then it might not be worth finishing the tree. Garrisons are best when you add Oligarchy and walls are about the only defensive building worth the hammer/+1 happiness. (unless you've run out of things to build or desperately need more happy)

The upgrade reduction cost is nice though, but mainly if you're planning all out domination.

Else, for local domination only, the first few policies are just fine and you can get on with other policies.

 

[budweiser]

you could have invaded the other continent...

Not so fast. Babylon dominated the other side. I really wish I had made a save of the point where I wiped out my continent, but I didnt. I was at least half an age behind the whole rest of the way.

It wasnt until mech inf that I caught up enough to snipe at his capitol.Those 8 or 10 units I made in the ancient age then upgraded were not enough. Unfortunatley it turned into Gallipolli, so i just dropped the whole thing. It was one of those games where only 3 people still had their capitol at the end. Egypt being the third. A few more turns spent building units would have taken him.

 

[Rex_Mundi]

... and walls are about the only defensive building worth the hammer/+1 happiness. (unless you've run out of things to build or desperately need more happy)

...

Puppets like to build defensive buildings, so Honor is well suited for puppet empires.

 

[Civsassin]

Every policy has some way to increase happiness

IMO, Honor is the best initial policy branch for happiness. You can easily add two per city with a garrison and wall. No other early policy gives you that much. As you move up the tech tree, castles, arsenals, etc add one each. That's not bad, especially for a war monger.

 

[budweiser]

IMO, Honor is the best initial policy branch for happiness. You can easily add two per city with a garrison and wall. No other early policy gives you that much. As you move up the tech tree, castles, arsenals, etc add one each. That's not bad, especially for a war monger.

That policy is three layers deep. I think its only good if you plan on controlling many cities, not just 4 or 6. Then you are adding the burden of unit upkeep for multiple cities unelss you take Oligarchy from tradition. That eats up a lot of picks. I'd say you need to be well into the middle ages and expanding before that policy makes sense.

 

[Civsassin]

That policy is three layers deep. I think its only good if you plan on controlling many cities, not just 4 or 6. Then you are adding the burden of unit upkeep for multiple cities unelss you take Oligarchy from tradition. That eats up a lot of picks. I'd say you need to be well into the middle ages and expanding before that policy makes sense.

IMO, Oligarchy and the honor policy that gives happiness and culture for garrisons are powerful when combined.

 

[Carl5872]

I was looking at this and I'm far from an expert but I can see the benefits of starting honor even if you aren't warmongering. Honor gives you some cheap happiness benefits early with troops in cities and defensive buildings. I don't know if it is the best way to go, but I think it is at least viable.

I whole heartedly agree. If you add in oligarchy from tradition (free maintenance for soldiers garrissoned and doubles the attack of cities with a garrison) then you have awesome synergies. For the price of a scout, you get an increased city attack, free happiness, 2 culture, and an increase to your military rating to boot. Treat these like temples or circuses and build one in every city. Very cheap and a ton of benefits. Anyone using either branch should get the corresponding portion of the other.

 

[ahawk]

IMO, Honor is the best initial policy branch for happiness. You can easily add two per city with a garrison and wall. No other early policy gives you that much. As you move up the tech tree, castles, arsenals, etc add one each. That's not bad, especially for a war monger.

Every policy can add happiness, and Honor is a good track for some strategies.

But if I were to go tall, I wouldn't go Honor. Since Tradition rewards you with extra happiness for each 2 pop in capital, as well as for each 10 pop per city, I'd 90% of the time go Tradition for happiness when I plan on having less than 4 cities the whole game.

And I I were to go wide, have a lot of cities, then Liberty gives me a fair amount of happiness merely from getting extra from trade routes.

 

[Civsassin]

Every policy can add happiness, and Honor is a good track for some strategies.

But if I were to go tall, I wouldn't go Honor. Since Tradition rewards you with extra happiness for each 2 pop in capital, as well as for each 10 pop per city, I'd 90% of the time go Tradition for happiness when I plan on having less than 4 cities the whole game.

And I I were to go wide, have a lot of cities, then Liberty gives me a fair amount of happiness merely from getting extra from trade routes.

For a wide empire, the happiness boost from Liberty doesn't compare to what you get from Honor. But, I agree with your initial analysis. For a tall empire, Tradition is a necessary policy.