What I wonder about that document is the conclusion from seeing the Taj Mahal that the Mughals are in. Hopefully, they are. But not every wonder needs the associated culture that build it, right? Otherwise, the Todai-ji would make a medieval Japan iteration necessary.
Humankind Game by Amplitude
- Thread starter AtlantisAuthor
- Start date
Toudai-ji was built earlier, sure, but the wonder takes on the design of a full reconstruction made during the Early Modern period from a European perspective.
It's kind of like St. Basil's cathedral which is an old structure but which got its modern and well recognised shape only during Imperial Russia.
It's kind of like St. Basil's cathedral which is an old structure but which got its modern and well recognised shape only during Imperial Russia.
You‘re right. But the line of thinking Taj Mahal means Mughals are in still seems too hypothetical for me.
CivLuvah
Deity
Imgur album updated to include the Byzantines
https://imgur.com/a/4cPjGSY
Also I honestly did not see this coming - that we'll start immediately with the Medieval Era I mean.
Also did not see coming: the Byzantines as merchants. Any reason for this trait to be apt for the Byzantine Empire historically? I always saw them as a "religious" civ.
https://imgur.com/a/4cPjGSY
Also I honestly did not see this coming - that we'll start immediately with the Medieval Era I mean.
Also did not see coming: the Byzantines as merchants. Any reason for this trait to be apt for the Byzantine Empire historically? I always saw them as a "religious" civ.
As someone else mentioned in the Byzantine thread, the Byzantine luxury trade was the lifeblood of Europe, and the Byzantines had a booming economy for much of their existence. There's a reason that Byzantium is a byword for sophistication and decadence, much like Babylon. It's somewhat unexpected--much like making the Celts Agrarian instead of Builders--but not unfitting.
FinalDoomsday
Prince
Byzantine's sat at the crossroads of Europe getting that sweet silk road trade as well as a fair share of the mediterranian's. They also solved a fair few problems by throwing money at them placating aggressive neighbours or causing strife in their land through bribes and the funding of opposition.
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
Byzantine military manuals even had lists of "which enemies are easiest to bribe" which implies that they would always have enough Gold or other goodies to bribe Somebody.
Among other things, Byzantium planted and cultivated 'exotic' trade goods originally from India and the Far East, like Indigo and Silk (famously smuggling the silk worms out of China in one of the earliest examples of 'industrial espionage' in history!), and thus converting Crossroads traffic into Origin Traffic for themselves with even greater profits.
It hasn't been mentioned, but I hope along with whatever Bonuses are Normal for Merchant/Mercantile Factions, Byzantium has some extra ability to leverage her Gold for diplomatic or military purposes, which would be perfectly Emblematic for them.
God of Kings
Ruler of all heads of state
Don't forget that the word "byzantine" also means overly complex and intricate.
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
As much as we gripe about "Bureaucracy" and "Red Tape" today, bureaucracy was invented in Mesopotamia at about the same time as Hammurabi's Law Code, and Ptolemaic Egypt has left us thousands of papyrus documents that are simply bureaucratic files in multiple copies - which anybody who wanted anything done by the government had to hand-carry themselves from one clerically-moribund office to the next. "Byzantine" was less a comment on the intricacies of the bureaucratic process in Byzantium than it was the result of the massive frustration brought on by the wedding of an elaborate bureaucracy to the Roman patronage system which meant that getting anything done required both filling out all the paperwork or papyrus-work properly and then also knowing which bureaucrat was 'connected' to the right people in the current regime and so could actually get anything done.
And if the regime changed, even so slightly as by appointing a new bureaucrat somewhere within it, you might have to start all over finding the right connections.
I suppose the Byzantine Bureaucrat could be an Emblematic Unit, but dealing with one, even in a game system, might be far too much like dealing with Real Life, which I, at least, play the game to Avoid!
I am wondering what else focus could Byzantium fit on HK, as this glorious civ seems weirdly hard to find it "obvious" focus.
There is no religious or defensive focus
Expansionist feels really wrong for a civ which is famously defensive for most of its history (it even feels wrong for Justinian era, as it wasn't conquest of foreign lands as much as REconquest of rightful Roman clay)
Scientific... Byzantium had scientists and scientific achievements and academias decent enough to cause eye-rolling screeching "first university! first university!" but it wasn't THAT innovative, especially when compares with nearby Islamic empires or high/late medieval Europe.
Builder feels weird because while they had legendarny Haghia Sophia and fortifications and architectural style, they didn't leave incredibly numerous architectural legacy (now I am wondering, was Byzantine architecture internationally demolished in Turkish lands in history?)
Agrarian Byzantium would feel like a blasphemy to me lol
So the only alternatives which could rival Merchant focus for Byzantium are maybe militarist and aestethe. Militarist still does feel strange for a civilization which was so defensive and so highly advanced in many other aspects, it just feels weird for Byz to share focus with Huns or (inevitably) Mongols.
So that would leave us with aestethe. That makes sense to me, but I still prefer devs choice to go with merchant - this focus sells the size, prosperity and glory of Second Rome better, imo.
There is no religious or defensive focus
Expansionist feels really wrong for a civ which is famously defensive for most of its history (it even feels wrong for Justinian era, as it wasn't conquest of foreign lands as much as REconquest of rightful Roman clay)
Scientific... Byzantium had scientists and scientific achievements and academias decent enough to cause eye-rolling screeching "first university! first university!" but it wasn't THAT innovative, especially when compares with nearby Islamic empires or high/late medieval Europe.
Builder feels weird because while they had legendarny Haghia Sophia and fortifications and architectural style, they didn't leave incredibly numerous architectural legacy (now I am wondering, was Byzantine architecture internationally demolished in Turkish lands in history?)
Agrarian Byzantium would feel like a blasphemy to me lol
So the only alternatives which could rival Merchant focus for Byzantium are maybe militarist and aestethe. Militarist still does feel strange for a civilization which was so defensive and so highly advanced in many other aspects, it just feels weird for Byz to share focus with Huns or (inevitably) Mongols.
So that would leave us with aestethe. That makes sense to me, but I still prefer devs choice to go with merchant - this focus sells the size, prosperity and glory of Second Rome better, imo.
The Greeks demolished some Byzantine structures as a part of their nationalist movement (most famously blowing up anything left of the Byzantine acropolis in Athens), but I'm not aware of the Turkish doing anything of the sort.
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
In fact, a great deal of 'Islamic' architecture was in fact copied from Byzantium: the arches and domes so characteristic of mosques from Cordoba to Isfahan and beyond were all composed of 'Byzantine' architectural elements. In the respect of monumental/religious architecture, at least, Byzantium might be a 'Builder Faction' once removed!
I know. I decided to omit that because a part of this was simple cultural diffusion (not every mosque with a big dome is a rebuilt orthodox church) and the Islamic states merged these with elements from Persia so when one imagines a mosque, the things that jump out at them are more than likely not the elements tracing their lineage back to Byzantium.
TheSpaceCowboy
The Gangster of Love
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2013
- Messages
- 635
Does anyone know if the game will feature minor factions, a la Amplitude's Endless Legend? It seems a great way to include tons of additional civilizations beyond even the main sixty, especially tribes which wouldn't find inclusion even in expansion packs or as downloadable content.
CivLuvah
Deity
The Facebook page has confirmed they're in.
Look through the official comments under the Byzantine reveal.
Endless Legend model of minor factions would be brilliant for historical setting even without significant modifications
Add to it some distinction between city states, tribes and nomads, and you may end with something truly great
Add to it some distinction between city states, tribes and nomads, and you may end with something truly great
conorbebe
King
I wonder what the deciding factors are when it comes to designating whether a culture or group of people will be made playable or relegated to a minor faction. Will they be the equivalent of City-states in Civilization, focused around rogue or independent cities and towns? Or will they be taken from the less significant nomadic and tribal cultures of the ancient world?
And furthermore, perhaps most curiously, will these minor factions evolve in a similar way to the player's civilisation? Will all minor factions be taken from the Ancient Era? Or will more pop up over time as the game progresses into later eras?
And furthermore, perhaps most curiously, will these minor factions evolve in a similar way to the player's civilisation? Will all minor factions be taken from the Ancient Era? Or will more pop up over time as the game progresses into later eras?
FinalDoomsday
Prince
I like the idea of minor factions reflecting the player cultures in changing over the eras, having minor factions dissapear and new ones pop up sounds like a pretty fun way to keep the map interesting.
