I hate natural wonders

[TheMeInTeam]

I like them, even the more extreme ones. Better to have it matter somewhat where you settle as opposed to out-of-the-box civ where every site site was basically the same.

You must mean "better to have it matter excessively much where you spawn".

Natural wonders in their current form are a garbage joke mechanic that mildly reminds me of the trash that is random events.

And guess what? Firaxis added the most broken ones AFTER release, rather than making MP playable..................................................................................

I'd keep a civ V fail count in my signature here but...I'm pretty sure I'd get tagged for having too large a signature .

 

[The_J]

, but the bigger problem is that the character limit of 30 000 probably also counts for signatures .

 

[masonryan]

Following this logic you will gladly accept any nonsensical thing they put into the game and enjoy it because "It's just a game!!!"

I think you are part of civ5's target audience.

agreed.

 

[esemjay]

Following this logic you will gladly accept any nonsensical thing they put into the game and enjoy it because "It's just a game!!!"

I think you are part of civ5's target audience.

I prefer a little bit of a middle-road between realistic and it's a game. I think that changes that should have been made with the "Natural Wonders" include:

1. Get rid of Fictional Wonders. The most unbelievable "constructed" wonder in the game is "The Hanging Gardens." However, there is documentation (both classical and archaeological) of it's existence. You would be hard-pressed to find a respectable source that claims "The Fountain of Youth" and "El Dorado" to exist, let alone provide actual proof as to it's existence. The fictional natural wonders fall right alongside the "Giant Death Robot," and didn't have a place in "Vanilla" Civ.
   
2. Balance Natural Wonders. Why is it that one national wonder provides +2 Science, while another provides +10 gold, and yet another provides around +1 gold and +1 hammer? The best adjective I can think of to describe the bonuses of these wonders is "Arbitrary." They are equally rare, why are they not even close to being equally beneficial? Especially with the minimal returns you get for improving tiles; a natural wonder should be slightly better than a worked tile of comparable traits.
   
3. Give The Player an Option. Why is it that you cannot just disable this feature? It's unbalanced, some are unrealistic, and it fills a niche role at best. It feels like one of those ideas that came out in the final stages, where someone said "You know what'd be cool?" and they stitched it in. Cerro de Potosi? Overpowered, AND hideous. Seriously. It looks like a bunch of flies all over a pile of poop. Or like a mountain-shaped chocolate-chip-cookie. I would want to disable this one, just for the aesthetics.

 

[Yzman]

I am baffled how these wonders ruin the game for anyone. Yes even after reading the posts. How one can say that they can extend their disbelief on everything but then a fountain of youth is in and they are like OMG NO.

We better take out Alpha Centauri, Nuclear Fission, Particle Physics and other technologies that destroy immersion. Hell, in Civ 4 we had Gilgamesh, he wasn't even a real leader!

Gandhi leads the Indian people.
Elephant units don't require ivory to be built.
Camel units DO require horses.
Marble helps build any wonder, including those made of metal.
Units embark automatically.
A single unit represents a big squadron.
SDI defense was in Civ 4, never had a problem.
Nuking my cities makes them happier.

And these are the things that are fine but 2 wonders ruin your immersion?

 

[lschnarch]

Gandhi leads the Indian people.
Elephant units don't require ivory to be built.
Camel units DO require horses.
Marble helps build any wonder, including those made of metal.
Units embark automatically.
A single unit represents a big squadron.
SDI defense was in Civ 4, never had a problem.
Nuking my cities makes them happier.

And these are the things that are fine but 2 wonders ruin your immersion?

Because they have screwed up 90% of the game this is a valid argument to implement more of such crap?

 

[joyous_gard]

I am baffled how these wonders ruin the game for anyone. Yes even after reading the posts. How one can say that they can extend their disbelief on everything but then a fountain of youth is in and they are like OMG NO.

We better take out Alpha Centauri, Nuclear Fission, Particle Physics and other technologies that destroy immersion. Hell, in Civ 4 we had Gilgamesh, he wasn't even a real leader!

Gandhi leads the Indian people.
Elephant units don't require ivory to be built.
Camel units DO require horses.
Marble helps build any wonder, including those made of metal.
Units embark automatically.
A single unit represents a big squadron.
SDI defense was in Civ 4, never had a problem.
Nuking my cities makes them happier.

And these are the things that are fine but 2 wonders ruin your immersion?

Future techs? Some of that stuff bugs me too but this is a Natural Wonders thread so....

My biggest problem with it is that it is intentionally done by educated people. They weren't necessary. WHy can't they just think for a second "These aren't natural wonders. A natural wonder is something that the Earth created naturally." Instead they are like 6 year olds. I don't know if there is precedent for this kind of ignorance in Civ games. The promotion of ignorance in an "extras" portion of the game. They could use natural wonders for natural wonders and then that way maybe we learn a little something. Not this team. This is the "And he was a history major" team. They just do whatever. They don't do whatever is necessary. Just "whatever." It wasn't necessary to add new wonders after reworking all the original ones. Somehow it became necessary to add two new non natural wonders to the natural wonder list? OP ones besides. Maybe they thought it would boost DLC sales in some convoluted way. How do decisions get made there?

Anyway, I have been thinking about my "Allied City State Spawns a Merlin Settler." This is just a little extra feature that no one needs to get worked up about. Sometimes you will get it, sometimes the AI will so it's completely fair. Anyway, Merlin will spawn like a great person. Then you will have to control and settle him per the normal rules, but when he is settled, the only name for the city is "Magic City," and when it is settled you hear this "Sim Sala Bim." The city defense is magic orbs (range 6) and the city can't be captured anyway.

Now my Merlin idea is just some nonsense that the game is begging for. You don't realize it yet, because it hasn't been added, but the game really needs this kind of fun stuff. Withouth this fun, completely fair stuff we wouldn't play Civ games. Civ is recognized for its off the wall shenanigans and Merlin certainly is in the spirit of off the wall shenanigans.

 

[JohnnyW]

I prefer a little bit of a middle-road between realistic and it's a game. I think that changes that should have been made with the "Natural Wonders" include:

1. Get rid of Fictional Wonders. The most unbelievable "constructed" wonder in the game is "The Hanging Gardens." However, there is documentation (both classical and archaeological) of it's existence. You would be hard-pressed to find a respectable source that claims "The Fountain of Youth" and "El Dorado" to exist, let alone provide actual proof as to it's existence. The fictional natural wonders fall right alongside the "Giant Death Robot," and didn't have a place in "Vanilla" Civ.
   
2. Balance Natural Wonders. Why is it that one national wonder provides +2 Science, while another provides +10 gold, and yet another provides around +1 gold and +1 hammer? The best adjective I can think of to describe the bonuses of these wonders is "Arbitrary." They are equally rare, why are they not even close to being equally beneficial? Especially with the minimal returns you get for improving tiles; a natural wonder should be slightly better than a worked tile of comparable traits.
   
3. Give The Player an Option. Why is it that you cannot just disable this feature? It's unbalanced, some are unrealistic, and it fills a niche role at best. It feels like one of those ideas that came out in the final stages, where someone said "You know what'd be cool?" and they stitched it in. Cerro de Potosi? Overpowered, AND hideous. Seriously. It looks like a bunch of flies all over a pile of poop. Or like a mountain-shaped chocolate-chip-cookie. I would want to disable this one, just for the aesthetics.

I completely agree with this post.

I am baffled how these wonders ruin the game for anyone. Yes even after reading the posts. How one can say that they can extend their disbelief on everything but then a fountain of youth is in and they are like OMG NO.

We better take out Alpha Centauri, Nuclear Fission, Particle Physics and other technologies that destroy immersion. Hell, in Civ 4 we had Gilgamesh, he wasn't even a real leader!

Gandhi leads the Indian people.
Elephant units don't require ivory to be built.
Camel units DO require horses.
Marble helps build any wonder, including those made of metal.
Units embark automatically.
A single unit represents a big squadron.
SDI defense was in Civ 4, never had a problem.
Nuking my cities makes them happier.

And these are the things that are fine but 2 wonders ruin your immersion?

Actually, a lot of people are unhappy with many of the things you listed. Have you not been reading this civ5 forums for the last few months?

 

[Yzman]

I completely agree with this post.



Actually, a lot of people are unhappy with many of the things you listed. Have you not been reading this civ5 forums for the last few months?

Of course I have, but rarely do any of those points, "ruin the immersion" for people.

And to the other poster, making up a ridiculous wonder does not prove your argument at all. It just boils down to a slippery slope argument. It is the same as arguing for gay marriage and then saying "What next!? Are we gonna let people marry animals??"

I have no problem with people thinking that they are overpowered, I can see why some think that. To say they ruin the immersion in this game is kinda ridiculous though. That was my only point.

 

[JohnnyW]

Of course I have, but rarely do any of those points, "ruin the immersion" for people.

I believe you can only speak for yourself on the issue. They lower immersion for me certainly.

And to the other poster, making up a ridiculous wonder does not prove your argument at all. It just boils down to a slippery slope argument. It is the same as arguing for gay marriage and then saying "What next!? Are we gonna let people marry animals??"

It's not anything of the sort. In one context you are comparing human beings to animals simply because of their sexual preferences. In the other context we are talking about purely fictional entities being labelled as "natural wonders" in a video game. Trying to compare the two is intellectually inappropriate as one issue deals simply with logical definitions of the words used to describe something ("natural wonders") and the other is a far more complicated social discussion involving deep emotions and beliefs on both sides.

I have no problem with people thinking that they are overpowered, I can see why some think that. To say they ruin the immersion in this game is kinda ridiculous though. That was my only point.

And to say that they don't lessen immersion is kinda ridiculous. That is my most recent of several points.

 

[Novare]

This whole thread is beyond comprehension. To argue what is real and what isnt in a video game, let me guess the anti immersionist think that randomly generated landscapes are all earth

This is not a simulation game, if the developers want to call something a natural wonder then in thier game that is exactly what it is.

Could they give a toggle to stop the ranting and crying sure, should they well in my opinion never give a crybaby what they want cause they will just start crying about something else.

This game is made by them for others to enjoy, if you dont enjoy thier vision they give you the tools to mod or you can stop playing.

The above comment does not apply to game mechanics that do not work or crashes as that is thier responsiblity to fix. However about what is "real" or not that is up to the company to decide, kinda like 1upt they made the game that way so complaining that it shouldnt be in the game just means you shouldnt play.

my 2 copper

Moderator Action: You'll find that you will be more successful putting your argument across if you avoid referring to other posters as "crybaby's and whiners"

 

[NKVD1938]

Yeah, immersion in a game where the ridiculous mechanics pretty much force you to keep your own population below an arbitrary level and burn all the AIs ICS cities to the ground.

I LIKE the crazy natural wonders. This game needs more elements of uncertainty and variety, as the whole exercise is otherwise rather mechanical. Get about 3 melee units. 2 siege units behind. Grind forward and exterminate the AI. Rinse then repeat.

This game needs more crazy stuff to make it more interesting. Not less.

 

[kosak]

I am baffled how these wonders ruin the game for anyone. Yes even after reading the posts. How one can say that they can extend their disbelief on everything but then a fountain of youth is in and they are like OMG NO.

We better take out Alpha Centauri, Nuclear Fission, Particle Physics and other technologies that destroy immersion. Hell, in Civ 4 we had Gilgamesh, he wasn't even a real leader!

Gandhi leads the Indian people.
Elephant units don't require ivory to be built.
Camel units DO require horses.
Marble helps build any wonder, including those made of metal.
Units embark automatically.
A single unit represents a big squadron.
SDI defense was in Civ 4, never had a problem.
Nuking my cities makes them happier.

And these are the things that are fine but 2 wonders ruin your immersion?

From a gameplay mechanics standpoint in the worst case these tiles randomly punish the player before he or she can even make a conscious choice. By that I mean the wonder can spawn within close settling distance of another civ giving an arbitrary advantage for no reason. It's not like the player is given the choice of rushing to settle near the powerful NW or focus on something else. It's dictated by luck.

I'd hate to trot out sulla's article on the failings of ciV but this element of randomly punishing the player is a prime example. It's lazy game design at best and incompetent at worst.

 

[Novare]

They are not common enough to be thought of as omg game over.
I have no experience with multiplayer so cant comment on that aspect.

The only concieveable remotely gamebreaking would be a quick match on duel size with the 500g right outside yer first town.

That being said you can bring whomevers opinion around you wish as this is a discussion of opinions with noone really being right or wrong just showing others a different way to look at it.

 

[kosak]

They are not common enough to be thought of as omg game over.
I have no experience with multiplayer so cant comment on that aspect.

The only concieveable remotely gamebreaking would be a quick match on duel size with the 500g right outside yer first town.

That being said you can bring whomevers opinion around you wish as this is a discussion of opinions with noone really being right or wrong just showing others a different way to look at it.

So it's ok only if it messes up the game only 25% of the time? Or maybe 10%? Or 5%? Like I said its sloppy game design at best. IMO this is the kind of game mechanic you either do right or you don't do at all. Kinda like 1upt if u catch my drift

 

[Novare]

What I tried to get to come across is that is the only potential time that "could" change gameplay and even then I dont think it will.

There is nothing wrong with the new wonders and they dont change the outcome of any game at all.

All these others that complain and whine saying how if i find such and such game over are all over reacting to the most extreme. 500g? even 1000 if spanish, would trade that in a heartbeat for a free tech from a goodyhut.

Well that is because I dont exploit RA's but that is for another topic

 

[Civsassin]

From a gameplay mechanics standpoint in the worst case these tiles randomly punish the player before he or she can even make a conscious choice. By that I mean the wonder can spawn within close settling distance of another civ giving an arbitrary advantage for no reason. It's not like the player is given the choice of rushing to settle near the powerful NW or focus on something else. It's dictated by luck.

I'd hate to trot out sulla's article on the failings of ciV but this element of randomly punishing the player is a prime example. It's lazy game design at best and incompetent at worst.

So ancient ruin goodies, random starting positions, statistical combat results, random placement of luxury and strategic goods, etc. (I could go on for a bit longer) aren't aspects of luck. While you choose one element of luck and say it sours the whole game (immersion experience), many aspects of the game are luck-based and have been since CivI. Natural wonders are just another one of them. If you have a wonder bothers you, your starting position doesn't get you excited, another civ snatches a ruin right before you get there, you don't have enough resources near by, etc. reload and try again as you've probably done many times when luck wasn't with you. If you don't like the game - cool, but Sulla's is the opinion of one man. I could "trot" out a dozen others that are very positive.

 

[esemjay]

Of course I have, but rarely do any of those points, "ruin the immersion" for people.

And to the other poster, making up a ridiculous wonder does not prove your argument at all. It just boils down to a slippery slope argument. It is the same as arguing for gay marriage and then saying "What next!? Are we gonna let people marry animals??"

I have no problem with people thinking that they are overpowered, I can see why some think that. To say they ruin the immersion in this game is kinda ridiculous though. That was my only point.

It's not so much that they ruin "immersion" as it is that they don't belong in "Vanilla Civ". All of the technologies in the game are either feasible, or actually ARE things being studied today. All of the "buildable" wonders, at worst, are feasible. The fountain of youth is mythical- and cannot be argued without using words like "magic" and "mythology."

Mythical wonders belong with Mythical mods. They may as well have orcs and ogres running around.

I am baffled how these wonders ruin the game for anyone. Yes even after reading the posts. How one can say that they can extend their disbelief on everything but then a fountain of youth is in and they are like OMG NO.

We better take out Alpha Centauri, Nuclear Fission, Particle Physics and other technologies that destroy immersion. Hell, in Civ 4 we had Gilgamesh, he wasn't even a real leader!

Alpha Centauri is the closest galaxy to the Milky Way, and has been a source of study for a long time. Also, space colonization is a goal of civilization- and has been a goal of civilization for a long time.

Nuclear Fission is very much a real technology, and not new in any way. It's what powers an atomic bomb.

Particle Physics is also real- look up the Hadron Collider. Or electricity.

Gilgiamesh was a leader of Uruk, which became Sumeria, which became Babylon. Actually, he's one of the first leaders of one of the first civilizations in the history of humankind.

Gandhi leads the Indian people.
Elephant units don't require ivory to be built.
Camel units DO require horses.
Marble helps build any wonder, including those made of metal.
Units embark automatically.
A single unit represents a big squadron.
SDI defense was in Civ 4, never had a problem.
Nuking my cities makes them happier.

And these are the things that are fine but 2 wonders ruin your immersion?

Ghandi was the political and idealogical leader of India during British occupation.
Single units representing arbitrary numbers is nothing new.

The rest of that list is valid- and needs to be fixed. It's not that they don't ruin immersion... it's that they are WRONG and need to be FIXED by Firaxis.

 

[JohnnyW]

This whole thread is beyond comprehension. To argue what is real and what isnt in a video game, let me guess the anti immersionist think that randomly generated landscapes are all earth

1) There is an Earth map option.
2) There is no "no fake natural wonder" option.

 

[lordsurya08]

My definition of nonsensical and yours are two very different things. CiV is historically accurate to a point. It wasn't meant to be a perfect representation of reality. If I didn't enjoy the game, I wouldn't play it, AND I always remember that it is just a game.

I'm not fussed about the NWs being unrealistic. I mind that the NWs are SO DAMN OP. 10 gold? 10 happiness and double heal? Talk about OP...