How Would You Solve the Late Game Problem?

In some past games they have drawn distinctions with regards to empire upkeep - happiness/gold etc - between citizens working tiles and specialists.
There's a lot that could be done by having, for example, some approaches that make specialists produce more loyalty, or maybe farmers are happier, or perhaps some pro-environmentalism (thinking of GS) would piss off those miners. You could tinker with how much food/housing/amenities they consume and how much science/culture/loyalty they produce.

If there was a clean and intuitive way to integrate it (ie, not random chance, but something that the player knew would happen) I wouldn't mind having a better rebellion mechanic if your empire becomes too sprawling without the player supplying the necessary infrastructure. (Perhaps amenities for internal and loyalty for external rebellion.)
In terms of infrastructure it would be interesting to have other soft limits than housing and food for population growth. Like how you can build sewers but all they do is give housing, I think there should be other aspects like sanitation and transit and raw materials need for expansion.
 
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I feel like there should be a quicker way to get a score victory without having to wait till the end-turns.

Yes, and I think that is the point of my new domination victory idea. Maybe it could be based on score instead? If your score after the midpoint is say 3x bigger than the second civ, why keep playing to turn 500? Why shouldn't the game at that point say "you are so far ahead, you win"?
 
Lots of great ideas here. To summarise my own views, based on what I have read here.

1. Build on the loyalty mechanic, by re-introducing Culture/Ideology elements from Civ4/Civ5 (especially cultural pressures at the border & ethnic mixing in cities).

2. Have negative events make it harder to achieve a regular or golden age-& have positive events make it easier to enter these ages.

3. Make victories much more dynamic-be able to lose ground due to inattentiveness as much as you can gain ground.

3. Have pollution mechanics that can have more local impacts (like negative city health, reduced amenities & the chance of certain tiles losing their productivity.

4. Give Dark Ages their own "dedications", & Golden Ages their own Policy Cards.
 
In general, I would like to see a more dynamic game throughout. The Golden Age/Dark Age & loyalty systems were a step in the right direction, but definitely need to be extended upon. Semi-random events (good & bad) beyond natural disasters would help too. Also, how about we bring back the concept of State vs Non-State religions & their impacts on Diplomacy & Domestic Cohesion.....perhaps even a chance of a religious schism. More later game infrastucture for our Neighbourhoods & City Centers would also be excellent.

That said, I am finding myself sticking with my games to the end much more since BNW & Civ6 came out, than any previous iteration of the game.
 
Major, disruptive late game global conflicts like the world wars.

Yes, that could be great but it would require the AI to be a lot better at waging wars in the late game. I've had instances of late game world wars but the AI declares war and then does nothing.
 
Major, disruptive late game global conflicts like the world wars.

If Military Alliances/Defense Pacts actually forced joint wars.....then we might see more of that. Players & AI's could try and refuse, but this would end the diplomatic relationship & cost a lot of favour with multiple civs.
 
Evil gods. Civs focused on total destruction of science, or faith, or both, just because they earned a very particular general, scientist, artist, prophet, whatever, that changes the overall agenda and conditions of a civ for the time being, if he is not killed, or sold to someone else, that would then receive that special gift ; just one victory type, kill everyone on map, regardless of any warmongering mechanism...
Unit kills without war declaration. Trespassing intimidations.
Scientists, merchants, generals, engineers, back to power districts as it was in civ IV. Slain, torture, and kidnap of them
External border operations, like Antarctica Science stations, where International team works together for advancement without the need to possess the tiles to build this structures.
Same for Great library in ancient times, we need to build it to discover classicism pre-conditional techs, we need to tear it apart to get to classical era, torch it to the ground.
Eureka bottleneck mod is not working. Not if we can't trade, steal, the Eureka or tech somewhere else!
We need to postpone writings to at least 10 other pre-techs.
We need to force AI to struggle for collaboration efforts in order to get to Laboratory with this scientists forced science trading, made difficult,
Evil nature. You get Einstein and Fermi killed? You get no Space missions victory chances at all untill another scientist can replace them in some
out of border international station, or Evil island secret lab well hidden in some remote island guarded by mercenary U-boots.
Have way more satellites options like Beyond Earth, comms operations, to overcome a new fog of war mechanism necessary
in order to make this ordeal work...


As Steven Spielberg in one of his films once said, life always finds its way...
 
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Yes, that could be great but it would require the AI to be a lot better at waging wars in the late game. I've had instances of late game world wars but the AI declares war and then does nothing.

Because it sees Science victory too easily achieavable, often it ends up with my civ against one other major civ, that does nothing except focusing on space victory, and just by pillaging space districts, you get an easy win, too easy. There must be some Evil victory conditions set perhaps, where you get your win by killing the more units, AI must see a prize in focusing to kill units, burn down cities, like victory points needs a general revamping. It is absurd that even when I get a total domination victory, my status might be that of Nerone at best!!

We badly need a total annihilation victory type, and hopefully a Kill the leader option, where leaders are actual units, with hero powers.
 
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It is true that in most games, especially multiplayer, one or a few dominant players have kind of already won since mid game and if not playing one of them, passing turns to see them win is boring. Even when winning in solo, dominating late game without resistance is boring.
In a later thread I detailed two new victories in order to change that. An economic victory would be fun, with war for resources monopolies and offensive trade routes, but it would still be like domination. However, a new collective victory could create tensions till the end. It would allow players with no more chance to win to gang up in some federation (merging science and culture yields) against dominant players to prevent them to win and bring peace.
 
a typical computer game stays challenging because of rising difficulty
in civ the difficulty is falling because of the snowball effect
opponents can snowball too but you do it faster or you are losing early and losing hopelessly is even more boring than a guaranteed win
ideally, rubberbands should pull up opponents very close to the leader, but for such a long game as civ, to design a rubberband which would work well during the whole game isnt quite possible so maybe there should be not a rubberband but rather a rocket (to which a losing player ties himself trying to overtake the leaders).
so, a losing civ soars up, with a chance to overturn the situation, or to fail miserably (not a big deal for a losing civ).
towards the end more and more civs should do that, trying to use the last chance. it can feel crazy but fun.
technically, such power up could be a bonus, very strong but temporary. the player has to do something, e.g. take a city every X turns (and this period decreases), not losing own cities. with each city taken the bonus rises, but if the player fails a single time, the bonus vanishes, while he is at war with all the players from the top half of the score table (thats the price of this 'rocket'). there could be similar powerups for different victory types, or some generic ones good for any vic. unlocked at certain late game techs/civics.
for the leader this will mean a chance to lose, if not to a 'rocket' civ but, if it has crippled the leader enough, to subdominants. so in the late game he will be occupied with fighting emerging threats.
 
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I would say presenting new challenges like financial crashes, terrorism, treaty negotiations, and giving a small chance for new territories to appear on the map (whether new countries to settle or resource nodes to exploit) would make a globalized world come alive more in the late game.
 
It has been said many times but I think the #1 reason why players lose interest before the latter eras is because most games are already decided by the mid game. Why keep playing when you know you are going to win? In almost all my games, I know by the renaissance era, sometimes sooner, if I am going to win or not. This is due in large part to civs always growing and never falling. So if I have successfully conquered a few of my neighbors and have carved out a sizeable empire for myself by the end of the classical era, I know I am just going to get even bigger and my opponents will never be a threat to me. Once the initial expansion/conquest phase in the early game is finished, the rest of the game is just building the right stuff in your cities until you eventually win. This phase of the game can feel tedious because there is rarely any challenge. It's just hundreds of turns of selecting the next thing to build. This is why I often don't finish my games. Once I establish a nice empire, I feel like I accomplished the most important thing. My civ is the best and strongest. I don't feel like playing another 200 turns of just selecting the next thing to build to make it official.
I'd treat each era as its own mini-game. Goals change, some rules change, in part determined by the actions of players in the previous era.
I think these two are heading in my direction: The game doesn't change. Stagnation and tedium set in. Civ, and maybe other 4x games, are terrified of knocking the player off-balance. I don't know why, but they are. In a pseudo-historical game like Civ, for instance, the Renaissance and the Industrial Revolution should each take a baseball/cricket bat to the entire world order. I'm serious, throw the card-table over. Cats and dogs, living together. A fox in the henhouse. Smash your guitar, right there on the stage. I'm running out of tired metaphors, but you get the idea. Introduce a little pandemonium. Mayhem. Carnage. What do we get instead? Press Enter 200 times, is what. It's all so timid and tidy. And for what? It certainly doesn't mimic history, that's for sure, but it's also not a very compelling game. Like SupremacyKing, my games are fun while they last, but they're typically over before I even reach the Industrial Era, because I know that nothing will happen.
 
Let me repost what I wrote in the other thread:


For me, the key to making the late game interesting is addressing the fundamental problem above. If you want the player to stay engaged, then the game needs to offer a real challenge where the winner is still up for grabs even late game.

A couple solutions:
1) Add more geopolitical events that could potentially upset the power structure. For example, have real revolutions and rebellions that the player would have to fight or change their government/policy cards to placate. Have civil wars even that the player would have to fight. Have a neighboring civ face a rebellion or civil war that could spill over into your territory. Have a serious barbarian invasion that you would need to find other civs to ally with to help you resist it. etc... If the player were facing rebellions, revolutions, coups, civil wars etc either within or in neighboring civs that would really spice up the game.



I love your first idea! Perhaps making loyalty harder to come by, or harder to maintain late in the game, especially for larger Civs could result in more upheaval - rebellions or civil wars.

Also, i think if Diplomacy was enhanced, along with Espionage, the little guys could reel in the runaway leaders, and have a shot at victory despite being small or less advanced. We'll see how some of this changes with GS...
 
I love your first idea! Perhaps making loyalty harder to come by, or harder to maintain late in the game, especially for larger Civs could result in more upheaval - rebellions or civil wars.

Also, i think if Diplomacy was enhanced, along with Espionage, the little guys could reel in the runaway leaders, and have a shot at victory despite being small or less advanced. We'll see how some of this changes with GS...

Thanks.
 
The dilemma:

If the game is too static, then by the end game you have no way to catch runaways and win it, it becomes determined and boring.
but
If the game is too dynamic, then you can fail constistently and then quickly win at the end, not facing the consequences of your previous actions and not exactly developing your civilization over time but rather failing the entire time and then snatching the victory in the last moments.
It's anticlimatic, annoying, unpredictable and makes previous long development feel pointless.

Imagine if victory conditions in Civ were to defeat this one Final Boss of history in military battle, with any means, and any failed mediocre civ could achieve it with some stupid cheese, such as selling all its cities to buy giant death robot and killing it and winning everything.
Of course it's ridiculous scenario but I think it works as an analogy.
To some degree, victory in Civ game should result from good development of a civilization across ages. This feels satisfying and seems to be more grounded in reality. For Great Britain and its colonies (mainly US) to dominate the world in 20th century, they first had centuries upon centuries of slow cultural development which allowed them to make intellectual breakthroughs which enabled scientific revolution, industrial revolution, which led to English language becoming lingua franca of the entire planet Earth and its model of society being copied by everybody, which is the closest to Civ victory and real life culture ever got so far.

So that's the real problem. We wanna for last ages of the game to reflect our great buildup and progress of early eras, but also remain exciting, with the possibility of plot twists and unexpected victories by various underdogs.

Personally I have two ideas how this could be done.
1) World Wars, or Shogun II Total War brute force method "everybody allies and actively fights against potential hegemon"
In Shogun II Total War if you take control of a certain percentage of the map (IIRC it is 30%?) so in any other game by this point you'd have trivially easy walk to the victory, everybody else allies against you and declares war. Of course, in a game like Civ it would essentially turn all victories into military victories, so it could be something else rather than literal war - such as some sort of cold war, cultural embargo (against cultural victory), actual embargo (against economic victory), ruining your efforts at UN - I mean World Congress (diplomatic), or everybody else creating joint science organization in an attempt to catch to your levels of tech (scientific victory).
ADVANTAGES:
- It's relatively simple, straightforward solution on paper. You could maybe even make a special Emergency for it.
DISADVANTAGES:
- Could seem really anticlimatic
- Could be very annoying to deal with every game, tedious
- Could not work, due to the way technology works in civ games - if you runaway hard enough it doesn't matter if you fight 3 civs or one on the battlefield, cavalry won't beat your tanks.

2) Creating a specific mechanic which is a gateway to later eras, way easier to cross if you develop well in early eras, but if you somehow cross it while lagging behind before - then you can rapidly rise and become contestant for the victory.

I'd make this mechanic represent Industrialisation.

Think about it. When Industrialisation came in IRL, it completely "changed the game". Old empires which didn't adopt it quickly enough fell greatly behind (China), while those which managed to adopt it became very dangerous despite having no previous imperial history (Japan). In the same time, it didn't just happen randomly out of thin air - in order for this to happen Japan had to be very highly developed society fulfilling certain conditions (I vaguely recall now contents of a certain book I was once reading on this subject). Industrialisation is the gateway to the modern power - South Korea was nothing in the year 1960, Third World country, and is absolute beast nowadays. China generally failed horribly for 3/4 of century, and then it achieved insane growth in last 40 years and now is rising behemoth that could threaten to became victor in civ terms (by year 2050 :p )

Introduce a gameplay mechanic in the industrial era which significantly alters some gameplay systems, so post industrial civs really dominate over pre industrial civs. However, the process of adopting it is very painful, disproportionately more painful the bigger the empire is, and in fact it is the first way of making the late game more dynamic - empires which were easily winning so far may be simply so damaged when trying to cross it than others, seemingly weaker, catch up. Industrialising civ is also unstable and prone to invasions, civil unrest etc. However, if it is adopted succesfully, then it provides the more powerful boost the more backwards state adopted it.

Example:
English civ industrializes first. Then other nearby civs industrialise too (except Spain, which seemed guaranteed victor in renaissance era but now it falls from grace). Japan industrialises too, because it fulfills conditions despite being not very imperialistic and not doing anything really global before. China, the most powerful civ thus far, fails to industrialize and falls behind horribly. Industrialized civs fight for domination in the modern era. In the atomic/information era, China finally manages to industrialise and other powers maybe could stop it but failed - and now suddenly China returns from ashes to threaten seemingly guaranteed hegemon.

ADVANTAGES: Doesn't it sound dynamic?
DISADVANTAGES: This mechanic may be tricky to do, and when done improperly make runaway civs even more runaway, and late eras even more static and boring than before :p
 
While I can't be sure, I think that the late inclusion of rock bands might be a way to alter the balance to ones favor during the end game.

Lookit me, running mah piehole like I know what I'm talking about! :D

Of course my credentials on the matter are two guys who posts videos of play-thoughs of press release versions of GS that I've watched in the last few days... so obviously I'm an expert :smoke:

- if anyones feels that I should get whacked up-side the head for that last remark, you may feel vindicated in that my wife just whacked me up-side the head as she's reading this over my shoulder as I type.. which is really annoying by the way.. puts me right off my chain of thought.. god I'd give 20 bucks if *someone* made me a sandwich.. <displays stupid I-love-you grin>

holy crap, that worked, she's gone!

Rock bands.. right.

Let's say you know you can't win the science race, you know the others can't win the religion or domination because you have a solid defense and your home religion is strong, and there's a chance you may lose the culture race, now you can use all that saved up faith to purchase rock bands, and if they have the 'indie' rock promotion, they'll 50 loyalty off a neighboring city.

With this mechanic, not just the flipping of cities through the power of underground post modern thrash punk music, but also the sheer volume of culture/tourism from each rock band gig, can propel a lagging civilization to the finish line in short order.


I think the sandwich was a lie. :undecide:
 
I think the problem with late game has correctly been identified.

Let me repost what I wrote in the other thread:

It has been said many times but I think the #1 reason why players lose interest before the latter eras is because most games are already decided by the mid game. Why keep playing when you know you are going to win? In almost all my games, I know by the renaissance era, sometimes sooner, if I am going to win or not. This is due in large part to civs always growing and never falling. So if I have successfully conquered a few of my neighbors and have carved out a sizeable empire for myself by the end of the classical era, I know I am just going to get even bigger and my opponents will never be a threat to me. Once the initial expansion/conquest phase in the early game is finished, the rest of the game is just building the right stuff in your cities until you eventually win. This phase of the game can feel tedious because there is rarely any challenge. It's just hundreds of turns of selecting the next thing to build. This is why I often don't finish my games. Once I establish a nice empire, I feel like I accomplished the most important thing. My civ is the best and strongest. I don't feel like playing another 200 turns of just selecting the next thing to build to make it official.

Firaxis' solution in Gathering Storm appears to be to push the victories back so that players will be forced to play through to the new future era in order to win and also add new stuff (climate change, power, world congress, rock bands) to give the player interesting stuff to do in the late game. The approach seems to be "yeah, we know the single player game won't really be competitive anymore by the mid game but at least there will still be fun stuff to do". I think this will be fine for players who enjoy the "role-playing" parts of the game. Certainly, a lot of those new features do look interesting and fun. I will probably play a couple times to the future era, to see what the new features are like. For the more competitive players, I am not sure it will work. It does not seem to address the main issue which is that if I already know I am going to win by the renaissance/early industrial era, why would I keep playing just because you gave me more buttons to push? I am concerned that veteran players will still quit mid game because they won't really care about the cool features. For them, once the game is in the bag, they won't care about continuing the game.

For me, the key to making the late game interesting is addressing the fundamental problem above. If you want the player to stay engaged, then the game needs to offer a real challenge where the winner is still up for grabs even late game.

A couple solutions:
1) Add more geopolitical events that could potentially upset the power structure. For example, have real revolutions and rebellions that the player would have to fight or change their government/policy cards to placate. Have civil wars even that the player would have to fight. Have a neighboring civ face a rebellion or civil war that could spill over into your territory. Have a serious barbarian invasion that you would need to find other civs to ally with to help you resist it. etc... If the player were facing rebellions, revolutions, coups, civil wars etc either within or in neighboring civs that would really spice up the game.
2) Change how victories work. Get rid of the individual victories and replace them with one single "score" type victory that only triggers at the very end. Players could still pursue culture, science or domination to win victory points. Also, victory points would ramp up with eras. This would help players catch up since they could earn more points in the late game. By allocating more victory points in the late game eras, it would shift the focus to the late game. Games would be decided in the late game since that is where the most victory points could be earned. This would prevent the game from being won in the middle.
3) This might be radical but maybe when you research nationalism, your civ would fundamentally change. You would lose some outer cities and they would become independent nations, your remaining cities would also change. Your civ name would change. For example, if you are playing as the roman civ, your civ name would change to the Italian civ. And you would get brand new civ abilities and unique units etc... This could help the game feel new and fresh as it would be like starting a new game with a new civ except with the map already settled with nation/civs.

SupremacyKing2's suggestion to re-define victory could really help. The aim of a Civ game is to lead your civ and stand the test of time, so it would totally make sense to count all victory points that your civ has earned througout the whole history while your civ has to survive until the end of turns. I don't know if everybody would like this new concept because it prevents certain playstyles that are centered around playing as efficient as possible an win as early as possible. But one could solve this problem by letting the player chose in the game settings if he wants to go for classical victory types or for one overall victory.

I think – obiously like others here – loyality could be the key feature that can provide a mechanism that prevents the late game from becoming boring. I suggested some helpful changes to the loyality system and their effects earlier in that thread and I'm glad that others might think the same way.
The problem here might be that players could feel bad about losing parts of their empire due to loyality issues and the remaining part of your civ seems less competitive. But I think this problem is not really an issue if the game is centered around this new victory concept suggested above. Even when nationalism causes your empire to break in smaller countries, you still have your glorious history that counts towards your overall score and there ist still enough time to catch up in later eras which makes them really matter.
 
I think the problem with late game has correctly been identified.

SupremacyKing2's suggestion to re-define victory could really help. The aim of a Civ game is to lead your civ and stand the test of time, so it would totally make sense to count all victory points that your civ has earned througout the whole history while your civ has to survive until the end of turns. I don't know if everybody would like this new concept because it prevents certain playstyles that are centered around playing as efficient as possible an win as early as possible. But one could solve this problem by letting the player chose in the game settings if he wants to go for classical victory types or for one overall victory.

I think – obiously like others here – loyality could be the key feature that can provide a mechanism that prevents the late game from becoming boring. I suggested some helpful changes to the loyality system and their effects earlier in that thread and I'm glad that others might think the same way.
The problem here might be that players could feel bad about losing parts of their empire due to loyality issues and the remaining part of your civ seems less competitive. But I think this problem is not really an issue if the game is centered around this new victory concept suggested above. Even when nationalism causes your empire to break in smaller countries, you still have your glorious history that counts towards your overall score and there ist still enough time to catch up in later eras which makes them really matter.

Thanks. Yes, your victory points that you earned before your civ breaks up would still count towards your final victory score. In addition to that, I would also recommend giving your remaining cities some type of "nationalism" bonus to offset the loss of cities. You could even let the player pick their "nationalism" bonus like they pick a religious belief now. The new bonus would represent your civ gaining a new sense of nationalism about itself. This bonus would serve to offset the loss of cities by giving you some type of strength or ability that you could use to build a stronger civ.
 
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