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Ice Age environment conditions: precisely how bad it was?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Rainbowsand, Apr 5, 2010.

  1. Rainbowsand

    Rainbowsand Warlord

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    Inspired by that quote which imo utterly consists of wrongness, i therefore shall outlay my perception of FfH Ice Age (based on pedia glimpses, intro movie, Earth ice age descriptions and my sheer imagination) and then ask readers to correct me where they shall think i am wrong.

    First and foremost, there are these two major matters: "diminished to bunches of ragged hardy survivors" and supernatural origins of global cooling.

    From these i am assuming that all the plane(t)'s surface was covered with a few meters thickness layer of snow (except for places where some phenomena like a volcano or divine power was preventing it) and all remained life was subsisting on evergreen trees, snow moss and underground flora. Inevitably on the heights that snow had been compressed into glaciers which had begun their omnicrumbling crawl towards the seas. Within my estimation, this moving glaciation had covered about the two-thirds part of the land surface - except the tropic regions where it was a static snow-layer perturbed only by the raging blizzards (equatorial latitudes are known for an extremely high stormwind velocities) which were somewhat less effective in grinding and dispersing any surface features. From FfH1 its also known that Ice Age was lasting a several human generations, which if to set at 40 due hard conditions are estimate in about a half millenia or more. And then all that had very quickly thawed! The scale of this flood must have been epic and carried huge quantities of stuff into the seas, dudes! It is also considerable that the thawing glaciers have slided somewhat beyond their lying places.

    Consequences of these imo are:
    - significant flattening of plane(t)'s surface
    - total demolition of almost any pre-ice age surface structures - except for haven regions - and grinding and dispersing their remnants, except the supernaturally sturdy ones;
    - setback of most humanoid sentients to "stone age" tech level (as it is known from R. Howard writings which he had rumouredly pirated from Akashi Chronicles, that was the case on Earth) (to Valkrionn: Dark Age means such a luxuries as castles and torture dungeons) , ancient tech knowledge being preserved largely as tales and memories of the few immortals, with exact schematics being lost and have to be re-engineered from sticks and stones with help of gods and minor magicks(some FfH modmodded civs are much latter offsprings of these ragged clans, as are the Kahdi).
     
  2. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    So your essential point is that the person who wrote the official canon is wrong and you are right...

    That won't end well.
     
  3. Deon

    Deon Lt. of Mordor

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    What? I see a possibility for the discussion about Ice Age. Where did the "the person who wrote the official canon is wrong and you are right" come from?

    That's what we see if we don't play Erebus script which is non-canon :p.

    That's what we see because there're just a few remnants of ancient places.

    That's what we see, we research mining, masonry, agriculture and even writing from scratch.

    And Valkrionn didn't write official canon. What's the problem, PPQ_Purple? :p
     
  4. DirtyFinger

    DirtyFinger Prince

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    I must admit that the ice thawed awfully quickly.
    If most civilizations hid underground, then they'd come up when the living conditions on the outside got significantly better than those underground.
    yet at the start of a game we see a lush countryside.

    logically speaking only those tribes would emerge that would find the land above their specific hiding place to their liking, which would either mean that some tribes appear later - or that all tribes start somewhere near the equator.
     
  5. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    First off, I'll post the continued discussion from RifE's Ideas and Requests thread. Also, keep in mind this started as Rainbow complaining about Flavormod placing forts (meant to be ruined forts) in strategic places.

    This first bit is in response to him stating that he thinks End of Winter should be on by default.

    First off: Mulcarn was not trying to destroy Erebus. He was attempting to rule it. In my view, most of the planet would have been Tundra, not meters of snow. From the Age of Ice scenario, it's clear that there were at least small villages in existance; Man (and Elf, and Dwarf, etc) was not pushed to the brink as you seem to think. They were hard conditions, but survivable. It is only those groups which were small to begin with, living in locations that became more harsh than the norm, that radically changed; The Doviello, the Archos. Others would have been able to preserve much of their knowledge.

    As for your consequences... Going with my view of things, they are utterly wrong.

    1. Would not occur if mostly tundra. Glaciers would be limited to the northern third or so of Erebus.
    2. Would not occur, except where said Glaciers are. Structures would fall into ruin, but would not be destroyed.
    3. Would not occur. Those civs which managed to form villages would also have been able to pass knowledge on to the youth... Technically, I think the Age of Rebirth should start with most civs around KoE in the tech tree, and those like Doviello and Archos at the start. That would remove much of the gameplay, however, and so will not happen.
    4. I am quite aware of what the Dark Ages were, and what their effects were. The things you mention come from the High Dark Ages; I am referring to the early effects, before recovery began. Castles were not even thought of for several hundred years there; Big difference from the 5th century to the 10th, no? :p

    I do not write official Canon, and have not claimed to do so. At least not for FfH. ;)

    What the RifE team adds is canon only to RifE.

    Like I said, I don't particularly believe that most civs would have to. IMO it's a gameplay mechanic (and a completely valid one, that I do not wish to change), nothing more or less. That's the main reasoning for being able to construct improvements without techs; The knowledge is still there.
     
  6. Deon

    Deon Lt. of Mordor

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    I meant End Of Winter gameoption. If it's off, then it's just a rise from a barbaric state :).
    I didn't know where it came from.
     
  7. isthmus

    isthmus Warlord

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    I personally view the point where the game starts as the point where individual tribes have begun to collect together in cities and create a civilisation.
    It seems unlikely that at the moment the game starts that you've just crawled out of a cave and become a completely unique civilisation. The previous few years where a unification of tribes in the area under your particular leader would be when the world begins to thaw out, and by the time a faction has the appropriate numbers, resources and cultural unity to create your first city and begin forging a civilisation the world would have thawed out significantly. This is why I agree with Valk and think that the End of Winter option is more of a prelude to the actual game - a hypothetical situation where civilisation has developed earlier than when it should have.

    @rainbowsand:
    If you play the Age of Ice scenario (which I believe is canon to the full FFH game?) the amurites start in a valley between mountains that is protected from the snow, this suggests that there are areas that are not completely snow covered.
    Although the rest of the area in AoI is completely ice covered, this is probably due to being in the close vicinity of Mulcarn and the site that would become Letum Frigus, it's unlikely that the sheer cold seen there is mirrored globally.
    Also, prominent ancient structures that were well built would not suffer too much structural instability from a few generations worth of ice, obviously vulnerable structures and those placed in glacier-prone regions wouldn't fare too well but there would be some still standing especially if they are stabilised by magic of some sorts. It's quite likely that many people survived the age of ice by taking refuge in structures that were well known to be resilient to weather and attack from hostile tribes.
     
  8. Morlark

    Morlark Warlord

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    Yeah, this is pretty much it. I think the problem with Rainbowsand's idea that every single structure ever gets destroyed, and all of his conclusions in general, is that they all stem from this beginning assumption that every single square inch of Erebus is affected by glaciation. And needless to say, this assumption *ahem* "utterly consists of wrongness".

    Valkrionn has already quite neatly and thoroughly demolished Rainbowsand's argument, but nevertheless, I do find it quite amusing that someone would begin an argument with the phrase "Inspired by that quote which imo utterly consists of wrongness", which basically screams "I'm an arsehole" (and no, sticking an innocuous "IMO" in there is not the license to be rude that some people believe it to be), and yet manage to be so utterly wrong.
     
  9. FireBlaze

    FireBlaze King

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    There's only one real way to solve this debate....


    *Shines the Magister signal in the air*
     
  10. isthmus

    isthmus Warlord

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    Not the best way to go about putting down someone else's opinions, I'd advise against throwing a phrase like this about because it's likely to upset people.

    This is constructive, and I'm happy to discuss this point, since an exact description of how the civs survived in the AoI is missing/or not complete. The fact that culture can survive through the AoI is enough to show that was not severe enough to reduce people to surviving on moss and trees.

    The civs that are currently in FFH are either remenents of a previous civilisation (ie Balseraphs under Perpentach who was one of Kylorin's apprentices) or have developed from being an unremarkable civ to one of note from their circumstance (ie Lanun pirate culture from being near the sea or Kuriotates due to the rise of Cardith/Eurabates). Shout if I'm wrong here :confused: I guess it's interesting to wonder how much of any past civ's culture has made it through the AoI, and how it survived, which depends on how severe the AoI was. I suggest this is more of a topic for the lore subforum.

    My personal view is that the rebellion during the age of magic and after that the fall of Bhall and rise of Mulcarn was enough to put technological advancement of civilisation back to its roots, since power and knowledge was held with the elite mages of the deposed empire of patria, and Mulcarn would manipulate the condition of Erebus to be in a static state. The precept of ice also implies stasis, I'm sure Mulcarn would make effort to keep the world in a non-changing state, thus preventing technological advance.

    The fact that the ice would cause enough damage to civilisation in terms of available food and habitable area would mean that even agricultural and contruction methods would have been put back to basics would leave the people to splinter into tribal society where survival methods are used until the end of Mulcarn's reign. The thawing is where I see the tribes unifying under the major leaders in the game, and from the point of a city being formed is where the game begins.

    This is just my opinion of how things went, feel free to say something that makes more sense :crazyeye:
    EDIT:
    Just like batman!
    And yeah, Magister will know, fo'sho :)
     
  11. Emptiness

    Emptiness []

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    Rainbowsand, the Fall from Heaven Lore subforum would have been a better place to have created this thread, if it were actually a legitimate attempt to launch a discussion about FfH2 lore - but it's pretty clear that it's not. You were already in a lore discussion in the RifE ideas thread before you came here. If you can't convince Valkrionn to develop RifE the way you want, running to the main FfH2 forum to plead your case won't do any good. There's no one in authority over him that you can convince to force him to do what you want (and if there were, the RifE subforum would be the place to reach him or her). All you can do is make your case in the RifE subform and either accept the outcome or write your own modmod of RifE.
     
  12. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Well, if enough of the team could be convinced of it I'd yield to it, but fairly sure that would not happen on this subject. :lol:

    And in any case, again, best place would be the RifE forum for that; This thread should have either stayed there or gone to the Lore forum.
     
  13. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I see no reason to think that there were "several meters of snow" over everything. Canonical descriptions speak of vast tundras where the Doviello roamed.

    Technically, Erebus is a flat, infinite plane, not a globe. There is no reason that north or south need to be colder than other directions.

    If the Age of Ice is Erebus was anything like Ice Ages on Earth (or even like the clime of Antarctica), then heavy precipitation (including snowfall) would have been rare. It is not as clear in Erebus as on Earth that precipitation requires prior evaporation of water though.



    Ice doesn't mean literal frozen water, but Cold. In Erebus, the sphere of Cold is the manifestation of Nostalgia. As such, I imagine that ruins would have been left visible enough to serve as reminders of better times gone by although ruined enough to be of no practical value. Mulcarn would have wanted humans to idolize the past, to yearn to go back to how things used to be but not to have hope of returning to or surpassing that glory.




    The technological regression was likely more severe than that of the so called Dark Ages in the Middle Ages, but for most civs probably not too much worse than that of the Greek Dark Ages (which included the loss of the concept of written language). Some civs regressed far more than others, and some did not have as far to fall anyway.

    The Amurites had no real connection to Patria, and were quite primitive when Kylorin found them. He led them to be more advanced than most, but not by that much.

    The Elohim preserved the knowledge of the Age of Magic best. Some of the greatest libraries of the previous age remained intact until the next, and the people remained mostly literate. They lost control of most of the sites Sucellus had entrusted them to guard, but the hardships of the age may actually have helped them get back to their founding principles of caring for those in need.

    The Luchuirp were probably the most advanced civ in the Age of Magic, but were hard hit by the climate change and regressed greatly. They had already lost the skills needed to live underground and had to relearn them as humans and elves did. The art of crafting golems was not completely lost, but it regressed to the point that few could make them to be more than toys.

    The Age of Ice did not cause the Khazad to regress at all. However they were not the most advanced before that, as they had isolated themselves underground for centuries before that and never learned of the advanced made on the surface.


    The Ljosalfar and Svartalfar were hard hit by the cold, but there are still plenty of elves who were alive during the Age of Magic (and some from the Age of Dragons) whose skills were not hurt much by a few centuries of disuse. Additionally, Cernunnos himself dwelt with the Ljosalfar during the Ice Age and may have led them to progress instead of decline or stagnate. The Winter Court was previously more advanced than the Summer though, and probably better adapted to survival in the cold so they aren't now far behind.


    The Lanun survived the Age with ship building and sailing skills intact. (The Lanun existed before Patria and were never fully integrated into the empire; nominally they were all forced into vassalage, but they lived too far from the Patrian capital for Kylorin's authority to actually mean much. At the height of the empire's power they frequently granted refuge to enemies of the state, and overcharged the imperial armies for the service of tracking down their fugitives.) Many waterways became unnavigable, but the Aegean sea remained warm enough for maritime life to go on. The fact that the sea had become wild instead of tame when Danalin fell asleep meant the Lanun likely had to make technological advancements in order to keep their ships afloat.


    The Illians were the least advanced civ in the Age of Magic. They did not regress, but neither were they allowed to progress.


    The Bannor who stayed in Erebus regressed and became Orcs, even though their homeland stayed fairly warm. The Bannor to spent the age in hell did not really regress or progress, although their numbers were too few to build as advanced a society when they emerged. Also, the fact that these were mostly members of the nobility and priesthood from inner city of Braduk means they likely could not preserve the technical skills of the lower classes. Most Bannor of the current age are descended from scattered tribes who allied or were conquered by the real Bannor.


    The Hippus were never that advanced. (These too existed before Patria and were more like vassals than full members, but these vassals provided a large part of the empire's professional army, especially the cavalry.) They always depended on their livestock, not only horses but also sheep, cows, and goats. Some of their finest breeds died out or went completely feral, but they were able to save some of their flocks and the basic skills of animal husbandry. (The Hippus were however never one people, but a diverse group of clans with similar lifestyles. I'd be surprised if the modern clans actually be traced back very far, but there have always been some such clans in their steppes since shortly after the signing of the Compact.)



    The Calabim of the Age of Magic have no real connection to the modern Calabim except for sharing Alexis and Flauros as leaders. I like to think that these two have on more than one occasion slaughtered all their followers in order to keep the source of their power a secret. The current Calabim are descended from a tribe no more advanced than the Doviello, who made a pact with the vampires when it seemed there was no way to survive without their superhuman strength and senses to help hunt Mammoth. The leaders however likely remember the Age of Magic and even much of the Age of Dragons quite well and can make their civ advanced quite quickly if they so desire. Flauros, at least before the rise of Decius, however seemed to think that staying small and seeming primitive on the surface was a better defense that projecting strength.


    I'm still unclear as to whether Perpentach was broken out of the Palus during the Age of magic, Age of ice, or Age of Rebirth. I prefer the last of these, Nikis-knight prefers the former. In my scenario: the Age of Magic Balseraph empire was what remained of Patrian after Kylorin abandoned it and led other regions to rebel. Laroth, Gatrius, et alii may have been important leaders here, but as Kylorin's adopted son Henri Ghouls would have been seen as the heir apparent and would take the throne if it were not given to him freely. He was likely the strongest of them all, and could dominate the minds of any and all who opposed him. He may well have eventually dominated the minds even of his most loyal subjects, simply to make the empire run more efficiently. He was before his mental barriers where broken a very cruel, somber, calculating man who did not understand the concept of mercy. The old Balseraph empire would have been a gloomy place where no one would dare tell a joke. It was only after centuries of insanity that Perpantach came to enjoy his madness. It may also be that he could only move his mind, and not his soul, into his new hosts, making The Momus a much more jolly character than the emperor of old. In Nikis-Knight's scenario Perpantach was not imprisoned for very long, but escaped in time to found his carnival kingdom before the Fire Rain and lead it though the Age of Ice intact. Either way, Perpentach's mind contains the greatest minds in history whom he could call upon to recreate nearly any advance of prior ages if he so desires. I imagine his copy of Gatrius is an important adviser; the Master of Metamagic is almost by definition has the greatest memory in Erebus and knows far more obscure lore even than I do. Gastrius also seems to be perhaps the most cooperative mind within a mind. Of course, little Henri may not have the will to listen to him and at times would prefer more entertaining but far less useful advisers. The Balseraphs are likely not the most advanced civ simply because Perpentach doesn't care enough about advancement.
     
  14. Azhral

    Azhral Let's get Tactical!

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    Thy Lord hath spoken! Gape thy mouths in awe at his all-encompassing glory!
     
  15. apenpaap

    apenpaap Tsar of all the Internets

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    What about the Malakim, Grigori, Sidar, and Sheaim?
     
  16. Deon

    Deon Lt. of Mordor

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    Sheaim appeared after the age of ice. They were nothing before. Read some pedia :p.
     
  17. apenpaap

    apenpaap Tsar of all the Internets

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    In the pedia it says something similar for the Amurites and Kuriotates, IIRC, and yet MC mentioned how they formed in the age of ice.
     
  18. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    The Malakim were an unimportant collection of tribes until Varn united them under the Empyrean.

    The Grigori would have been around even in Age of Magic I believe; Cassiel rebelled against his god at the signing of the compact, so at the very beginning of that age.

    Sidar I'm not sure of; But I believe they learned how to become shades using a book stolen from the Once Elves, so around the same time as Varn united the Malakim. Places them in the Age of Rebirth.

    Sheaim are completely AoR. Did not exist before that.

    Amurites were formed in the Age of Ice, yes, not the Age of Rebirth. Kuriotates, I'm not sure but would lean towards AoR.
     
  19. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    The Malakim tribes have existed since the Age of Magic, but these scattered groups of nomads did not unite until Varn Gossam unified them in the faith that would grow into the Empyrean. I think their ancestors had once worshiped Lugus, but that the vampires had exterminated his religion before the Age of Ice began. Come to think of it, I think the land of Myrh is always described as having been a desert, even in previous ages. This may be one place left relatively untouched by the Age of Ice. Of course, it could have been a cold dry place for a while instead of a hot one.


    Cassiel helped care for the victims of the Age of Ice as he had previously helped care for the victims of the Godswar. He has always been more of a philosopher than a real leader though. During the Age of Ice Cassiel found the first piece of the Godslayer, and hired a Lanun crew to carry it towards Letum Frigus in hopes of helping some mortal hero reforge it to slay the god. Unfortunately this piece was lost for a time when Malus's ship became stranded and the crew resorted to cannibalism. When in AoI Kylorin selects the symbol Cassiel, the mammoth, she tells him that their stubbornness is not suitable in such a harsh age. I tend to think that Cassiel's followers did not survive the age, at least not with significant numbers, and that he had to start the Grigori anew. The Grigori are a racially diverse people formed mostly by immigrants who fled there from more oppressive regimes seeking freedom of (and especially from) religion.



    Sandalphon was a guest at the Library of Barathrum before Auric caused the sun to break through the Shadowed Vale and unite the Shadow Rift with Erebus rather than being a seperate liminal plane. He found the Books of Laroth among the many posthumously completed masterpieces which the once Elves brought with them out of the Underworld. He made a copy of this text and took it back to his people. We don't know for how long, but Rathaus Denmora was already a shade when he too was accepted into the library, with the same group that included Talia Gossam. While there he studied the tomes in more depth and corrected some errors in Sandalphon's copy. The Once Elves seem to have forgotten they ever let him in. While Talia was a prisoner he was free, but in hiding, sneaking around looking for an excuse to enter the Otherworld itself. He used the children from Brigdarrow as a distraction to pass to the other side, and it was his return that provided Auric with just enough of a delay to finish channeling the Sun to break the barrier. I'm not sure the original Books of Laroth ever left the Well of Shadows.



    The Sheaim are a completely new civ, although their leaders are ancient. Os-Gabella is older than all archangels and one god, but until fairly recently preferred to distance herself from other humans rather then spend enough time with them to turn a society into a tool aide in her suicide. Tebryn Arbandi, formerly the Age of Magic Archmage Ram, was only recently resurrected in order to destroy the world. I think the same can be said of Malchiavic, although I'm less sure. There isn't much I can share about Gossea the Dwindling, but she is minor yet extremely important character in the Ashes of Brigdarrow. We don't really know anything about Averax other than that he is half demon.




    At one point Kael made the Kuriotates a faction of the Patrian civil war, but I convinced him to change that. The Creation civ sphere is now canonically the youngest of all civs, probably not emerging until long after the thaw.
     
  20. FireBlaze

    FireBlaze King

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    Speaking of Ashes, how is work progressing on that?
     

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