[R&F] I can't beat Human Mongolia

[Bananapie]

Hey all!

I love Civ and I have been really lucky to get my best friend to like it too. Only problem is he found Mongolia, and hasn't lost a domination game yet against me.

I've tried teching up fast with Korea, I've tried Impi spamming, I've tried Nubian archer rushing (most effective), I've tried Alexandar, and at the suggestion of another member here Scythia (that was a FAIL).

Even when I pick an Island civ and build up a good navy he conquers the other computers with ease and has map control fairly quickly. The Keshigs are just insanely powerful and I can't find anything that counters them--even pike and shot is ineffective especially if you consider by the time you rush to it he has fully upgraded Keshigs from his rampaging conquest.

Even denying him trading I still can't beat him or counter Keshigs.

What do I do that isn't a crap shoot of luck--is there a solid strategy or counter to Mongolia for two evenly matched players?

Thanks!!!!

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

The answer is Georgia! Just kidding. Yeah the Mongols are very strong - even the AI can do some damage with them. Shaka is a probably a good bet but you'd have to survive to corps which might be difficult. They are probably vulnerable to super early rushes with Sumeria and Aztecs and Japan might be an interesting choice since you can rush to a great general and maybe use that coastal combat bonus or mix in an early religion with defender of the faith. America would probably be a decent choice for an early rush since you get the +5 combat bonus.

 

[Bananapie]

I think its really stupid too they get +12 attack just for initiating a trade route...they should have to complete it before getting the bonus...having 60 attack on horsemen is just nuts.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I would go with Sumeria and kill him long before he gets Keshigs!

 

[Diganand]

I play Mongolia a lot, but exclusively SP. Genghis is really strong. I find it funny that somebody recommended Tomyris since he basically counters her.

Keep in mind that your friend could use spies and the printing technology on you to get diplomatic visibility, so make sure to spy on him (Intelligence Agency is good for this) and rush printing as early as possible. There is also a rarely-used modern era Great Merchant who will increase your diplomatic visibility over all other civs, she can help you keep the diplomatic advantage so don't tell your friend about her.

Maybe anti-cav units aren't your best strategy. I personally find they're too expensive to be useful. You friend sounds like a much more agressive player, so you should probably try to be more aggressive against the computer controlled civs and take as much territory as him on the map.

Genghis isn't the best civ at early war because he needs horses. Sumerian War-Carts have 30 combat strength, low production cost, and aren't vulnerable to spearmen, and others recommended him. Alexander is also good. His hetairoi are cavalry units, but they don't need horses and with a Great-General they get +11 Combat Strength, so you can definitely beat Genghis if you meet him in the ancient/classical era. Suprise war him early and he should have serious amenity problems at home by the end of the medieval era.

Keshigs are super strong, and there are no other ranged cavalry units in the game, so their range and movement is really problematic. I can't think of anything to beat them except a huge number of Knights. If all else fails, I'd try a strategy with Frederick and settle as many cities as possible, even without any water. A one pop city can support and Hansa and Commercial Hub which is a ridiculous amount of production. Maybe then you can out produce your enemy.

Good luck!

 

[Dwyer99]

I would throw my hat in with either Sumeria or Nubia, for all the obvious reasons. Pump those specials out fast and set the world on fire to get a big lead early on or if you're lucky and you start close to Genghis, just take him out before his cavalry ever come into play.

If you're looking to counter him at his own era and later, I would say that Shaka is your man. Keep in mind he gets corps at Mercenaries, all of his corps and armies are ridiculously strong, and his Impi are dirt cheap (both significantly cheaper to build/buy and also only have 1 maintenance whereas a Keshig has 3, which can add up quickly meaning a MUCH bigger pool of cash to throw around). It helps as well that Ikandas are significantly cheaper than normal encampments and allow the production/purchase of corps/armies which are also quicker/cheaper to build/buy. This translates to Shaka being able to crank out more units and very likely corps/armies directly without necessarily having to throw in all of the encampment upgrades. Once Shaka gets his snowball going, it's very difficult to stop.

Now with the above having been said, Genghis is definitely still not a push over. Perhaps one of the biggest issues dealing with a human Genghis is that the human will know to deny every chance for diplomatic visibility you can get whereas the AI Genghis will gleefully accept your delegation, open borders, etc. assuming you have a high enough rep with him.

 

[Victoria]

I played my son the other day. Gorgo vs Peri. Mongols vs Sumerians or some other match up is just silly IMO.
Another option is play sides without Uber power. Cleo vs Cathy?

Nubia to me seems best purely because you get double shot Xbows, with Logistics you are not such easy pickings.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Use Aztec/Sumeria

Or play on a map where you're separated by ocean

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

Yeah the Aztecs counter everyone. You can match the Mongol combat boost with your own luxury boost plus you'll be ahead in all other areas of the game with all the extra builders and districts. The real question is who can counter the Aztecs?

 

[Mr. Shadows]

It's well and good to get advice on how to counter The Mongols' advantages, but I'd like to point out that you aren't being defeated by Genghis, you're being defeated by your friend. The best thing you can do is watch how he plays so you can see why his game is stronger. Are you expanding aggressively enough? Why is he and not you taking out the ai? You don't need any fancy units for that. Are you preparing for his attack? You need to look for and occupy choke-points if you aren't going to be the aggressor. You have to understand how fortifying, terrain, flanking and support bonuses stack up. Know which tiles archers can and can't fire over. Have a navy to stop embarked units. Better yet do all that and tee-off on him while you do. That means getting better at chopping/harvesting so that you have the materiel to do so. Genghis is strong but there's no reason he can't be stopped with any number of civs.

 

[Bananapie]

It's well and good to get advice on how to counter The Mongols' advantages, but I'd like to point out that you aren't being defeated by Genghis, you're being defeated by your friend. The best thing you can do is watch how he plays so you can see why his game is stronger. Are you expanding aggressively enough? Why is he and not you taking out the ai? You don't need any fancy units for that. Are you preparing for his attack? You need to look for and occupy choke-points if you aren't going to be the aggressor. You have to understand how fortifying, terrain, flanking and support bonuses stack up. Know which tiles archers can and can't fire over. Have a navy to stop embarked units. Better yet do all that and tee-off on him while you do. That means getting better at chopping/harvesting so that you have the materiel to do so. Genghis is strong but there's no reason he can't be stopped with any number of civs.

I really appreciate this advice, but I have over 1200 hours in Civ according to Steam and my friend is fairly new. He's good, but I understand more of the game. I'm not saying I am a master, but I do understand the basics. We have been playing strategy games for over twenty years so we are evenly matched in tactics.

I think the advice to rush and kill him before he gets Horsemen is a fine strat, but that is a UNIVERSAL strategy that isn't really specific to the Mongols...if you could rush and kill a player before he gets horses you should always do it.

The issue is that the Mongols horsemen can have over 60 (I've seen it hit 65) attack along with exceptional mobility. Denying horses is very hard due to the map bias even when you are playing in a duel map. I do rush to conquer other civs and expand as fast as possible, but he can do that too, and when you are playing a multiplayer game real people know when to hit you at your weakest.

There is nothing that can match Mongol horsemen to my knowledge, which is why I am posting here. Their incredible mobility, insane attack, and ability to deny calvary due to conversion makes it incredibly difficult to survive. And this is before Keshigs...

I haven't played the Montezuma angle, so I will give that a shot--but what I am hearing so far is there isn't really a counter to Mongols and this civ is just not meant for Multi.

Thanks guys

 

[Diganand]

I really appreciate this advice, but I have over 1200 hours in Civ according to Steam and my friend is fairly new. He's good, but I understand more of the game. I'm not saying I am a master, but I do understand the basics. We have been playing strategy games for over twenty years so we are evenly matched in tactics.

I think the advice to rush and kill him before he gets Horsemen is a fine strat, but that is a UNIVERSAL strategy that isn't really specific to the Mongols...if you could rush and kill a player before he gets horses you should always do it.

The issue is that the Mongols horsemen can have over 60 (I've seen it hit 65) attack along with exceptional mobility. Denying horses is very hard due to the map bias even when you are playing in a duel map. I do rush to conquer other civs and expand as fast as possible, but he can do that too, and when you are playing a multiplayer game real people know when to hit you at your weakest.

There is nothing that can match Mongol horsemen to my knowledge, which is why I am posting here. Their incredible mobility, insane attack, and ability to deny calvary due to conversion makes it incredibly difficult to survive. And this is before Keshigs...

I haven't played the Montezuma angle, so I will give that a shot--but what I am hearing so far is there isn't really a counter to Mongols and this civ is just not meant for Multi.

Thanks guys

Good luck trying Monty.

I have a question for you. When you refer to the Mongolian Horsemen with 60+ Combat Strength, is this versus AI or versus you?

As you probably know, Mongol units get +6/12/18/24 Combat Strength for each level of diplomatic visibility they have over somebody. When you play with your friend does he usually have this advantage over you?

 

[Bananapie]

Good luck trying Monty.

I have a question for you. When you refer to the Mongolian Horsemen with 60+ Combat Strength, is this versus AI or versus you?

As you probably know, Mongol units get +6/12/18/24 Combat Strength for each level of diplomatic visibility they have over somebody. When you play with your friend does he usually have this advantage over you?

Thanks for jumping in!

It's 60ish versus me. It can be higher when all the terrain or flanking bonuses add up. It could be higher still but he usually only has 12 from diplomatic visibility by sending a trade route--which doesn't need to be finished just initiated.

Is the only viable strategy to scout him first and immediately declare war? That's what I tried with Alexander to avoid war weariness even though I wasn't ready to attack. He still had some visibility on me though and we aren't sure how.

 

[Dwyer99]

Something to consider may be map type (don't recall seeing too much yet regarding this here). I would strongly consider veering away from Pangaea and Fractal maps in particular as they cater to cavalry spam far too much for any civ. Maybe try out something with more islands and introduce naval warfare as a significant component, especially now that land unit strength versus naval units has been nerfed. In this way you could deny him the early expansion due to steamrolling other civs and force him to adapt his play style. Or perhaps teach him to equally fear Norway on an island map...

 

[Diganand]

Thanks for jumping in!

It's 60ish versus me. It can be higher when all the terrain or flanking bonuses add up. It could be higher still but he usually only has 12 from diplomatic visibility by sending a trade route--which doesn't need to be finished just initiated.

Is the only viable strategy to scout him first and immediately declare war? That's what I tried with Alexander to avoid war weariness even though I wasn't ready to attack. He still had some visibility on me though and we aren't sure how.

You should absolutely declare war first every time, otherwise he'll just send a trade route and get +6 CS forever against you. He doesn't get any bonuses with early war unlike the other civs that have been suggested here (Sumeria, Aztec, etc.), so don't be afraid to declare war as soon as possible. Mongolia only has one ability that can increase diplomatic visibility that other civs do not (Ortoo), and it only increases visibility by one level. He will get a single level from sending a trader, and if you manage to deny trade, he has limited options (printing and spies basically, these are Med/Ren techs). If your friend has two levels of diplomatic visibility, he is definitely using spies (listening post mission), or unlocking printing (the eureka for this is very easy to get) before you.

Strategy-wise, denying him trading, sending spies to one of his cities (the intelligence agency in the Government Plaza will get you one, so spies can come quickly after your second-tier government), and printing are your priority. I know I put a lot of emphasis on diplomatic visibility, but it's the biggest source of his Combat Strength you can counter. The Mongol Horde bonus (+3 CS) and Great Generals are another matter.

One civ that might work is Trajan. Legions have 40 Combat Strength. With Oligarchy stacking (Oligarchy government and Oligarchic Legacy Wildcard) this jumps to 48, and with a Great General it jumps to 53, so Legions can probably contest his early forces even if they have a level of diplomatic visibility over you. Also roman forts provide +10 Combat Strength over this which is a ridiculous boost when you need to be defensive.

I always thought Keshigs were super squishy, but your friend is probably better at using them than me.

Catherine is an obvious troll pick since you start with an extra level of diplomatic visibility so even if Genghis sends a trade route he only gains +3. Not sure how strong she is at domination. Either way, there are many good suggestions here, keep us updated!

 

[Casualty of war]

Having Mongolia as an opponent is one of the few times when building Forts is a good idea. Overlapping fields of fire with Encampments and Walled cities on the approach also does the trick. Even better is paying whatever it takes to get them into a Joint War with someone else, obviously not an option in multiplayer.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

I really appreciate this advice, but I have over 1200 hours in Civ according to Steam and my friend is fairly new. He's good, but I understand more of the game.

If this were true he wouldn't be able to stone-wall you with The Mongols.

 

[Jarms48]

Have you tried playing Arabia? Go religion, grab Crusade or Defenders of the Faith, then use Mamluk’s to counter his Keshig. Crusade isn’t as good, but can be useful.

• Crusade is great when you manage to actually get onto the offensive, take some missionaries with you and convert his cities while you siege. If he takes his city back but doesn’t convert his city, then you’re already +10 combat strength.

• You can also use Defenders of the Faith somewhat offensively as well. Such as forward settling, converting city-states, converting AI allies to your religion. Also converting his cities as you capture them would give you the +10 combat strength.

Even Russia could work with this, though I suggest playing defensively with Crossbows, and maybe Knights, until you get Cossack's.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

Have you tried playing Arabia? Go religion, grab Crusade and Defenders of the Faith, then use Mamluk’s to counter his Keshia. Crusade isn’t as important, but can be useful.

• Crusade is great when you manage to actually get onto the offensive, take some missionaries with you and convert his cities while you siege. If he takes his city back but doesn’t convert his city, then you’re already +10 combat strength.

• You can also use Defenders of the Faith somewhat offensively as well. Such as forward settling, converting city-states, converting AI allies to your religion.

Even playing as Russia could work with this, though I suggest playing defensively with Crossbows, and maybe Knights, until you get Cossack's.

Personally I was thinking Rome would be a good choice. The early culture and hammers get them a lot of nice things and make expanding a breeze. Earlier Agoge, earlier +50% settlers, earlier govt., and earlier flanking/support bonuses. It will even (eventually) get you faster knights and faster corps. You can use those extra hammers to pump out settlers and a load of warriors that upgrade to legions (if you don't have iron, get it!) while he has to hard-build his horsemen. This makes it easy to roll the ai and (if positioning allows) press him while you're at it. Legions can't be captured and a well placed (and defended) fort or two can stop a carpet of doom cold. They can also (terrain permitting) bottle him in so that he can't expand. If you're expanding hard in the other direction you should be able to snow-ball past him.

 

[Jarms48]

Personally I was thinking Rome would be a good choice. The early culture and hammers get them a lot of nice things and make expanding a breeze. Earlier Agoge, earlier +50% settlers, earlier govt., and earlier flanking/support bonuses. It will even (eventually) get you faster knights and faster corps. You can use those extra hammers to pump out settlers and a load of warriors that upgrade to legions (if you don't have iron, get it!) while he has to hard-build his horsemen. This makes it easy to roll the ai and (if positioning allows) press him while you're at it. Legions can't be captured and a well placed (and defended) fort or two can stop a carpet of doom cold. They can also (terrain permitting) bottle him in so that he can't expand. If you're expanding hard in the other direction you should be able to snow-ball past him.

From my experience with online play I wouldn't focus too much on Legion, whilst powerful, they're still infantry. Meaning they'll get out-positioned by cavalry, and outranged by archers. Keshig are both making a deadly combination. You would have a small window where Legion shine, though stirrups aren't a hard tech to get, the biggest delay (as you pointed out) would be hard building them. Though you would also have to watch out for Mongolian horsemen, which have 38 strength off the bat thanks to their leader ability, potentially 5 movement thanks to Ordu, and potentially even more combat strength thanks to their Civ ability.

Personally, I think the best UU (and the one's to build a strategy around) are the one's down the Archer, Light Cav, and Heavy Cav lines. Everything else is either useless, or situationally okay.