How to use spy as France

[myclan]

As one of the weak Civilization, how to use spy more effecitvely? How about the promotion of the Spy, it seems that the highest succeed rate of a mission is 90%? And normally the succeed rate of siphond fund is not too low so I actually don't need that Con Artist promotion at all? Is there a explanation of the whole spy system in detail? Thanks.

 

[Archon_Wing]

France gets a spy sooner than everyone else thus use it offensively asap. Siphon funds should probably come first to promote the spy before you try to steal any works.

 

[Victoria]

Is there a explanation of the whole spy system in detail?

It is embedded in a few threads but no one source.

The key points as I see them are

Getting the promotion level (not abilities) is key... so a level 4 or Master spy gets great chances regardless of which promotion.
This means for promotions the best promotions are those that speed up spying and enable better escapes.

Syphoning funds is pointless early as it's rare anyone has a CH when Cathy gets a spy... trust me, I play her a fair amount.
As Cathy with first promotions in place you can just go for what is easiest to try and get your spy levels up. With no counter spies in play it can work quite well, even though the % is not great, each success is a promotion, you may loose 1-2 spies if unlucky but you will have a master spy soon enough.

The trouble is stealing things takes time so promotions and cards to speed it up are by far the best.

 

[magha77]

Hopefully with the mechanics you can use a spy to sow civil discord to get a city to join you. I particularly miss the ability to buy off an enemy unit though!

 

[Victoria]

The new Intelligence agency building will seriously boost Catherine early. Admittedly it does provide others with the opportunity but with her, she just gets so much better I really look forward to playing with this and 2 spies early will make a big difference to enjoying playing as a spymaster.
+1 Spy and Spy capacity. All Spy operations have a higher chance of success

 

[myclan]

It is embedded in a few threads but no one source.

The key points as I see them are

Getting the promotion level (not abilities) is key... so a level 4 or Master spy gets great chances regardless of which promotion.
This means for promotions the best promotions are those that speed up spying and enable better escapes.

Syphoning funds is pointless early as it's rare anyone has a CH when Cathy gets a spy... trust me, I play her a fair amount.
As Cathy with first promotions in place you can just go for what is easiest to try and get your spy levels up. With no counter spies in play it can work quite well, even though the % is not great, each success is a promotion, you may loose 1-2 spies if unlucky but you will have a master spy soon enough.

The trouble is stealing things takes time so promotions and cards to speed it up are by far the best.

So in my recent game I played as France and aiming for a culture victory.

In previouse thread you had suggested to build more TD early to prevent others from getting GW. In my game I had managed to build 4TD with Diving Sparks so +8ptGW per turn. But my neighbour is Pericles and he also had built a lot of Acropolis with amphitheter so our we just take one GW in turn.

So I just sent my spy to steal his great work (luckily got the Cat Burglar promotion) and successfully stole 2 great works while getting other two from conquest. It seems that great works of writing and relics created by archaeologist can be stolen by spy(Great works by artist and musician not confirmed), so maybe it is another way to achieve culture victory?

I also think that it will take too much time for a spy to travel to a foreign city>get prepared>do a task>fail and return to city. So I think Ace Driver is just useless unless having nothing to choose. Master Spy is spy+3 level. And getting Cat Burglar or Con Artist or Technologist with +2level are just better.

 

[Victoria]

so maybe it is another way to achieve culture victory

Yes but you do run out of places to keep them. It's not really a strategy by itself, more it augments normal approaches.

So I think Ace Driver is just useless

I think ace driver is more useful than con artist. The reason you say this is because of speed. As a spy master Machiavellianism is 25% off the time as well. Once you spy is established in a civ, it's better to keep them in that civ than move them half way around the world.

Have you tried science yet? With a run away Gilgamesh or Mvemba you can get to computers quite fast as you do not have to keep moving cities.

 

[myclan]

Yes but you do run out of places to keep them. It's not really a strategy by itself, more it augments normal approaches.

I just feel building too much TD in the early is diffcult and costly, but without a lot of them GW will be got by others, so this maybe a way. Of course will build more TD later for archaeologist.

I think ace driver is more useful than con artist. The reason you say this is because of speed. As a spy master Machiavellianism is 25% off the time as well. Once you spy is established in a civ, it's better to keep them in that civ than move them half way around the world.

Have you tried science yet? With a run away Gilgamesh or Mvemba you can get to computers quite fast as you do not have to keep moving cities.

Science and siphon fund actually is much better than steal a Great work for you don't need to move to get all. And I think the most saving time method is to improve the success rate instead of fail and being raced by police. For a nomal agent(level 2) without proper promotion after gaining source the success rate of stealing tech is 75%. But if you have the con artist promotion you may get siphon gold with 84% success without gaining soure. Two success lead to master spy(level 4) and can steal a tech with 75% without gaining soure. Won't it be more effective compared to Ace driver?

 

[Victoria]

Well you certainly know your spies.

Science and siphon fund actually is much better than steal a Great work for you don't need to move to get all

Well its more complicated than you think. The mechanics are straight forward but the strategy is not.
A runaway culture civ relies heavily on great works so its a good way to knock them down. You can take the works yourself..... or sell them to others and they are worth a lot of money now. You can spread the culture growth around. This has many knock on effects. You can also place works in non steal able places like the bank or Apadna. I have noticed the AI unfortunately does this also. Also siphon and stealing funds are often easier to get caught doing. The AI tends to place their spies there and they cannot protect all theaters. A civ has cities close to each other so its an additional few turns between them. Disguise is a good promotion for an art thief.

Two success lead to master spy(level 4) and can steal a tech with 75% without gaining soure. Won't it be more effective compared to Ace driver?

Death is the driving factor here. Have a super fast spy but with each mission your chance of getting killed increases. Ace driver ... 4 levels higher?... that's like super spy twice as good and more importantly a fast getaway means more stealing afterward. More to the point... if you are settling yourself i one city as you say for a 'long time' what would be better?... linguist and Disguise or Linguist and Ace driver? Or as you say.. you would take Con artist and Disguise..... I have no issue with that ... but I would take Technologist and ace driver as the chance of capture is higher.

The point is you have more than 1 spy and regardless some will get caught and you do need to spread the skills around. I am just glad now France can start with two with 2 promotions each which means you can have a Quartermaster at home and a spy abroad. That extra level helps. As France I will build a BIG city with a campus and CH next to each just for my quatermaster to get to Level 4. Selling spies back is also good trade and they seem not to have a memory of how good she is at capturing spies.

Promotion list for those unaware
Ace Driver: If caught on a mission, have a much higher chance of escape (+4 levels).
Cat Burglar: Steal Great Works as if 2 levels more experienced.
Con Artist: Siphon Funds as if 2 levels more experienced.
Demolitions: Sabotage Production as if 2 levels more experienced.
Disguise: Takes no time to establish presence in an enemy city.
Guerilla Leader: Recruit Partisans as if 2 levels more experienced.
Linguist: Time to complete all missions reduced by 25%.
Quartermaster: If this Spy is in home territory, all your Spies operate at +1 level.
Rocket Scientist: Disrupt Rocketry as if 2 levels more experienced.
Seduction: Counterspy as if 2 levels more experienced.
Technologist: Steal Technology as if 2 levels more experienced

 

[Phoenix1595]

Thanks for the info, @Victoria . As much as I play and understand the game, espionage is one area that I can't seem to master. I wish the designers had as thorough an explanation on the mechanics as you provided here.

 

[Victoria]

I wish the designers had as thorough an explanation on the mechanics as you provided here.

OK... I do not know all the mechanics but will try an make a little guide. I will probably not post it until after R&F though

 

[Victoria]

Starter for 10 - Spy levels and chance of success. (needs to be checked)
My understanding is you are level 3 but with a +2 promotion you spy as level 5
A defensive spy with level 2 will turn your level 5 attack into a level 3 attack (the highest defender is level 6 with Seduction)
You will not know if there is a defensive spy in place so may answer some of why people feel like they get caught a lot.

 

[Phoenix1595]

This is an awesome infograph. It will be very helpful. I was wondering why my spies had such pitiful success rates beyond listening posts. Thanks so much!

 

[Victoria]

This is a weird one. The time to travel to a new city can be less for a longer distance
Here it takes 2 turns to travel 24 tiles over water while it takes 3 turns to establish yourself down the road. Seems like a bug.
Travel seems to be 2-4 turns. For a foreign city add 3 turns to establish the spy.
A standard mission takes 8 turns.
Standard speed, standard size continents.

 

[myclan]

You can also place works in non steal able places like the bank or Apadna. I have noticed the AI unfortunately does this also. Also siphon and stealing funds are often easier to get caught doing. The AI tends to place their spies there and they cannot protect all theaters. A civ has cities close to each other so its an additional few turns between them. Disguise is a good promotion for an art thief.

Just come to know that the meaning of extra place for great works in wonders is to prevent them from being stolen. Especially for those can't or difficult to get themed. Thanks.

Death is the driving factor here. Have a super fast spy but with each mission your chance of getting killed increases. Ace driver ... 4 levels higher?... that's like super spy twice as good and more importantly a fast getaway means more stealing afterward. More to the point... if you are settling yourself i one city as you say for a 'long time' what would be better?... linguist and Disguise or Linguist and Ace driver? Or as you say.. you would take Con artist and Disguise..... I have no issue with that ... but I would take Technologist and ace driver as the chance of capture is higher.

I agree that for a high level spy it may be important to get Ace Driver to get safer. (Curious about the escape success rate). But for a recruit agent that have a low chance to succeed, it may be better to choose the first promotion to increase his rate instead of Ace Driver?

The point is you have more than 1 spy and regardless some will get caught and you do need to spread the skills around. I am just glad now France can start with two with 2 promotions each which means you can have a Quartermaster at home and a spy abroad. That extra level helps. As France I will build a BIG city with a campus and CH next to each just for my quatermaster to get to Level 4. Selling spies back is also good trade and they seem not to have a memory of how good she is at capturing spies.

Feel counter spy silly now, they can steal my technology/gold or destruct my industrial zone in any of my cities and what I can cover is only 1 district and others adjacent to it. Just too difficult to catch one.

 

[Forster]

This is a weird one. The time to travel to a new city can be less for a longer distance
Here it takes 2 turns to travel 24 tiles over water while it takes 3 turns to establish yourself down the road. Seems like a bug.
Travel seems to be 2-4 turns. For a foreign city add 3 turns to establish the spy.
A standard mission takes 8 turns.
Standard speed, standard size continents.

Maybe water travel covers more distance each turn.

 

[Victoria]

@Forster yep I know all that, but it's a bit wrong that a city just down the road takes longer than a city far away overseas

 

[Victoria]

Turn 301 - 6 Master Spies (target met) wrecking everythjing.
Poor Gdansk, every 6 turns 2 more partisans keep popping up.
Poor Ghandi has spaceports in every city and they all just keep getting wrecked along with production
Armand, my counter spy is defending Great Zimbabwe's CH .. the city is earning 200 gold per turn and enemy spies just cannot resist it. Flies to honey. Armand is operating at -8 levels, nasty
Offensive spies operating mostly at +8, occaisionally at +6
The main thing is the spies are doing something most turns which makes them more fun.

 

[Victoria]

One interesting thing is the espionage Random call is a value 0-216 not 0-100 for some reason. I did feel like I had a few bad luck calls but then analyzed the dandomcalls.;csv log file
I guess if someone feels they are being hard done by this is the way to prove it.... looks fine to me.

 

[Victoria]

Finally got

Even with India being rather annoyed with me stealiong all his gold turn ofter turn (still not made him bust)