I think I'm coming around on this civ switching implementation, but it depends

Well, that has always been the official tagline of the series, but not necessarily the real tagline. That would be "One. More. Turn."

No "build an empire that will span the test of time" is the official and real tagline.

There's a reason why Civ games open up with a monologue about your leader and civilization that asks you to build an empire that spans the test of time and why you find the tagline on the series's box art and throughout its manuals.
 
First of all, I don't want to paint an inaccurate picure: I'm not against the evolution of one civilization into another from a conceptual standpoint. My gripe has been with the example they showed in the big gameplay reveal -- Egypt becoming Mongolia -- and how that demonstrated to me a lack of plausability in terms of which civilizations can become which. I just don't find it within the realm of imagination that simply because Egypt could become societally dependent upon horses that they would have become Mongolia. Mongolia is culturally a lot more than horses, geographically nowhere close to Egypt, spoke a completely unrelated language to ancient Egyptian, and didn't ascend from any remotely similar tribes.

However, I think something is confusing all the conversation on this, and that's one word: "Civilization".

When you transition into a new age, who is transitioning? I don't think we really know yet. We know that a crisis brings your civilization to its knees. My interpretation of this is:

1) Government and authority break down
2) Many people die, perhaps whole people groups
3) Cultural skills and talents are lost to time

Taking the Mongolia example, if we imagine that a tribe of people prospers among the chaos that saw Egypt collapse, a new one could arise. If you imagine that the people called "Mongolians" come from a tribe of people who lived among the Egyptians, and shared some of their culture, but also had some of their own, this is quite believable. The word "Mongolians" is a bit confusing because I associate it with "people from Asia", but in this context it could simply mean "steppe nomads famed for their horsemanship and skill at warfare", geography be damned.

As far as language goes, we simply imagine that the new Mongol civilization speaks either Egyptian, or their own Mesopotamian language. It could be called Mongolian, but it wouldn't be historical Mongolian.

As far as physical appearance goes, this is where things could get weird. If the people of my first civilization have a North African appearance, then it wouldn't make sense for my second civ to suddenly be red and blonde headed people who look Norse. I'm curious how they will handle this. I suppose you could blame this on Sea Peoples, but what about other crises?

As far as architecture goes, it's quite feasible that the new civilization will have a new architecture. Where this could get weird would be to see, for example, Asian architecture arise in Egypt due to the Mongolians, and then the exact same Asian architecture arise on the other side of the world due to (for example) the rise of Korea. I guess we could say aliens...

So my question really is: how much are we evolving "a civilization", and how much are we starting over with a new civ that has some influences from the past; a different, dead civilization? I think there are ways to imagine these kinds of scenarios plausibly, but it's going to depend on how they portray it.

Regardless of whether it's plausible, and regardless of whether it ends up being fun, it all leads me to some interesting, fundamental questions, though.

Are we really building an empire (or civilization) to stand the test of time, if the first two will always fail in crisis?

Is the game Civilization, or Civilizations?
I don't think it has been layed out everything already out to a point of exclusion of either ones.
 
No "build an empire that will span the test of time" is the official and real tagline.

There's a reason why Civ games open up with a monologue about your leader and civilization that asks you to build an empire that spans the test of time and why you find the tagline on the series's box art and throughout its manuals.
Genuine question, how often has that line actually been used? I know it's on the Civ website, and it's on the Civ 1 box + in the Civ 1 intro, but I don't think it is on any other box art and I just went back to watch all the intros + launch trailers, I only heard a similar line used in the Civ V launch trailer, no where else. I honestly didn't realise it was the tag line until the furore over switching. :lol:
 
When Alexander the Great conquered Persia and other territories to the east, he forced his generals and encouraged his soldiers to marry locals from conquered territories in order to mix the cultures up and strengthen the ties. He succeeded, creating what we today call Hellenistic Culture, a blend of Greek, Macedon, Persian, and Egyptian cultures. He was himself proclaimed a Pharaox of Egypt and fully embraced their traditions.

It's funny when people say civ switching is not historical when it clearly is. The devil is in the details, i.e. the implementation.
 
Genuine question, how often has that line actually been used? I know it's on the Civ website, and it's on the Civ 1 box + in the Civ 1 intro, but I don't think it is on any other box art and I just went back to watch all the intros + launch trailers, I only heard a similar line used in the Civ V launch trailer, no where else. I honestly didn't realise it was the tag line until the furore over switching. :lol:

It is usually after you pick your Civ and settings and start a new game in the intro text/ movie. In Civ 1 it was after making a new game and a cutscene of a goddess ended with that as the text. In Civ 4, when you start a new game Leonard Nimoy's Intro he ends it with "build a legacy that will span the test of time." In Civ 3 it is in the initial text box when you start a new game with your civ info. Civ 6 doesn't have it though.
 
Genuine question, how often has that line actually been used? I know it's on the Civ website, and it's on the Civ 1 box + in the Civ 1 intro, but I don't think it is on any other box art and I just went back to watch all the intros + launch trailers, I only heard a similar line used in the Civ V launch trailer, no where else. I honestly didn't realise it was the tag line until the furore over switching. :lol:

Used on the cover over the first civ game and in its intro. Used in Civ V launch trailer and the starting monologues given to your leader at the start of every single game of Civ 5. Every campaign start end with "oh great <insert leader here>, can you build an civilization/empire that stands the test of time" I'm pretty sure was the case in Civ 3 and 4 as well and even Civ 6 probably has the tagline somewhere (though admittedly I haven't played those games in ages)

The tagline is found repeatedly in past games and their manuals including the first paragraph of its introduction
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This one is pretty obvious too.
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The tagline is still used in promotional materials for the series TO THIS DAY including this latest showcase. "Building an empire/civilization to span the test of time" shouldn't be unfamiliar concept or phrase if you are a fan of the series.
 
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Civ-changing Ages is one of the main reasons that Humankind failed miserably. I hope, and I have faith that the dev in Firaxis will not make the same mistake and find a reasonable solution
 
"Building an empire/civilization to span the test of time" shouldn't be unfamiliar concept or phrase if you are a fan of the series.
Wouldn't say it was unfamiliar, just that it hadn't really registered as the tagline. If someone had held a gun to my head and asked me what the tagline of Civ was (before the switching stuff), I probably would have said "one more turn" myself.

I should point out that I enjoy the games but I'm not really a fanatic. I played 1 a bit, then 4 quite a lot, then 5 a bit, then 6 quite a lot. 2 and 3 I've only played once and only relatively recently.
 
Humankind failed miserably specifically because the only way to win the game is via score victory. Fame is AWFUL.

Secondly because playing the map was boring. Build a quarter, build a building, wait for enough influence to claim another territory, rince and repeat, clicking the end turn button. Combat can be tactical but who cares, I want it automatically resolved, so that it doesn't distract from the important tasks of building and maintaining an empire.

Also the draconian settlement limit, which means you'll never get to 10 cities by natural expansion, which is... one of my fave parts of Civ? It's not Civ I haven't settled at least 15 cities on the map and ideally many many more. :-//

The Civ Switching was an inconvenience because you could never buid to your heart's content before it became opportune to switch again, meaning you'd miss out on the previous emblematic quarters :-// But it was never the problem, beyond that it happened too often and left you with no impression of the Civs you previously chose.

Overall, yeah, HK had multiple problems, and the more I think about it, the more I prefer Millennia.
 
Genuine question, how often has that line actually been used?

More to the point, I'm not sure that the current designers of the game should be constrained by one specific interpretation of one formulation of a 30 year old marketing slogan.
 
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More to the point, I'm not sure that the current designers of the game should be constrained by one specific interpretation of one formulation of a 30 year old marketing slogan.
To be fair though, that was communal interpretation of that slogan that was more of a mission statement of the game itself. Every iteration has been about going from the stone age to modern day as a singular civilization. Technically, the new mechanics, that civilization is not standing the test of time. "Empires rise and fall" but leaders "stand the test of time" is more its mission statement. Which I am fine with personally but I understand why a fan of the series would hold this critique against the new system. It is a big change from the core concept of the series. My only concern is the generic "you can be the mongols if you find horses" mentality. I know that history is a bit airy in the Civ series but trying to emulate the intricate nature of empire reformation/conquest in such a seemingly haphazard way is pretty jarring. Not just for gameplay, but to the concept of this particular series.

I would rather they not, but am still somehow excited for Civ 7 despite this. I do worry it will be like districts in 6 though and ultimately disappoint me. There has always been talk of civs being able to break away and become a new nation as America did with England. Its funny for American stone age warriors to be at war with the Cherokee warriors. So while this new system seems wonky, so did the old system in terms of historical realism. However, I am hoping they have something in place where eventually the Cherokee evolve into America. So that the natural evolution of your empire you select is at least relatively consistent with the real world in some logical way. I don't know. I have to many questions and a lot of months to think about them. I mostly commented to lend some credibility to the series slogan and how perhaps it is something to adhere to in development of a beloved series that has survived on that slogan for 30 years. Sid Meier has certainly built a civilization that has stood the test of time. :D

P.S. I just saw that you joined this site a mere 4 days after I did. I would say that is crazy but it is also Civ 4's release date.;)
 
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P.S. I just saw that you joined this site a mere 4 days after I did. I would say that is crazy but it is also Civ 4's release date.;)

Haha, well investigated - did you also take a 6 year hiatus?

Civilization departs so much from history, not just in what happens, but also in its fundamental mechanics, that talking about realism or historical accuracy makes no sense to me. Being historically flavoured is the closest that Civilization comes to history. This flavour is vitally important to Civilization games, and is definitely changed by civ-swapping. But its impact is almost completely unrelated to questions of accuracy, because there is virtually none to speak of in the game anyway. Whether you like the new flavours or not is completely subjective, so there's nothing worth arguing about here.

The problem with bringing in a 30 year old phrase into this is that it's simply irrelevant to the conversation. It's an attempt to go from "this change is big" (which is true, though probably not as big as we are all making it out to be) and "I don't like it" (perfectly fair) to "therefore it's bad". But the existence of an old phrase does nothing to back up this inference. It just demonstrates that the change is, in fact, a change. True, as any truism can be, but that's all. It come's down to Voltaire: “A witty saying proves nothing.” Or, for a modern example, it's trying to convince a jury by saying "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit". Short, catchy sentences sound profound (and are fun to say!) but they're not good reasoning.

But even if we were to take "Build a civilization/empire to stand the test of time" as an inviable holy guideline about what a Civilization game must be about (which I don't think we should), then I'd argue that Civilization 7 doesn't break that. Obviously not for the "empire" version, and not for the "civilization" version either. It's just that the historical-flavour of the civilization we build is no longer taken solely from the game creation screen, but gets built on during the age transitions. Lets not lose track that none of us have ever built Mongolia. Mongolia is a real thing outdoors. What we've built is our own fictional civilization, within the confines of the game. We're still going to be doing that in Civ7. In fact, we're now building a civilization in more ways than before because we're building up not just its cities, units, technologies, etc.. but also its identity by adding in elements (both in terms of mechanics and of flavour) from other civilizations. Sure, by adding in flavour from other sources we're changing the civilization as we're building it, but that's building it none the less - giving a house a lick of paint and changing decorations doesn't stop it being the same house. There's still continuity in the thing your building, and the sum total of what you're building is still singular. Besides, in prior versions of the game, when you conquered the world as a Fascist Jewish Genghis Kahn who had built the Pyramids and was mass producing aircraft carriers from your island capital, it's clear to me that your in-game civilization had been influenced by more real-world civilizations than just Mongolia too.

Now it's possible to take "Build a civilization/empire to stand the test of time", reduce it to only "Build a civilization to stand the test of time", and interpret it such that the "civilization" mentioned in it is precisely the civilization you pick in the game creation screen in its purest form; then Civ7 does break that phrase. But I don't believe that the old marketing phrase in its widest form should be placed an untouchable altar, and I certainly see no reason that one specific interpretation of one specific formulation of it should be either! Which is the exact sentiment I expressed in my prior post, just expressed in too much detail now lol.

If anything breaks that famous catchphrase it's not the civ-swapping. It's the crises. Because they force us to partially-fail the test of time twice. Although I'd argue the fact that you're being stress-tested means that you're actually being put through "the test of time" in a way that we rarely were in past game. From a historical flavour perspective (let alone a gameplay one) partially failing multiple times before succeeding sounds awesome to me!
 
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Could just recognize that "time" is a real jerk and getting anything to stand up to the tests of time is an achievement, even if you don't get everything in your civilization to survive, passing a legacy down of any kind is a victory. After all..."It's a shame she won't live. But then again, who does?"
 
Could just recognize that "time" is a real jerk and getting anything to stand up to the tests of time is an achievement, even if you don't get everything in your civilization to survive, passing a legacy down of any kind is a victory. After all..."It's a shame she won't live. But then again, who does?"
And I think people may be focusing too much on the fact that you pick a different "civilization" each age, but you're still the same civilization/empire, the same group of people that changed culture through the ages because of things that happened. Which is something that happened in other games too, you get new techs and civics, the way your civilization looks changes, you may midway get into a war and end up losing a bit of territory, but surviving and later expanding.

So basically, in the end it is just a change of name, a different way to represent how your civ changes as time passes. I would venture a guess a reason they decide to make it so you have different civilizations for each age rather than be an civ with a full bonus and then pick generic evolution for each age, is that they prefer to have the possible bonuses you get in a age to have some historical flavor association rather than just generic options. So instead of starting as Civ X and picking on exploration a "Cavalry Military culture specialization" for you next age bonuses, you pick then in the form of a civilization like Mongolia for the association.

In a way, the crisis system makes the "stand the test of time" even more interesting now. With the exception of when you start a game and get unlucky to be near a very aggressive civ type, it is generally very easy to stand the test of time in civilization. It isn't easy to win, especially depending on difficulty, but to just survive until the later parts of the game isn't hard. Now the crisis will likely add a spice, something besides the end game victory that you will struggle to triumph over and really stand the est of time.
 
At PAX just now, devs shared some examples of potential paths for civ switching:

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Honestly, I feel like this is pretty interesting. The fact that you play as Maurya India that becomes Chola India, that becomes Mughal India, shows that you can play as the same nation", just evolving over the ages. And yeah, you can pick some ahistorical switches like Egypt to Songhai but that is the what if part of civ. But you can pick more historical switches too.
 
I do think that civ switching opens up a lot of new possibilities for the player in terms of strategies. It also opens up new possibilities for modders. So it is hard to see why the devs would not do this.
 
The Chola and the Mughals are not the same. They don't even overlap territorially to any significant extent.

By the way, it looks like they swapped the Chola and Mughal emblems
Hopefully they will add additional Indian and Chinese civs so there can be multiple each era.
 
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