[C3C] (How) Would you nerf Republic?

[tjs282]

Just looking for ideas for a mod-in-progress here. I want to keep most of the basic (C3C) gameplay and tech/unit progression in place, but at the same time help the AI to make 'better' decisions (so it gets harder to beat without needing stupid-generous production/research bonii), and also (if possible) subvert/ close off some of the more egregious no-brainer decisions that a (veteran) human player tends to rely on for each and every (epic) game.

(Which, BTW, is why I'm asking this question here in the General Civ3 forum, rather than in C&C!)

One of the obvious biggie here is the pretty-much-default 'Eternal Republic', pretty-much-regardless of map-size/-type, Civ chosen, intended VC, starting position, etc.

Spoiler :

I mean, I do understand this one: with +1 commerce-bonus, low corruption, low WW, reasonably good unit-support (once you've got a 1st-ring of Pop7+ cities established, anyway), what's not to like...? But that's exactly the 'problem': since there's rarely any (long-term) downside or limiting factor to choosing Republic over Monarchy (or Feudalism), there is no 'real' decision to make here. And the later governments might as well not even exist, either, because it's rarely worth suffering the 9T of Anarchy needed to switch govs a second time.* (And, really, does any human player ever go Fascist?)

Sooo... if you (yes, you!) are one of those players who routinely switches to Republic as soon as you can, and then stays in it for the whole game, what minimal (and feasible!) changes might be made -- to Republic, and/or any of the other governments, and/or the buildings, and/or the general corruption settings -- which might make you personally think twice about going this route?

To get the ball rolling, I'll list some of the ideas I've had (or stolen!) for nerfs/buffs which might make an Eternal (Ancient) Republic less desirable, without hamstringing it completely. I have no idea which of them -- alone or in combination -- would be most effective, though...

Spoiler :

• Lose the commerce-bonus, but still enjoy lower corruption than Monarchy/Feudalism
• Keep the commerce-bonus -- but make the Forbidden Palace available only to Monarchies (Republic might unlock its own FP-equivalent later, e.g. a 'Supreme Court' with the Democracy/ Nationalism tech)
• Feudalism keeps its free-unit support and low WW, but gets Communal corruption -- plus the Despot-penalty!
• Democracy keeps its current commerce-bonus and high WW, but gets Communal corruption (and/or a second FP-type improvement)
• Rename the current Republic as e.g. 'Modern Republic' (to be unlocked with e.g. Democracy/ Nationalism); then add a new 'Ancient Republic' gov which keeps the commerce-bonus, but gets one or more of
  • Higher corruption
  • No FP
  • Lower free unit-support (e.g. 0/1/2)
  • Whip-rushing
• Keep Republic as is, but limit early town-growth, e.g. by making Aqueducts require a River (NB this flag simply requires a town to have at least one BFC-tile with a river along at least one border); a non-river-requiring 'Sewage Works' improvement might be unlocked later by e.g. Sanitation (which I've already rearranged to lead to Sci.Method --> Medicine, rather than vice versa)

If you think none of the above would be sufficiently persuasive (or just plain wouldn't work), and/or have any better ideas, and/or especially if you've already done some modding yourself, please feel free to contribute your tuppence' worth below...

Note that much as I respect @Civinator's work I would rather not go the full CCM-route here and give all Civs the Religious trait to minimise Anarchy-periods, since (1) that takes away the one major advantage of the Religious Civs, and (2) I want to be able to use (half-price) Temples and Cathedrals as prerequisites for the Religious Wonders...

 

[Nathiri]

I lean to just making early growth harder. This then makes Feudalism a much better gov. So the Aqueduct requiring a river within its radius, would make the game more interesting in city placement. I should of thought of that one before! (although I did do something similar in my fantasy mod) I had thought of it for other improvements, but not for growth like this. This would be more realistic too, because Rome for example needed a supply of water from some distance away to maintain high population.

This alone does not reduce Republic, but it does make Feudalism a bit more use, because if close cities without a river is chosen, then Feudalism more use automatically with high unit support. I would suggest a bit more though. So maybe reduce monarchy's military police by 1, so it makes Feudalism slightly more viable if not many luxuries around. Since Feudalism is more of a short-term gov I think, it should be more valuable. In time you usually pick up luxuries from the warfare use of Feudalism, so eventually you will switch. Monarchy has some long-term benefits like 8 unit support for metros. Feudalism also has War Weariness, compared to Monarchy's none.

Now for an extra Republic nerf, I'd suggest to do as you said, to remove Forbidden Palace from being buildable, and maybe reduce unit support by 1 for Cities and Metros.

I do not think this reduces Monarchy's role by that much, because you do not get war weariness, you have less unit gpt cost, it comes earlier than feudalism, you get higher unit support than republic if size 2, and 8 unit support metros, so its life could be longer. You then have the FP incentive. So Monarchy is a good stepping stone gov still if you want to grow your cities for later use. Feudalism less so, but obviously could still be counteracted with many many cities if you want to grow some.

I still see reasons to choose all 3 of them. Perhaps Monarchy is a little too long-life, then reduce 8 unit support to 6?

I'd suggest to look at Fascism too. Although maybe Communism is what you need to nerf. Like give Communism, low war weariness, less Military Police (-2 -3?), 2-3 unit gpt cost.

 

[Theov]

I opted to improve the other govs in my mod.
I added Theocracy, trying to make a good war/catch up gov and Libertarianism which is a good gov to close off the game.
Feudalism allowes for a government small wonder that produces units.
I am still tweaking this part, but as you said I dont want to change the Republic but I want to help the AI if it goes for another gov.

 

[justanick]

Feudalism keeps its free-unit support and low WW, but gets Communal corruption -- plus the Despot-penalty!

That would be too weak. Communal corruption prior to courthouses is weak, no need for despotism penalty. Just give feudalism communal corruption and the step to communism will still be improvement enough.

Democracy keeps its current commerce-bonus and high WW, but gets Communal corruption (and/or a second FP-type improvement)

Communal corruption and commerce bonus would be way too powerful.

I would rather not go the full CCM-route here and give all Civs the Religious trait to minimise Anarchy-periods,

That however would be the best choice, at least for human player. For AI you can simply set the max anarchy period in the difficulty settings down to 3 which means that any anarchy period must be shorter than 3 turns. Or set it to 2, than any anarchy will be 1 turn expect for religious civs, there it will be 2 turns. There is no way around the later.

1. Change the difficulty settings so that AI is not hindered by its eagerness to revolt.
2. Keep communism and democracy as they are.
3. Give feudalism communal corruption.
4. Give monarchy minimal corruption.
5. Give despotism problematic corruption instead of enormous corruption.
6. Give republic enormous corruption.
7. Give facism enormous corruption but also the commerce bonus.

Facism would become a later version of republic, communism would be a later version of feudalism and democracy would be a later version of monarchy.

 

[tjs282]

Communal corruption prior to courthouses is weak, no need for despotism penalty. Just give feudalism communal corruption and the step to communism will still be improvement enough.

I would appreciate some explanation on this: Why do you specify 'prior to Courthouses'? Courthouses come with Code_Of_Laws, so are already available as an improvement to a Feudalist town. That's why I was thinking to give Feud the Despot-penalty, so that its total output would still be lower than Communism (which gets neither despot-penalty nor commerce-bonus). Or did you mean "prior to Police Stations"?

...
4. Give monarchy minimal corruption.
5. Give despotism problematic corruption instead of enormous corruption.
6. Give republic enormous corruption.
...

Wha...? Should (1)-(7) be read as a list of possible simple changes to one or other gov, or as a complete, integrated package, all of which would need to be implemented to be 'effective'?

If the latter — and leaving aside the others for now — wouldn't (4)-(6) alone make Republic completely unattractive as an option? Under what circumstances might anyone then choose it while playing a 'normal' epic-game (not 1CC or 5CC)?

Facism would become a later version of republic, ... democracy would be a later version of monarchy

Are your politics showing here...?

I guess my overall intent is to do something like you describe, though: make the Ancient Age Governments (much) more suited to running small (i.e. early game, or Archi) empires, and either relatively or absolutely increase the value of the Industrial Age govs to large (mid-/late-game, Continental/Pangaea) empires, to make a second switch more worthy of consideration. That's why I was thinking Democracy should get the Communal corruption plus Commerce-bonus: that's intended to make it more attractive (to the human) as a peaceful/powerful government (the AI always uses Demo while at peace anyway). I was thinking to make Universal Suffrage a happiness-increasing Small Wonder which only works under Demo, as well...

(And maybe also remove the ability to make the so-easily-abused MPPs, and jiggle the Industrial Age tech-tree, so that the AI doesn't even see the totalitarian gov-techs until after they've done the more important early-era techs: Industrialization being a prereq for Communism, and Corporation for Fascism -- and now my politics are showing... )

I'm also thinking about ways to nerf the gold/beaker-farming tactic, e.g. by requiring Specialists to be 'paid' for their services (-1 gpt; apart from Taxmen, who'll pay for themselves), not sure if that will work though; and/or improving the 'aesthetics' of city-placement, by disallowing Settlement on non-fertile (no more Pop1 Tundra- and Desert-farms!) and vegetated terrains (Forests / Jungles / Marsh first requiring colonisation or clearance; but giving Settlers the chop/clear abilities, faster than Workers).

Other significant terrain changes that I'm considering (mostly for the AI's benefit — apart from the Agricultural Civs!): Plains to give an unimprovable 2f,1s (still roadable, Forest-able with Ecology), Jungles to give 2f,0s, Deserts non-irrigable, Hills irrigable, Volcanoes roadable. All heavy units (Knights onwards) to be Wheeled...

 

[justanick]

I would appreciate some explanation on this: Why do you specify 'prior to Courthouses'? Courthouses come with Code_Of_Laws, so are already available as an improvement to a Feudalist town.

But until they are build up quite some time will pass. 80 shields are not cheap. Distance corruption in communism is 25%, 12.5% with courthouse(or police station) and 6.25% with courthouse and police station.

Keep in mind that the unit support in feudalism is a straight road to ruining your net economic output. Feudalism is the one government that can only be an intermediary state.

Wha...? Should (1)-(7) be read as a list of possible simple changes to one or other gov, or as a complete, integrated package, all of which would need to be implemented to be 'effective'?

It is meant as a complete package. Arguably the balance between democracy and facism is quite bad. If as i suggested fascism gets the commerce bonus, than its unit support would need to be nerfed, say to the same 1-3-4 as republic, but only 1 gtp above the limit. The goal was to avoid the republic only strategy, was it not?

If the latter — and leaving aside the others for now — wouldn't (4)-(6) alone make Republic completely unattractive as an option?

No. Until a different government with commerce bonus comes a long Republic would still be the best choice for fast research.

Are your politics showing here...?

Probably not. Feudalism to communism should be obvious. Republic and Facism as described would be best for compact empires, there is some continuity, too. Monarchy and democracy would be best for empires covering large space with a mediocre amount of cities.

I guess my overall intent is to do something like you describe, though: make the Ancient Age Governments (much) more suited to running small (i.e. early game, or Archi) empires, and either relatively or absolutely increase the value of the Industrial Age govs to large (mid-/late-game, Continental/Pangaea) empires, to make a second switch more worthy of consideration.

I donnot believe there is a good way to achieve exactly that. My proposal does make a second switch reasonable, only monarchy to democracy is not a clear improvement.

 

[md4]

Although it's been mentioned elsewhere (and has its own thread), I'll throw it in here for discussion from more knowledgable folk (as I am a decidedly mid-tier recreational player who generally oscillates between Monarch/Regent difficulty), I simply went with:

• Corruption to Problematic
• War Weariness to High

Now Democracy gives +2 efficiency, and with the flat 1g maintenance costs will outscale Republic for upkeep costs past a certain point that you're likely to reach by the industrial age. I have waged a couple of early wars with my new Republic settings, and I can say that without Universal Sufferage/Police Stations it was not a fun experience. Any serious thought of a prolonged military campaign should guide you into the open arms of Monarchy pretty quickly.

 

[Civinator]

I made a post, that also contains an idea about nerfing government Republic here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/making-other-government-types-viable.659938/#post-15817954

 

[Fergei]

Although it's been mentioned elsewhere (and has its own thread), I'll throw it in here for discussion from more knowledgable folk (as I am a decidedly mid-tier recreational player who generally oscillates between Monarch/Regent difficulty), I simply went with:

• Corruption to Problematic
• War Weariness to High

Now Democracy gives +2 efficiency, and with the flat 1g maintenance costs will outscale Republic for upkeep costs past a certain point that you're likely to reach by the industrial age. I have waged a couple of early wars with my new Republic settings, and I can say that without Universal Sufferage/Police Stations it was not a fun experience. Any serious thought of a prolonged military campaign should guide you into the open arms of Monarchy pretty quickly.

Did you find that the AI was coping financially under Republic and wasn't making dumb decisions?

 

[md4]

Did you find that the AI was coping financially under Republic

Much better than my initial attempt, yes. In some games there always seems to be an AI that is perpetually broke (or near to), but on the whole they seemed to be refilling their coffers regularly for me to empty them again with wonderous new technologies.

and wasn't making dumb decisions?

Not sure there's anything any of us can do about that.

 

[Fergei]

I have no idea why this took me 5 years, but I belatedly went with md4s move of making Republic corruption problematic (I kept it low war weariness). After a few games I conclude that the AI will generally favour Monarchy over it (60/40 ish). I bring Feudalism to Code of Laws and it makes the AI even consider keeping Feudalism over Republic in rate instances. It creates a lot more variation.

The human will likely still strongly favour Republic but will have to give much much stronger consideration on a shift to Democracy (or Communism / Fascism). A simple change with no downside that I can detect.

 

[kaskavel]

I think that creating an environment that will support different governments really demands toying with the duration of anarchy, which in turn means toying with the religious trait and difficulty level.
I used to imagine (this cannot be done by editing) how nice it would be if republic would get the commerce bonus only in tiles that already produce two commerce. This would make it attractive in cases lots of sea and river exist, but not otherwise.

 

[Civinator]

I think that creating an environment that will support different governments really demands toying with the duration of anarchy, which in turn means toying with the religious trait and difficulty level.

With C3X the time for anarchy can be reduced in several variations without using the religious trait.

 

[kaskavel]

With C3X the time for anarchy can be reduced in several variations without using the religious trait.

Yes...but in order to keep the balance, you need to compensate the religious trait somehow...

 

[Fergei]

Personally I make it longer but less harsh.

 

[justanick]

Personally I make it longer but less harsh.

Making anarchy even longer does not seem like a good idea to me. Making it less harsh seems like an interesting idea:

Give anarchy the corruption level of despotism, but retain the despotism penalty, add building maintenance and unit support of democracy and the war weariness of republic.
Remove the despotism penalty from despotism, but mitigate the free unit support from 4/4/4 to 4/2/1, making it a poor choice once you reach city size.
Give republic the corruption level of despotism. It will still be good, but democracy becomes more reasonable.

 

[Theov]

You can also play with the "xenophobia" flag. This makes newly conquered towns less attractive, making an expanding civ (thru war) less... runnaway.
Xenophobia should be the default setting, even.
"population decrease on change" is it called iirc, is another flag that can nerf a gov

 

[CivDude86]

Chance of switching to Fascism every 4 years.

 

[Spoonwood]

Chance of switching to Fascism every 4 years.

Nope. Never done it! Maybe when I first learned the game to test it?!