I want to learn

barril

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 28, 2010
Messages
28
Hello!

So I've always liked Civ, and I've been playing for some time now, but I still suck at the game.

I believe my biggest problem is coming up with a plan, but I'd argue that would come with more experience and knowledge about the game, the tech tree, social policies, etc. My settling is also sub-optimal, but not the worst (I like to think).

Most of the times I start a game just to quit around turn 150ish (or sooner) because I feel I'm just wandering around without a defined objective and I feel weak.

In my pursuit to get better I decided to ask for help from the best, and here am I. If you could be so kind, and give me a few pointers and tips. I'll add a few screen shots of a game I've just started and ask for input on my progress and plan and what I can do differently/better.

Map Information:
China;
Prince;
Continents;
Everything else standard;

Start:
Spoiler :


First 25 turns:

Spoiler :
Turn 1
Settled in place;
Started on a scout;
Moved warrior up to explore.

Turn 3
Got a culture ruin - didn't really changed my usual early game plan (see below);

Turn 5
Met Colombo CS;
Adopted tradition (I usually start with tradition to allow me to go for a tall empire because fewer cities are easier to manage);
Beijing also grew and I decided to work the second cow tile instead of the hill so I could grow again faster.

Turn 6
Finished scout and started on a monument;
Sent scout southeast to explore.

Turn 7
Met Pacal and Washington.

Turn 9
Finished Pottery and started on Animal Husbandry for the cows.

Turn 13
Adopted Oligarchy.

Turn 14
Monument finished and I started on a new Scout.

Turn 16
Finished Animal Husbandry and started on Calendar for the luxuries.

Turn 18
Finished Scout and started on a Worker.

Turn 25
Calendar is going to finish on the next turn but my worker will still take 5 turns to complete.

After Calendar I'm thinking Archery, than Mining into Masonry than Writing.
After the Worker I'm thinking either an Archer or a Settler. If I go Settler I'm thinking about settling between the two CSs to the northwest (marked on the image). And maybe go for Desert Folklore and Petra?

America is to the southeast and I'm also considering settling towards them and try to take them out early, but the tundra tiles don't have me overly excited.








So guys, what can you tell me about my start and my plan?

Thanks in advance!
 
you can't settle there. It needs to be at least 3 between your city and the city state.

I think the hill tile, one to the right is a better spot to settle on anyway. Also, find out what is going on by the right side of your capital. There might be another good spot to settle there too.

If you can help it, always try to settle on a hill tile for better defense and more hammers.

I notice that you didn't build a shrine though. You should build your first shrine early and hope that your pantheon can do most of the work in getting your religion set up. Desert Folklore would be nice with this. Either that or the + 1 faith and + 1 culture for wine and incense. But agian, I need to see what is going on by the right side of your capital.

I see that your warrior is damaged, probably from the barb camp. The best advice with barbs, assuming that it isn't some special civ, such as Germany or Songhai, is to ignore the camps until you get ranged units and city states are asking for help. Your warrior should've scouted the lands a little and then came on his way back by the time the worker started building.

I know this is only Prince difficulty, but everyone of these are little things that make all the difference when learning.

Also, it is better to send your scouts in opposite directions.

Moderator Action: Five posts by same user in rapid succession merged.
 
I really don't like the look of that map. It seems all the unique luxes are in subpar city locations.

As pointed out, if you want to expand there, put your city on the hill one tile to the right from your suggested location, on the hills, and you can get 2 incense. But since you already have incense from the capital, it won't help with your happiness.

The south end of the river at your right, by the mountain, can eventually reach the dye and horses, and is the better alternative imo. You can expand west after you've connected your luxuries and built several happiness buildings.
 
Some minor advice.

Since you are playing on Prince, you can't rely on stealing workers early, so you need to build one yourself. I see you are teching in order to get the improvements for the workers, but getting a worker at T30 might be late. You are already at population 3 and could build a settler. I would add a worker faster, and since you got a culture ruin, you can skip monument, you get a free one with legalism (with only a minor delay to culture), so you will benefit a lot more from a worker.

The tech order for this map, for me, would be pottery, mining, animal husbandry, and then calendar, and so on. Maybe add archery if barbs are giving you trouble, and add an archer to your early build order.

Mining is very important since it allows you to chop forests, this adds hammers to your capital and greatly speeds up buildings. First thing to do with a worker is chop the wood east of Beijing, this will add 20 hammers (i think), and will speed up the current build. Then start chopping the forests on the citrus, you will need to chop them anyway for improving them with a plantation. Chopping further away from the city gives less hammers, and even less if the tile is not inside your cultural borders, but it is worth it anyway. Those early hammers accelerate you a lot.

You could add a second worker to your build orders since there is so much work to do, this would be built faster with the chopping. One worker could start on pastures while the other chops the forests around Beijing. Try to improve all the tiles the city is working: pastures on the cows, sheep, add a mine on those hills (this will help with settler production). After that connect the luxuries, if the AI has money (at least 7GPT) you could improve luxuries faster and sell them for 7GPT, be sure to keep some happiness for yourself, not to go into unhappiness, but that would be unlikely this early.

You have good land for Pantheon beliefs so include a shrine in the Build Order. This is why pottery is important, you can build a shrine as soon as you research Pottery, or you could finish the current project and then start work on the shrine. The earlier the shrine the better, since you get a pantheon faster, and start adding faith for the first prophet.

You have a few good options: the one that gives culture from pastures seems very good, since you will be working both cows and sheep so that is an early +3 culture. The expos seem to have a decent amount of pastures so they will also add culture.
There is the one that gives +1 food from citrus, banana and wheat. With all that citrus around it is also a good option to accelerate growth.
There is also the pantheon that gives culture and faith form incense but I see only 3 in the area and 2 of them are on flat desert, so you would not want to work those tiles anyway.
With a fast expo in the west, desert folklore can give you a lot of faith generation since you have some sheep on desert, floodplains and other desert hills. This will give you a very powerful religion and let you choose religious building which can be very good. So depending on how fast you get your cities up, this can be very good. The capital only gets +1 faith, so very early the boost is not that big.

So getting a pantheon fast is a good option. Of course at T9 you did not have all this information, but shrine would have been a good idea for the culture from pastures anyway.

My initial build order would have been: scout, worker, shrine, worker, (scout), settler, settler, granary, archer, archer. Maybe add the first archer sooner if there are too many barbs. Once getting the workers up, return the warrior home for protection, and use the scout to see potential city spots. The archer is useful to get barb camps and get city quests.

For the expos, I would try to explore the dark area east of Beijing, that river seems nice with the horses, bison, and maybe citrus in the 3rd ring. If the land is good, that would be my first expo.

The one you marked is also good, it can be a good city with Petra, a decent city without it. But I would plant it either one tile east of the mark, on the hill or two tiles, on the citrus. I don't think you can, since it is too close to the CS.
For the city on the hill the advantages are: 1 extra hammer and better defense for being on hill, also adding incense in the 3rd ring.
The city on the citrus has other advantages as well, it is next to a mountains so it can build observatories, it has more land since you are further away from the CS. Also it will always work the citrus so that is 1 extra gpt for the entire game (you also lose 1 gpt from not being able to improve the citrus so this is a tradeoff). But the big advantages come with Petra, it has 2 sheep in range, and one river hill. Those are 3 food 3 production tiles with Petra, you also add cow in the 3rd ring (3 food 1 production, two with stable), and various hills which will be 1 food 4 production tiles. There will be some overlap with Beijing but that is not that important. You also lose access to stone, so and also to Stoneworks.
So both spots have it's tradeoffs. I would probably chose the mountain spot.

For the 4th city I would check the area with the salt between Beijing and the American lands, maybe it's good. Another decent spot is SE of Beijing, on the tundra hill next to the mountain. You get 2 deer, stone, dies, and some river plains. Of course this all depends on other expo placement since you don't want too much overlap.

A city on the coast could help, since you can use cargo ships for internal trade routes to/from the capital. See if the coast SE of Beijing is worth settling, with some sea resources, and the deer already visible, it might make a good city.
 
Hello again!

Sorry for the delay, it was getting late last night and I had to go to bed.

you can't settle there. It needs to be at least 3 between your city and the city state.

I did not know about that. Thanks!

I think the hill tile, one to the right is a better spot to settle on anyway. Also, find out what is going on by the right side of your capital. There might be another good spot to settle there too.

If you can help it, always try to settle on a hill tile for better defense and more hammers.

I also considered the hill, but wanted the extra production from a mine, but the defence and initial extra production is probably better. Yeah, i'll explore that part ASAP and than make a more educated decision on my settle spot.

I notice that you didn't build a shrine though. You should build your first shrine early and hope that your pantheon can do most of the work in getting your religion set up. Desert Folklore would be nice with this. Either that or the + 1 faith and + 1 culture for wine and incense. But agian, I need to see what is going on by the right side of your capital.

When would you suggest I build the shrine? Right after the monument (instead of the second scout)? I guess that since I'm not playing Pangea the second scout might not be as important and could be replaced by a shrine. I'm really thinking desert folklore, but like you say, I need to check out the area to the right to make sure.

I see that your warrior is damaged, probably from the barb camp. The best advice with barbs, assuming that it isn't some special civ, such as Germany or Songhai, is to ignore the camps until you get ranged units and city states are asking for help. Your warrior should've scouted the lands a little and then came on his way back by the time the worker started building.

Yeah, it is from the barb camp and a couple barbs in it's vicinity. I was bringing him around to my city when I found them and decided to clear it. I guess that's one of the things I'm doing wrong, since I've lost a couple units in the last few games to barbs. I'll follow your advice.

I know this is only Prince difficulty, but everyone of these are little things that make all the difference when learning.

Also, it is better to send your scouts in opposite directions.

Thanks for all the input!

I really don't like the look of that map. It seems all the unique luxes are in subpar city locations.

Yeah, I'm not really liking this map too, but I'll try and stick with it and see if I can learn a bit more about the game.

As pointed out, if you want to expand there, put your city on the hill one tile to the right from your suggested location, on the hills, and you can get 2 incense. But since you already have incense from the capital, it won't help with your happiness.

The south end of the river at your right, by the mountain, can eventually reach the dye and horses, and is the better alternative imo. You can expand west after you've connected your luxuries and built several happiness buildings.

I hadn't really considered that spot you mention by the river, but it does seem like a good location for a city. It could build an observatory and, like you said, it would hook up a couple more resources. I'll give it some thought.

Thanks!

Some minor advice.

Since you are playing on Prince, you can't rely on stealing workers early, so you need to build one yourself. I see you are teching in order to get the improvements for the workers, but getting a worker at T30 might be late. You are already at population 3 and could build a settler. I would add a worker faster, and since you got a culture ruin, you can skip monument, you get a free one with legalism (with only a minor delay to culture), so you will benefit a lot more from a worker.

Yeah, I've noticed that I can't really steal workers as soon as people do on higher difficulties and changed my early BO to include a Worker. I went for the monument anyway because I prefer a free Amphitheatre in the Capital instead of a free Monument, every time I get a culture ruin early I consider skipping the monument, bet end up always taking it for the reason above...

The tech order for this map, for me, would be pottery, mining, animal husbandry, and then calendar, and so on. Maybe add archery if barbs are giving you trouble, and add an archer to your early build order.

Mining is very important since it allows you to chop forests, this adds hammers to your capital and greatly speeds up buildings. First thing to do with a worker is chop the wood east of Beijing, this will add 20 hammers (i think), and will speed up the current build. Then start chopping the forests on the citrus, you will need to chop them anyway for improving them with a plantation. Chopping further away from the city gives less hammers, and even less if the tile is not inside your cultural borders, but it is worth it anyway. Those early hammers accelerate you a lot.

I never really thought about chopping the forests to be honest and because of that and because I wasn't going to build a Worker as early as you would I prioritised Animal Husbandry and Calendar over Mining...

You could add a second worker to your build orders since there is so much work to do, this would be built faster with the chopping. One worker could start on pastures while the other chops the forests around Beijing. Try to improve all the tiles the city is working: pastures on the cows, sheep, add a mine on those hills (this will help with settler production). After that connect the luxuries, if the AI has money (at least 7GPT) you could improve luxuries faster and sell them for 7GPT, be sure to keep some happiness for yourself, not to go into unhappiness, but that would be unlikely this early.

You have good land for Pantheon beliefs so include a shrine in the Build Order. This is why pottery is important, you can build a shrine as soon as you research Pottery, or you could finish the current project and then start work on the shrine. The earlier the shrine the better, since you get a pantheon faster, and start adding faith for the first prophet.

I'm now fully convinced that building the monument has really hampered my start.

You have a few good options: the one that gives culture from pastures seems very good, since you will be working both cows and sheep so that is an early +3 culture. The expos seem to have a decent amount of pastures so they will also add culture.
There is the one that gives +1 food from citrus, banana and wheat. With all that citrus around it is also a good option to accelerate growth.
There is also the pantheon that gives culture and faith form incense but I see only 3 in the area and 2 of them are on flat desert, so you would not want to work those tiles anyway.
With a fast expo in the west, desert folklore can give you a lot of faith generation since you have some sheep on desert, floodplains and other desert hills. This will give you a very powerful religion and let you choose religious building which can be very good. So depending on how fast you get your cities up, this can be very good. The capital only gets +1 faith, so very early the boost is not that big.

So getting a pantheon fast is a good option. Of course at T9 you did not have all this information, but shrine would have been a good idea for the culture from pastures anyway.

The pastures one was already taken if I'm not mistaken, can't remember what turn it happened, but I'm pretty sure the AI has taken it already.

My initial build order would have been: scout, worker, shrine, worker, (scout), settler, settler, granary, archer, archer. Maybe add the first archer sooner if there are too many barbs. Once getting the workers up, return the warrior home for protection, and use the scout to see potential city spots. The archer is useful to get barb camps and get city quests.

For the expos, I would try to explore the dark area east of Beijing, that river seems nice with the horses, bison, and maybe citrus in the 3rd ring. If the land is good, that would be my first expo.

As I said above, that's one of the first things I'm going to do next, reveal that area to see what it has to offer.

The one you marked is also good, it can be a good city with Petra, a decent city without it. But I would plant it either one tile east of the mark, on the hill or two tiles, on the citrus. I don't think you can, since it is too close to the CS.
For the city on the hill the advantages are: 1 extra hammer and better defense for being on hill, also adding incense in the 3rd ring.
The city on the citrus has other advantages as well, it is next to a mountains so it can build observatories, it has more land since you are further away from the CS. Also it will always work the citrus so that is 1 extra gpt for the entire game (you also lose 1 gpt from not being able to improve the citrus so this is a tradeoff). But the big advantages come with Petra, it has 2 sheep in range, and one river hill. Those are 3 food 3 production tiles with Petra, you also add cow in the 3rd ring (3 food 1 production, two with stable), and various hills which will be 1 food 4 production tiles. There will be some overlap with Beijing but that is not that important. You also lose access to stone, so and also to Stoneworks.
So both spots have it's tradeoffs. I would probably chose the mountain spot.

For the 4th city I would check the area with the salt between Beijing and the American lands, maybe it's good. Another decent spot is SE of Beijing, on the tundra hill next to the mountain. You get 2 deer, stone, dies, and some river plains. Of course this all depends on other expo placement since you don't want too much overlap.

A city on the coast could help, since you can use cargo ships for internal trade routes to/from the capital. See if the coast SE of Beijing is worth settling, with some sea resources, and the deer already visible, it might make a good city.

I not sure why, but I always avoid settling on a resource, might be something psychological about not being able to improve the tile... but I completely see what you're saying. I'll think about it more once I reveal the area to the east.

Thanks for all the advice it'll make me consider a lot more things in the future.

I'll play some more turns tonight and report back on my progress and decisions.
 
My usual starting building order on continents would be something like scout, monument, shrine, workers/archers until 4 pop, then build settlers. Since worker stealing isn't as much of an option here, I'd use any spare gold i got to buy a worker or two.

Monuments aren't actually that much of a waste, most high level players build them even with tradition, more for the sake of getting through tradition asap than for the amphitheater.
 
My usual starting building order on continents would be something like scout, monument, shrine, workers/archers until 4 pop, then build settlers. Since worker stealing isn't as much of an option here, I'd use any spare gold i got to buy a worker or two.

Monuments aren't actually that much of a waste, most high level players build them even with tradition, more for the sake of getting through tradition asap than for the amphitheater.

Yes, in general a monument is good, but if you get a culture ruin fast you can skip it.


Thanks!

I've played a few more turns, here's the result:

Turns 25-50:

Spoiler :

Turn 26
Calendar finished;

Turn 27
Met Morocco (he came from the northwest)

Turn 28
Popped Wrinting from a ruin
Finished my Worker - had him work the cows while Mining finishes researching;
Started on a Shrine;

Turn 30
My Scout was attacked by a barb and died;

Turn 31
Finished Mining and started on Archery;

Turn 32
America wants to DoF, I refused since I'm thinking about taking them out;

Turn 34
Finished the Shrine and started on a Settler;

Turn 37
Finished Archery and started on Bronze Working to reveal Iron;
Also had my worker chop the forest next to my city to speed up the Settler (didn't chop the forest on the citrus because there were Barbs roaming around it);

Turn 41
Adopted Landed Elite (not sure if Monarchy would be a better pick considering my imminent expansion)

Turn 48
Decided to go with my original plan, but took your advice and Setteled on the Desert Hill by the Citrus; Already have Desert Folklore;
It seems my suspicions were correct and I am now unhappy.
Started my second city with a Shrine (should I start Granary instead?)

Turn 49
Saw a chance to steal a Worker from Colombo and took it, immediatly made peace with them;

Turn 50
The area east of my city didn't reveal anything special, but I'm still considering expanding there so I can take on America first;

I'm teching Masonary at the moment and haven't decided on what to take next, any tips?


Spoiler :

I'm thinking about putting my next City to the right by the lake (would be able to get some Iron and a few more Desert Tiles - or a bit south from my city to in the end of the river as was talked about in the thread before. What do you guys think?


Thanks again for all the feedback!
 
Moderator Action: BNW prefix added
 
Avoid falling into negative happiness. It's really bad in Civ V.
 
Avoid falling into negative happiness. It's really bad in Civ V.

Really, really important.
The general order of importance in early worker improvements is
Luxury
Stragetic
Forest Chop
Bonus

You had luxuries on the other side of the city, you could have just improved those instead of the one being menaced by barbarians. .
 
Avoid falling into negative happiness. It's really bad in Civ V.

Really, really important.
The general order of importance in early worker improvements is
Luxury
Stragetic
Forest Chop
Bonus

You had luxuries on the other side of the city, you could have just improved those instead of the one being menaced by barbarians. .

Like I suspected, I should've taken Monarchy instead of Landed Elite, I would be ok right now I think. But, in the future I'll have what you said in mind Nonevah.

Thanks guys!
 
You need to time getting your luxuries up with adding new cities. Each city will increase the unhappiness by 4 so adding a new luxury should cover you initially.

You can get away with a couple of turns of unhappiness but you shouldn't stay in unhappiness too much because of the severe penalty (75% less food, 2*unhappines % less hammers).

In cases like this, when you don't have too many unique luxuries (the expo does not add anything new, there are 2 spots that add a new unique luxury, but they are not that good), you should get Monarchy first to help you.

If the AI has 2 copies of a luxury trade it with them, do that. Try to make friends/allies with a mercantile city state, this will help you expand faster.
 
If you're willing to post the start we could see how different players approach this map - I think that is the best learning method. :) I'd play the first 60-80 turns.
 
You need to time getting your luxuries up with adding new cities. Each city will increase the unhappiness by 4 so adding a new luxury should cover you initially.

You can get away with a couple of turns of unhappiness but you shouldn't stay in unhappiness too much because of the severe penalty (75% less food, 2*unhappines % less hammers).

In cases like this, when you don't have too many unique luxuries (the expo does not add anything new, there are 2 spots that add a new unique luxury, but they are not that good), you should get Monarchy first to help you.

If the AI has 2 copies of a luxury trade it with them, do that. Try to make friends/allies with a mercantile city state, this will help you expand faster.

I've seen that timing is one of my issues. It seems I need to start thinking a couple steps ahead instead of just thinking about the most immediate future. Yeah, unhappiness really drags you down.

Only the first copy of a luxury adds happiness right? How much happiness does each unique luxury adds?

If you're willing to post the start we could see how different players approach this map - I think that is the best learning method. :) I'd play the first 60-80 turns.

I'm not completely sure that I still have the start save. Once I get home I'll check it out and share it if I still have it. But yeah, that would really be great :)
 
Only one copy for each amount of happiness. Each unique lux gives +4 base happiness. If you take protectionism in Commerce they give +6 happiness. This coincides with the cost of founding a city which is -4 happiness. This means that with each unique luxury connected to your empire you can potentially found another city. By knowing the amount of unique luxes in the area, you will have an indication of how many cities can be founded.

Happiness can also come from finding natural wonders, buildings like circus, zoo, colosseum, social policies, religion and ideology. Autocracy for example gives happiness for city strength boosters like castles.
 
Only one copy for each amount of happiness. Each unique lux gives +4 base happiness. If you take protectionism in Commerce they give +6 happiness. This coincides with the cost of founding a city which is -4 happiness. This means that with each unique luxury connected to your empire you can potentially found another city. By knowing the amount of unique luxes in the area, you will have an indication of how many cities can be founded.

Happiness can also come from finding natural wonders, buildings like circus, zoo, colosseum, social policies, religion and ideology. Autocracy for example gives happiness for city strength boosters like castles.

But remember, Pop also takes unhappy.
It's 3 unhappy per city, 1 unhappy per citizen.

Since you're playing traditoin, you want your cities to go tall, so I would advise against founding more than 4 cities.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=523371 is a very good guide.
 
Only one copy for each amount of happiness. Each unique lux gives +4 base happiness. If you take protectionism in Commerce they give +6 happiness. This coincides with the cost of founding a city which is -4 happiness. This means that with each unique luxury connected to your empire you can potentially found another city. By knowing the amount of unique luxes in the area, you will have an indication of how many cities can be founded.

Happiness can also come from finding natural wonders, buildings like circus, zoo, colosseum, social policies, religion and ideology. Autocracy for example gives happiness for city strength boosters like castles.

Never thought about the number of cities related to the amount of luxuries in the vicinity, that's a really good point. I'll keep that in mind!

But remember, Pop also takes unhappy.
It's 3 unhappy per city, 1 unhappy per citizen.

Since you're playing traditoin, you want your cities to go tall, so I would advise against founding more than 4 cities.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=523371 is a very good guide.

So, a city with 4 Population will have 7 unhappiness?
I'll read the guide. Thanks!

I still have the save and have attached it to the post. Unfortunately, even tho it's turn 1, it's after I just settled, so your city will be stuck where I settled (sorry about that).

Everyone is welcome to play some turns and report on their progress. I wont have a chance to play from now till Monday tho :( I might be able to play some turns tomorrow afternoon :dunno:
 

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For happiness you need to consider that there is local happiness/unhappiness and global happiness/unhappiness.

The local unhappiness is caused by the citizens of a city (that 1 per citizen) and is local to that city.

The global unhappiness is caused by things like city number (that 3 per city).

The total unhappiness is the sum of the local unhappiness for all cities, and global unhappiness. The same happens with happiness. If total unhappiness is greater than total happiness the empire is unhappy and you get penalties. You lose growth, production and with greater levels you get barbarian units near your cities, and even lose cities (but only after ideologies). You also lose points that are accumulated towards a Golden Age while the empire was happy.

Buildings that give happiness, give only local happiness, and the local happiness in a city can never exceed the local unhappiness. For example if you have circus and Colosseum in a city that has 3 population (3 local unhappiness), you don't get +4 happiness (+2 from circus +2 form Colosseum), but only 3. This way a city can never produce "positive" happiness, it can at most be at 0 with the local happiness/unhappiness.

Happiness that comes from luxuries and things like policies and religion (but not attached to buildings), wonders is global happiness.

This is why for each city you need at least one, preferably more, sources of unique luxuries.

There is also unhappiness caused by ideology pressure and from annexing cities without courthouses. There are also some guides on happiness if you want to read more but they may be outdated.
 

The Local Happy vs Global Happy thing is a bit hard to pick up, but don't worry, it only rarely actually has an impact (when's the last time someone's wanted to build a circus and a colosseum in a 3 pop city?).
 
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