How well developed was Kievan Rus before the Mongols

[Domen]

Kiev before the Mongol Invasion was one of the largest and most populous cities in Europe (and it was not the only large city in Rus).

Already in 1018 Kiev had 6 market places and 400 churches (according to Thietmar of Merseburg), which shows its enormous size.

Map of the city of Kiev in 1230:

http://i.imgur.com/nf6hZ.jpg

Mongol siege of Kiev in 1240:

http://www.personal.psu.edu/kml5056...10/02/mongolinvasion-thumb-907x644-103621.jpg

Size of Kiev in the early 13th century (before the Mongol Invasion) was 350 - 380 hectares (already at that time another city of Rus - Chernigov - surpassed its size, with area of 400 - 450 hectares at that time). By comparison size of Florence after 1285 was 430 hectares.

Population of Florence within its 430 hectares after year 1285 and before the Black Death is estimated as 80,000 - 100,000.

Population of Kiev in 1230 within its 350 - 380 hectares is usually given as at least 50,000 people, perhaps even more.

Chernigov was at that time already bigger and more populous. Also Velikiy Novgorod was a large city. Both Kiev and Chernigov, however, fell victim to the Mongol Invasion, like most of Rus. Novgorod was untouched by this invasion and became the leading city of entire Rus.

Sources for the size of Kiev, Chernigov and Florence in the 13th century:

http://www.rulit.net/books/the-orig...istory-of-russia-volume-1-read-252937-21.html

http://www.castellitoscani.com/firenze.htm

Before 1285 Florence was much smaller than 430 hectares, but it was expanding far beyond the old city walls and that's why in 1285 construction of new walls, around those new suburbs which appeared as the result of that territorial and demographic expansion, was started.

So after 1285 entire settled area of the city was surrounded by walls, since those new walls encompassed all new suburbs.

===================================================

It seems that the Mongol Invasion greatly hampered the economic development of Eastern Europe.

It also weakened the Russo-Byzantine Orthodox civilization (at the same time Turks did the same with its Byzantine component).

Maybe without the Mongols and the Turks, historical development speed of Western and Eastern Europe would be different.

What do you think?

The Mongol Invasion also hampered the development of the Kingdom of Hungary and greatly reduced its population size.

 

[Kyriakos]

Nice topic

I think i'll wait till post #3, so that the discussion will have focused on Poland already

 

[Domen]

This was funny first three times but not any more. Enough jokes.

I am interested in some info on cities of Rus in period 900 - 1240. For example population figures (what were the largest cities apart from Kiev, Chernigov and Novgorod?) and river trade (from the Baltic Sea to Crimea).

 

[TheLastOne36]

I was translating a lot of Kievan Rus' pages from Russian wiki to English wiki a while back. Some Russian sources put Kiev's population at the time as high as 100,000.

I also have a collection of maps that Wikipedia won't allow me to upload, but I can post here:

http://i.imgur.com/Lgt6n6c.gif Eastern Europe in 1100
http://i.imgur.com/aV0PT87.gif Eastern Europe in 1200
http://i.imgur.com/Woy3Hnu.gif Eastern Europe in 1250, showing the Mongol Invasions

 

[Domen]

Eastern Europe in 1250, showing the Mongol Invasions

This map is not very historically accurate though, at least in its western part...

 

[da dick]

who knows? maybe the devastation caused by mongols and turks might haved "saved" eastern europe from an earlier outbreak of the black death or some other disaster helped by overpopulation in cities/towns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death

 

[Domen]

But the devastation caused by Mongols hampered the economic development of Rus for many years.

So I think that overall balance of the Mongol Invasion for Rus is very negative.

From a very well developed region, with urban centers comparable to Italian ones, they turned into a backwater.

==================================

Please also note that epidemies such as the Black Death, destroy only population, not infrastructure.

On the other hand, the Mongol Invasion destroyed both population and infrastructure.

In other words, devastating wars such as the Mongol Invasion are worse than epidemies.

Northern Italian cities were heavily decimated by the Black Death, but infrastructure remained intact.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Also let's keep in mind that the post-Rus' states suffered from being under the Tatar Yoke for many decades/centuries following the invasion.

 

[Dachs]

Suffered how, exactly?

 

[Tahuti]

Suffered how, exactly?

From tributes!

 

[Domen]

Some Russian sources put Kiev's population at the time as high as 100,000.

I think according to more recent estimations it was 50,000 around year 1200 - which is still a very large number for that time.

Other large cities were for example Chernigov and Novgorod (around 30,000 inhabitants in Novgorod - bigger than London).

The total number of towns and cities of Rus at the eve of the Mongol Invasion was around 300.

Suffered how, exactly?

Read this article Dachs:

http://www.sras.org/the_effects_of_the_mongol_empire_on_russia

Conclusion

As the evidence stands, the effects of the Mongol invasion were many, spread across the political, social, and religious facets of Russia. While some of those effects, such as the growth of the Orthodox Church generally had a relatively positive effect on the lands of the Rus, other results, such as the loss of the veche system and centralization of power assisted in halting the spread of traditional democracy and self-government for the various principalities. From the influences on the language and the form of government, the very impacts of the Mongol invasion are still evident today. Perhaps given the chance to experience the Renaissance, as did other western European cultures, the political, religious, and social thought of Russia would greatly differ from that of the reality of today. The Russians, through the control of the Mongols who had adopted many ideas of government and economics from the Chinese, became perhaps a more Asiatic nation in terms of government, while the deep Christian roots of the Russians established and helped maintain a link with Europe. It was the Mongol invasion which, perhaps more than any other historical event, helped to determine the course of development that Russian culture, political geography, history, and national identity would take.

Compare this to descriptions of pre-Mongol Invasion civilization of Rus, such as:

http://www.oocities.org/medievalnovgorod/

And:

Kievan Rus', although sparsely populated compared to Western Europe,[33] was not only the largest contemporary European state in terms of area but also culturally advanced.[34] Literacy in Kiev, Novgorod and other large cities was high.[35][36] As birch bark documents attest, they exchanged love letters and prepared cheat sheets for schools. Novgorod had a sewage system[37] and wood paving not often found in other cities at the time. The Russkaya Pravda confined punishments to fines and generally did not use capital punishment.[38] Certain inalienable rights were accorded to women, such as property and inheritance rights.[39][40][41]

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/kievan-rus#ixzz2Ys9M7REt

Here a website with many articles about Kievan Rus:

http://kievan-rus.appspot.com/ruslinks.html

========================


Link to video.

 

[Dachs]

From tributes!

Seems to me like the tributes were just going in a different direction and consisted of slightly different things; less of an obligation to provide soldiers, more of an obligation to provide goods in kind and cash.

Read this article Dachs:

http://www.sras.org/the_effects_of_the_mongol_empire_on_russia

Yeah, I read through about two-thirds of that article and couldn't be bothered to finish it. You don't think that it's the tiniest bit sketchy that Mr. Hosseini's talking about "Asiatic modes of government" as though that term even means anything, or that there's a claim that IF NOT FOR THE MONGOLS, RENAISSANCE!!!111

Those are the same inane platitudes and groundless assertions that I've seen elsewhere. With exactly the same amount of persuasiveness to them, that is to say, none.

 

[ptoss1]

Truth is, without the Mongols, Russia would never have come into existence, gunpowder warfare would never have developed as we know it, or at least not by the Europeans, and the age of colonization would not have begun due to the lack of stability and spread of information.

The travelogues of Marco Polo caused such speculation that other adventurers like Christopher Colombus were spurred to exploration. Without the Mongols nothing as we know it would exist. Who cares how developed the world was before the Mongols...

There is some speculation that without the Mongols, the Renaissance would not even have happened, so the argument that without the Mongols the Russians would have participated in the Renaissance is moot. The Renaissance also happened over several decades. If the Russians weren't going to participate it certainly wasn't because of the Mongols.

The Mongols also never ravaged the European societies in the way they did with the Middle East and Chinese areas of influence. Once they showed their superiority in combat and raiding a few villages they mainly stayed away and remained content with tributes of craftsmen, slaves, and other materials of value since most of their main troops left for Monglia when Ogedei died. Of all the peoples invaded by the Mongols, the Hungarians, Polish, and Russian states were the least affected.

Europeans should be glad Kublai decided to settle in China and try to invade Japan instead of carrying onwards to the west. They received the most benefits out of the Monglian conquests without even know it.

 

[Lord Baal]

Firstly, butterflies.

Secondly, Kublai really didn't have the option of striking at Europe. He would have had to go to war with his own vassals on the ways, and it would have been much harder for Kublai to reconquer Genghis and Ogadei's empire than it was for them to conquer it in the first place.

 

[Domen]

Truth is, without the Mongols, Russia would never have come into existence

This is true, because the Principality of Moscow - which later transformed into the Tsardom of Russia - could grow into importance only because the power of other cities declines. The Mongol Invasion totally changed the balance of power in Rus - the Mongols devastated the Southern Rus, while leaving the Northern Rus relatively unharmed. This created a huge power vacuum everywhere between Halych-Volhynia (westernmost part of Rus, which also remained relatively unharmed by Mongols), Lithuania and Northern Rus. The rapid expansion of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania into Rus (both via conquest and via political treaties and marriages) was possible precisely thanks to the Mongol devastation of that land, which greatly dimnished their ability and even their willingness to resist a foreign expansion. The same applies to Muscovy. Novgorod did not achieve what Moscow did mainly because it was busy on its western border - fighting against Denmark and the Livonian Order. So without the Mongol Invasion, Russia as we know it today, probably wouldn't exit - because Moscow would never become so important. However, some other Principality of Rus would eventually become dominant. So some state would exist there - except that it would not be "Muscovite Russia", but maybe reunited Kievan Rus. And perhaps the Grand Duchy of Lithuania would never become so large as it really was. Probably also separate from Russia Ukraine and Belarus would not exist today - all these three modern states would be part of one state, with capital city most probably in Kiev or somewhere else in area of modern Ukraine. Moscowo would be just one of many towns of this state. Lithuania and Poland would never expand so far to the east as they did in reality, if not the Mongol Invasion of Rus. On the other hand, Poland would never loose its western and northern lands - Pomerania and Silesia - if not the Mongol Invasion. Also the state of the Teutonic Order would be a rather short lived entity in such case - if not the death of Duke Henryk Pobożny in the battle of Legnica, unification of Poland would be much faster (perhaps 50 years earlier) than it was in reality - with power center in Silesia, instead of Lesser Poland - and the Teutonic Order would be expelled from Poland by Henryk Pobożny or his heirs, like it had been expelled from Hungary by King Andrew II in 1224. Prussia would become Polish or Lithuanian.

gunpowder warfare would never have developed as we know it, or at least not by the Europeans

This is not true - gunpowder was adopted by Europeans from the Arabs, not from the Mongols.

Gunpowder warfare would be the same. We do not need the Mongols for this in Europe. Of course the Arabs adopted gunpowder from the east - maybe from the Mongols, or directly from the Chinese. But we are talking about alternative history only in the context of the Mongol invasion of Europe - other Mongol conquests stay as they were, we only assume that they never decided to invade Eastern Europe in this alternative scenario.

The travelogues of Marco Polo caused such speculation that other adventurers like Christopher Colombus were spurred to exploration. Without the Mongols nothing as we know it would exist.

Once again - we are not assuming that the Mongols did not exist, we only assume that they did not invade Rus or that their invasion failed.

Moreover - between Marco Polo and Columbus there were 250 years. Travels of Columbus were not inspired by Marco Polo at all.

There is some speculation that without the Mongols, the Renaissance would not even have happened,

These are nonsensical speculations.

The Renaissance would not have happened without the Arabs - and without the Crusades, when Europeans interacted with the Arabs.

Once again the Mongols had nothing to do with this.

The Muslims became the keepers of Ancient Greek and Roman knowledge, which later was acquired by Europeans and triggered the Renaissance.

Also the decline of the Byzantine Empire triggered the Renaissance - Byzantines were escaping to Italy from the Turks, bringing knowledge with them.

However, if not the decline of the Byzantine Empire and Rus, the Renaissance could have happened either in the Byzantine Empire or in Rus - because these two states had very intense cultural relations with each other. Rus before the Mongol Invasion had higher level of literacy than Western Europe.

If the Russians weren't going to participate it certainly wasn't because of the Mongols.

It was partially because of the Mongols (and also because of Byzantine decline). The Mongol way of ruling was opposite to Renaissance ideas.

How could the Mongols - people whose way of life and way of ruling - was totally against all Renaissance ideas, trigger the Renaissance?

Such claims are nonsensical, as I already wrote above.

The Mongols also never ravaged the European societies in the way they did with the Middle East and Chinese areas of influence.

This is totally wrong.

Population of Hungary declined from over 2 million in year 1222 to at most 1.2 million in year 1242 - due to the Mongol Invasion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hungary#900.E2.80.931910

Similar population losses were suffered by Rus.

Major cities which resisted the invaders - such as Kiev and Chernigiov - were completely ravaged and burnt to the ground.

In year 1241 Kiev had more inhabitants than in year 1845 !!! The Mongols destroyed it so totally that it could not recover during 600 years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev#Demographics

So claims that the Mongols did not ravage European societies are completely false.

Of all the peoples invaded by the Mongols, the Hungarians, Polish, and Russian states were the least affected.

Of these three - Rus, Hungary and Poland - Poland was indeed affected much less than the other two.

But even Poland suffered greatly. Poland's capital city - Cracow - was destroyed by the Mongols.

Many other cities were also destroyed. Several dozen thousand people were enslaved.

They received the most benefits out of the Monglian conquests without even know it.

No benefits came to Europe from the Mongols.

As I wrote before - all Chinese technological achievements were brought to Europe by the Arabs and Turks, not by the Mongols.

The Arabs maybe adopted those technological achievements via the Mongols, but they eventually came to Europe via the Arabs.

=========================================

It should be noted that before the Mongol conquest, Rus was better developed economically than Poland. Both states suffered from the Mongols - but Rus suffered more than Poland. This changed the balance of power between Poland and Rus, and allowed for Polish eastward expansion in the 1300s - after Poland was reunited (even though some regions - such as Silesia and Pomerania - were not reunited and lost to foreign powers), while Rus stayed fragmented.

In my opinion if not the Mongol Invasion, Poland and Lithuania would probably never grow strong enough - relative to Rus - to be able to expand so far to the east at the expense of Rus (culmination of that expansion was in 1610, when Poland captured Moscow), but also would remain strong enough to keep Silesia, Pomerania and to smash the Teutonic Order soon after it became disobedient - rather than fighting against it for a few hundred years.

In other words - we would have post-1945 political borders in Europe already in the 1300s, the 1400s and later. When it comes to Poland - the biggest harm inflicted by the Mongols, was the death of Duke Henryk Pobożny at Legnica. Henryk Pobożny was a senior duke who reunited most of Poland before 1241 - his death in 1241 delayed the reunification for over 50 years and caused the fact that Poland lost its economically most important region - Silesia.

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[Wrymouth3]

Henryk Pobożny was a senior duke who reunited most of Poland before 1241 - his death in 1241 delayed the reunification for over 50 years and caused the fact that Poland lost its economically most important region - Silesia.

Looks like Polish magicians and warlocks suck at their job. You have to do more than summon a fireball to try and spectacularly fail to save one lousy province.

 

[TheLastOne36]

I wonder if the Rus' being fragmentated contributed or detracted from it's expansion path. On one side, you'd think the lack of centralized control and bitter infighting would prevent organized expansion, but on the other, second sons or general losers of the infighting of and within the Rurik dynasty would look to establish themselves in new lands, as was the case with the sons of Vseslav Bryachislavich, whom established principalities in Minsk, Vitebsk, and even in Latvia before the Mongols ravaged Southern Rus' and those principalities fell to Lithuania and the Livonion Order.

It's also rather curious to wonder where Poland would expand if it could not expand east-wards. In a Mongol-less scenario, I'd imagine those Rus' principalities would further develop and expand and we would've seen a Rus' Baltics, rather than a Polish Samogitia. Really only Kaliningrad could feasibly be Polish. From there, where? Western Pomerania and the HRE?

 

[red_elk]

It's also rather curious to wonder where Poland would expand if it could not expand east-wards.

Inwards.

 

[Domen]

It's also rather curious to wonder where Poland would expand if it could not expand east-wards.

Inwards.

Red Elk - I don't know if intentionally or not - hit the nail on the head in this case!

Some historians have been suggesting the same thing as now expressed by Red Elk - that Poland's eastward expansion caused the dispersal and overextension of Poland's resources, economy, population. Poland acquired territories that were less developed than core Polish provinces - due to this fact, a natural process that followed was evening out the level of development, which means that the development speed of core Polish provinces slowed down, while the development speed of new eastern territories was faster. Without eastward expansion, Poland would develop inwards - exactly as Red Elk pointed out.

Especially lands acquired by Poland in 1569 - as the result of the Union of Lublin - were far less developed than core Polish provinces.

But already in 1385 - after the Union of Krewo - Poland started to "civilize" Lithuania, dispersing its own economic and demographic resources.

one lousy province.

Silesia was a very precious province and well-developed - definitely not a lousy one.

I wrote about this in this thread on another forum:

http://historum.com/european-histor...-culture-history-years-ca-1300-ca-1900-a.html

During the 12th century numerous deposits of gold were discovered in Silesia. Already in years 1180 - 1240 over 200 kg of gold were being extracted each year from new mines in Kamienna, Bóbr, Kaczawa, Bystrzyca, near Lwówek Śląski, Bolesławiec and Złotoryja. In the 14th century further deposits of gold were discovered near Legnickie Pole, Mikołajowice and Wądroż Wielki. But perhaps the oldest (and later also the largest) gold mine in Silesia was near the town of Złoty Stok - where traces of extracting gold in mines could be found already since the 10th century period.

Złoty Stok became the largest gold mining centre in Silesia - with over 110 kg of gold extracted each year at its peak.

At that time the gold to silver value ratio was like 11 to 1 or more.

Other mineral resources were also extracted in Medieval Silesia - copper, iron, lead and silver.

From there, where? Western Pomerania and the HRE?

Western Pomerania had been under more or less direct Polish control throughout much of the Early Middle Ages. However, Poland lost control over Western Pomerania before the Mongol Invasion - in the 12th century - when that land was annexed by Denmark and Saxon dukes. Poland lost the opportunity to directly annex at least part of Western Pomerania due to its political fragmentation following the exile of the High Duke of Poland Władysław II the Exiled in 1146. Polabian Crusades (which eventually ended also with conquest of already Christianized by Polish Church Western Pomerania) started in 1147 - one year after Poland lost its internal political integrity, due to violation of Bolesław III the Wrymouth's testament. It is possible that Poland would regain control over Western Pomerania somewhere in the 13th or the 14th - 15th centuries, if not the Mongol Invasion. But this is in the sphere of speculations. With a much greater level of probability we can tell that Poland would never lose Silesia and Eastern Pomerania if not the Mongol Invasion and - first of all - the death of Henryk Pobożny at Legnica.

Had Władysław II the Exiled not been exiled in 1146, united Poland would have taken part in Polabian Crusades since 1147 - partitioning Polabia and Western Pomerania together with Denmark and Saxon dukes, rather than leaving entire area to be annexed by the last two mentioned entities.

In reality only one Polish duke - Mieszko III - took part in the crusade of 1147. But he was not even willing to attack Polabian Slavs from the east alone, so his army just waited at the Odra River, doing nothing. Saxon dukes on the other hand sent two armies - one under Henry the Lion and one under Albrecht the Bear.

Denmark also sent two armies transported by two fleets via the Baltic Sea.

There is no surprise that Mieszko III was unwilling to support the Saxon dukes - vassals of the Emperor - in 1147, considering that just one year earlier - in 1146 - he was fighting against the Emperor who launched an invasion of Poland in order to help the High Duke of Poland - Władysław II the Exiled - who had been expelled by his younger brothers (including Mieszko III). The Emperor* was an ally of the exiled High Duke of Poland and he was unfriendly towards his brothers.

The Emperor's invasion in 1146 - with participation of followers of Władysław II who escaped with him to Germany - failed to put Władysław on the Polish throne again. This is the only German invasion of Poland in history which I regret that it failed - if it succeeded, Poland would remain a unified kingdom!

Really only Kaliningrad could feasibly be Polish.

Most of Prussia could be Polish, because the Teutonic Order (invited to Poland and to Polish-Prussian borderland already in the 1220s by Polish dukes) would help Poland conquer Pagan Prussians but would never grow strong enough to establish its own independent state there, which later became disobedient and started fighting against Poland - like it took place in historical reality. The future of Lithuanians would remain doubtful in such case.

But probably Lithuania would survive as a political entity, because Mindaugas united Lithuanian tribes already before the Mongol Invasion.

However, expansion into lands of Rus would have been much more difficult for the Lithuanians in case of a Mongol-less European history.

It also should be noted that Mindaugas was baptised already in 1251 - but in 1261 he returned to Paganism due to political reasons.

==============================================

*Technically he was never crowned Emperor though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_III_of_Germany#Life_and_reign

In the same year, Conrad entered Bohemia to reinstate his brother-in-law Vladislav II as prince. The attempt to do the same with another brother-in-law, the Polish prince Ladislaus the Exile, failed.

Conrad was never crowned emperor and continued to style himself "King of the Romans" until his death.

The civil war between younger brothers and the High Duke (Princeps and Senior) of Poland Władysław (Ladislaus) II took place - with some short ceasefires - between 1141 and 1146, when finally the High Duke was defeated by his united younger brothers who forced him to escape from Poland (he escaped to Germany) - that rebellion against Princeps and Senior was a violation of Bolesław III the Wrymouth's testament, which never aimed at fragmenting Poland politically. Had the German invasion with participation of Polish followers of Władysław, who had also escaped with him to Germany, succeeded, Poland would have remained a unified kingdom - perhaps with just one direct ruler, since Władysław would have taken revenge on his brothers. The feudal-political fragmentation of Poland would have never taken place in such case (except the short period 1141 - 1147), but Germans are never successful when they should be!

 

[Dmytro]

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/05/14/how-moscow-hijacked-the-history-of-kyivan-rus/

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