I still can't get over protective trait

[krikav]

Bonus vs mounted when you are using Archers... You are doing it wrong.

That is all.

Protective works on gunpowder units as well.
Are you even TRYING to think, before you dismiss and discredit other peoples posts?
The man is accually trying to have a discussion here.

You are not helping, when you are deliberatly misunderstanding him, and nitpicking about how he expresses himself.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Protective skirmishers truly are asinine. I'm not sure how a person in MP that isn't using inca can stop them from choking. They are odds-on vs chariots and even fight well vs axes with shock, obliterating spears. Of course, an opponent will be lucky to get any metal at all...

Archer rushing with PRO under restricted leaders makes no sense unless you are using CKN which are of course fairly solid units if you prioritize getting them (and since china doesn't start with fishing, they can bulb machinery with a GS).

Counter promos do in fact matter for gunpowder though. Only AGG and PRO can take counter promos on drafted units (with theo) and cover, pinch and shock can all be significant choices at 2 xp. AGG is still better due to higher odds + ability to get amphibious at 5 xp in that role, but PRO is a significant step from standard gunpowder regardless and the CG can actually matter in those situations too.

CG III longbows are ridiculous and will maul the AI. On a hill, a handful of them will slaughter dozens of units belonging to the AI. Of course, this is a marginal luxury given that stock CG II longbows hold hill cities pretty well too.

And that's just the problem. PRO isn't worthless. You'd take it as a freebie 3rd trait on anybody who doesn't have it, and you'd take it over nothing. It doesn't HARM you to have it and does some things that can actually contribute to victory. The problem is that compared to other traits, they're marginal bonuses. Walls/castles for "espionage econ"? Really? Maybe with no tech trades, but otherwise going EP so early is awkward and slow unless you sell out on gwall and really plan...and econ comes up awfully fast if you research the best tech trade bait. Walls aren't useless but you build them much more rarely than other buildings and the savings aren't as high. When you wait until engineering to build walls + castles, the savings are both later and fewer than some of the other traits...ouch.

Of course, pre-patch 3.19 where failaxis introduced a bug in overflow, protective was probably closing in on a top trait if you took advantage of the wall whip + chop gold overflow. Arguably, that was "too strong" although nobody really provided a clear basis for that assumption. It's not like failaxis tested it. If you want to use the "seems cheap" or "immersion breaking" excuses, then why do vassal states, AI resolution logic, and quite a few other esoteric and immersion breaking features/rules survive that patch untouched? No, some people whined to failaxis and just like the idiots who decided that shotguns were too strong in mw3 with the extended mags "glitch" (ridiculous that a weapon is outclassed at the only range it is effective. That nerf is like nerfing ironclads in civ IV), they knee-jerk nerfed protective. Yeah. Read that again and iron it into your mind: failaxis nerfed the protective trait, which was regarded by most as being weakest, and didn't give it any compensating buffs .

Pre 3.19, protective WAS actually useful and good though. Often very much so.

 

[bhavv]

On gunpowder units Protective starts you off just 2 promos away from +25% vs Armoured Units too.

Going early EP isnt slow, the Great Wall is one of the cheapest early game wonders and also helps you to rex insanely fast due to no longer having to worry about barbs.

I have a recording of Immortal level Gilgamesh with the great Wall + Rexing being uploaded to youtube atm.

When you wait until engineering to build walls + castles, the savings are both later and fewer than some of the other traits...ouch.

Indeed, I dont think anyone is saying PRO is better than FIN, ORG, CRE or EXP, but its simply nowhere near as bad as people keep on making it out to be.

Archer rushing with PRO under restricted leaders makes no sense

I just did it in my last game on Emperor difficulty, I used 10 archers and wiped out Genghis Khan by 1500 BC taking both his cities. I managed to stop him connecting his Copper with a warrior, and then attacked his cities with a horde of Cover promoted Archers. I reloaded the 4000 BC save and did it again 3 or 4 times, no fluke it works. PRO Archers with Cover beat ordinary Archers easily.

Of course, pre-patch 3.19 where failaxis introduced a bug in overflow, protective was probably closing in on a top trait if you took advantage of the wall whip + chop gold overflow.

Can you explain what this is? I cant remember anything about the game pre BTS or unpatched.

 

[Um the Muse]

I have to ask: how come nobody talks about LB rushes even though they still talk about X-Bows? I never tried it, but the forum had made some good arguments for it back when.

 

[bhavv]

I have to ask: how come nobody talks about LB rushes even though they still talk about X-Bows? I never tried it, but the forum had made some good arguments for it back when.

Xbows have +50% vs Melee, LBs dont. Longbows arent effective when used to attack cities.

Maceman attacking Maceman - both have +50% vs melee so their strengths are raised to 12.

Xbow atacking Maceman - Xbow has +50% vs melee so its strength is raised to 9. Macemen dont have any bonuses against archery units, so its strength remains at 8.

 

[Ghpstage]

Castle espionage points will get you so many more free techs than Spiritual can ever hope to pay off for.

Huh!?...
Castles are not purely available to Protective civs. At most a Pro leader saves 75:hammers per city for a Wall and Castle.... at worst it will save you just 43. This are hardly going to be the difference between 'many' techs. I would expect the savings on anarchy turns are likely to wipe out Pros advantage entirely :lol

Plus, Spiritual has its own advantages for espionage games, specifically:
Swapping civics is helpful for manipulating espionage cost reductions, especially useful when swapping to a new target civ
It greatly improves the utility of the change religion and civic misisons (until/without CR)
The hammer savings on Temples->Cathedrals can be used to reduce misison costs too

Can you explain what this is? I cant remember anything about the game pre BTS or unpatched.

Once your overflow reached a certain level (equal to the cost IIRC) any more hammers added above this were turned into gold, this included hammers gained by bonus multipliers like the +100% for Pro Walls. With chops and whips near the end of construction it was possible to get hundreds of gold per wall built, and it got even more potent if you had stone

It was good, even if I can't agree with TMIT's description of approaching the top, as anyone could make use of chop/whip overflowed Warriors, or HE Workboats/Warriors or even stone Walls, and some other traits could do similar things too i.e. Exp Granaries, Organised Lighthouses and Aggresive Barracks.

 

[bhavv]

I know that Castles are not only unique to Protective Civs, but if you are playing one they are a good way to use what small production bonuses they get.

I dont ever build temple / cathedrals unless pursuing a culture win, and I wouldnt normally play any Spiritual Civ that way, though that could be an ok way of utilizing Saladin's trait combination.

 

[Um the Muse]

The hammer savings on Temples->Cathedrals can be used to reduce misison costs too

Can you explain this part? I don't see the connection.

Xbows have +50% vs Melee, LBs dont. Longbows arent effective when used to attack cities.

Maceman attacking Maceman - both have +50% vs melee so their strengths are raised to 12.

Xbow atacking Maceman - Xbow has +50% vs melee so its strength is raised to 9. Macemen dont have any bonuses against archery units, so its strength remains at 8.

Yeah, but the point of using LB's is that you can get them earlier and with an additional promotion (thanks to Vassalage). More importantly, you can vassalize your victim.

 

[Ghpstage]

Can you explain this part? I don't see the connection.

You recieve a discount off espionage mssions in cities that are under the influcence of your culture**, proportional to the culture your civ has in their city. Therefore bombarding a rivals city with your culture will reduce costs and Cathedrals are very effective in this kind of role.
This isn't something I have tried much to be honest, but i have had some success, though it would be annoying if cities flip to you and i'm not sure the AI will accept it gifted back, I don't remember getting having a problem with this when I tried however.

It was inspired by an old deity game someone played, where a city was placed near the players capital and gifted away, the gifted city couldn't flip as a result and so was safe from ridiculous culture bombardment that followed. Along with the other factors (being close, trade routes etc) it helped drive tech stealing prices down to insanely low levels.

**Edited typo

 

[Um the Muse]

^ That's genius. I'm going to have to try that one of these days. I imagine it works best with a vassal who can't declare war?

 

[Ghpstage]

^ That's genius. I'm going to have to try that one of these days. I imagine it works best with a vassal who can't declare war?

Unfortunately vassals usually mean you beat them to a pulp to capitulate, so their tech strength will be very limited, and they still can technically break away and declare war.
I'm not sure if a city under culture presure is anymore a factor in an AI declaring than the typical diplo hit for diplo and land target for war decision modifiers anyway, besides half the point is to do it to a friend (shared religion ).

 

[MCan]

shotguns were too strong in mw3 with the extended mags "glitch" (ridiculous that a weapon is outclassed at the only range it is effective.

Hey I know this is a Civ4 thread but I'd love to know what the extended mags glitch is! My mw3 game needs as much, if not more help as my civ game! At least on civ I can stay at prince! PM or whatever as needed. Please!

If its just extra pellets I found the answer, and no wonder I get my gluts handed by those players with a striker...

 

[AJ11]

Protective works on gunpowder units as well.
Are you even TRYING to think, before you dismiss and discredit other peoples posts?
The man is accually trying to have a discussion here.

You are not helping, when you are deliberatly misunderstanding him, and nitpicking about how he expresses himself.

You might want to read his post again. Tell me where he mentioned Gunpowder units. In you own words, "Are you even TRYING to think, before you dismiss and discredit other peoples posts?"

 

[vranasm]

Can you explain this part? I don't see the connection.



Yeah, but the point of using LB's is that you can get them earlier and with an additional promotion (thanks to Vassalage). More importantly, you can vassalize your victim.

that's not true on highest levels.
For machinery bulb with GS you just need GS, aesth, math, alpha and MC and avoid Fishing.

Aesth is most used trading chip with which you get alpha almost always. That leaves you to math and MC. MC you can selftech while waiting for Math to open in trades, which should come.

That could lead to ~700 BC Machinery bulb with a little bit of luck and some good commerce going.

 

[bhavv]

You might want to read his post again. Tell me where he mentioned Gunpowder units. In you own words, "Are you even TRYING to think, before you dismiss and discredit other peoples posts?"

Everyone else in this thread are thinking far better than you are before discrediting other peoples posts.

Its completely obvious to anyone that knows anything about the game that Pro also affects gunpowder units.

 

[krikav]

You might want to read his post again. Tell me where he mentioned Gunpowder units. In you own words, "Are you even TRYING to think, before you dismiss and discredit other peoples posts?"

Come on, now you are just an embarassment.

I complain that you are nitpicking on how he expresses himself, and you instantly replies.

"Tell me where he mentioned Gunpowder units."

This is exacly what I want you to stop with.
It doesn't contribute in any way.

Try to be abit friendly instead?

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Instead of trying to discredit each other by getting personal, please focus upon the ideas presented and discuss those. It is time to stop the sniping and focus on the issues.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Um the Muse]

that's not true on highest levels.
For machinery bulb with GS you just need GS, aesth, math, alpha and MC and avoid Fishing.

Aesth is most used trading chip with which you get alpha almost always. That leaves you to math and MC. MC you can selftech while waiting for Math to open in trades, which should come.

That could lead to ~700 BC Machinery bulb with a little bit of luck and some good commerce going.

Oh. Got ya. IIrc, the people making the claim were able to Oracle their way or something, but I'm pretty sure that's impossible on highest difficulties, right?

It's too bad; I like the idea of curb stomping with LB's. What about bulbing Feudalism with a GM or something?

 

[vranasm]

Oh. Got ya. IIrc, the people making the claim were able to Oracle their way or something, but I'm pretty sure that's impossible on highest difficulties, right?

It's too bad; I like the idea of curb stomping with LB's. What about bulbing Feudalism with a GM or something?

i wouldn't describe it as impossible, but more like unreliable at best.

Oracle dates are always sort of gambit. You can see even some 2k BC Oracle dates and in that case I am almost certain you won't be able to tech Monarchy in time.

More common with some superstrong (tech wise) position is Oracling CS anyway. There is big difference between waiting up to 700 BC with the GS for machinery bulb, or having all techs around 1600 BC - 1400 BC (as typical dates on Emperor+) for Oracle.

This strategy stands on its own feet, no need for risky gambits with Oracle and is reliable way for example for China.
Btw if you check the HOF VI Challenger game I think 3, it's played with China and some people had there success with trebs+XBows warfare in BC era (with double GS bulb - one for machinery second Engineering).
In fact I planned to use that technique, but got Meditation in trades and thus I had to burn 1st GS for Philo and 2nd for Machinery.

 

[bhavv]

I find that on Immortal and Deity, the AI builds the Oracle far too quickly.

I would imagine that IND, and Qin Shi would be best way of pulling this off - He doesnt start with fishing, IND gets the Oracle built quicker, and ofc Protective Chu ko nus are the most powerful units to do this rush with.

I used to play Qin Shi for Cultural games very often, I found that the Chu ko nus provided a fantastic defense and an easy way to kill any invading stacks. For 60 you get a Crossbow with an extra first strike with CG1 / Drill 2, plus a catapult rolled into it as well.

I never tried rushing cities with them though, I used them in the field to destroy enemy SODs when attacked. However I have tried out Archer rushing with Gilgamesh when I had no copper nearby, and it works just as effectively as a Quecha rush, it just takes a little longer time and you need to stop the AI connecting any metals or horses.