I need a large political Byzantine map

[Kyriakos]

I am mostly interested in the borders and main cities in 1204, but anything from Basil's II reign will (probably?) do for the main cities. The borders i can trace from countless other maps i found, although they present peculiarities:

-Was the latin Empire of Constantinople divided to the Thracian part and the lombardian kingdom of Thessalonike?

-Which were the capitals of the nations in the region of the Empire in 1204?

This is the minimap of the region i am interested in:

 

[attackfighter]

Too bad Europa Universalis starts at 1399 AD, otherwise I could've recommended you that.

 

[sophie]

Too bad Europa Universalis starts at 1399 AD, otherwise I could've recommended you that.

lolya, because that map is totally reliable

 

[aronnax]

lolya, because that map is totally reliable

Stop it! Or he'll call you a conformist again!


I manage to google this out.



From the wikipedia page, Thessalonica was a vassal of the Latin Empire. The Duchy of Athens and Achea were in turn vassals of Thessalonica. But the heirachy gets a bit jumbled up when the Despotate of Epirus came in and conquered stuff.

By the way, use the thread for history questions not worth their own threads next time for stuff like this.

 

[attackfighter]

lolya, because that map is totally reliable

Anything in particular you can point out?

 

[History_Buff]

Anything in particular you can point out?

A lot of the province boundaries are pretty arbitrary, and in many cases reflect modern political divisions rather than past ones, and the projection is absolutely awful.

You also can't rely on it for cultural information; particularly in the Balkans, everybody can argue until the cows come about what culture people belong to. Paradox has an unwritten blanket rule to not discuss Balkan (and some other regions) cultures, lest a nationalistic storm be whipped up.

And the extreme decentralization in Eastern Europe, and widespread tribalism outside of Europe are extremely tough to model on the Clauswitz engine. Most of their attempts haven't been overly successful.

 

[Ajidica]

Anything in particular you can point out?

Rule of thumb: Don't trust any map that is used in a video game based in the Middle Ages to give an accurate depiction of the world at that time.

 

[attackfighter]

A lot of the province boundaries are pretty arbitrary, and in many cases reflect modern political divisions rather than past ones, and the projection is absolutely awful.

This is very minor though, since a Civ3 map is going to end up having fairly arbitrary boundaries as well and so just knowing the general locations of things would suffice. And showing the general locations of things is where EU truly shines.

Rule of thumb: Don't trust any map that is used in a video game based in the Middle Ages to give an accurate depiction of the world at that time.

Okay I will link to wikipedia instead.

 

[History_Buff]

This is very minor though, since a Civ3 map is going to end up having fairly arbitrary boundaries as well and so just knowing the general locations of things would suffice. And showing the general locations of things is where EU truly shines.

Well, there is that. Kyriakos strikes me as something of a perfectionist though

 

[Lone Wolf]

Anything in particular you can point out?

Well, it doesn't represent the fact that Lesbos, Chios and a couple of Asia Minor ports were Genoan, for example (since there're no Lesbos and Chios as separate provinces). Also, Venice didn't control all of Albania, most of which was controlled by local Albanian princes. Venice only controlled ports, Durazzo in particular. Negroponte was Venetian even after the Venetian bailiff was removed from Athens.

 

[bombshoo]

Okay I will link to wikipedia instead.

For the love of god, not this again. I think I'll die a little inside if end up reading another conversation about wikipedia and that map of the Chola Empire.

Rule of thumb: Don't trust any map that is used in a video game based in the Middle Ages to give an accurate depiction of the world at that time.

I think a better rule of thumb is just to take practically all maps of the Middle Ages with a grain of salt.

 

[attackfighter]

Well, it doesn't represent the fact that Lesbos, Chios and a couple of Asia Minor ports were Genoan, for example (since there're no Lesbos and Chios as separate provinces). Also, Venice didn't control all of Albania, most of which was controlled by local Albanian princes. Venice only controlled ports, Durazzo in particular. Negroponte was Venetian even after the Venetian bailiff was removed from Athens.

This is all fixed in Magna Mundi (release date: soon). Just incase you're interested.

 

[History_Buff]

Is it though? I was pretty sure they weren't going to spend the time on all the tiny ports and such, at least not in a first release.

 

[General Pilates]

This is a tad later than 1204, but I think It's OK(though the Latin empire is larger here).

(Big image)

Spoiler :

 

[attackfighter]

Is it though? I was pretty sure they weren't going to spend the time on all the tiny ports and such, at least not in a first release.

In the current version of the mod (not full game) all of the errors Lone Wolf posted have been fixed. I only play with the mod that's why I didn't realise there were so many errors in the base game.

 

[History_Buff]

Ah, fair enough. I haven't played the mod in some time.

 

[aronnax]

That map is awesome.

 

[General Pilates]

That map is awesome.

You can thank Dachs by having a helpful link to the site in his signature.

 

[Lone Wolf]

You can thank Dachs by having a helpful link to the site in his signature.

I am no fan of the mapmaker's approach of painting areas connected by loose vassalage one color, though. Sometimes he's inconsistent - why in the 1354 map the Turkish emirates are represented like separate countries, but the Russian princedoms aren't?

 

[LamaGT]

Also MEIOU has a really good map, all the ports you cited are there, and in general the provinces respect the borders (they're also damn small but whatever).
Also it uses its own projection which is far better than MMU's old HTTT map (with some adjustments of course)