Markus Ramikin
Justicar
I see. Oh well, at least this means your base won't kill itself on the next Antaran BB.
[MoO] ICEMOD: mod design, race design, strategies
- Thread starter Rocco.40
- Start date
Markus Ramikin
Justicar
Meh, didn't mean to post twice in a row. How do I delete a post here...
Dukinson
Warlord
Repulsive sucks compared to being able to "interface" with the AI's, perhaps it should be more than -9 negative.
[/QUOTE]
Where oh where have I heard this before... hm. It will come to me.
I recently played a game with diplomatically with charismatic after several years of never using diplomacy. I was curious what it was like with this mod. While it was still all too easy to manipulate the computer while having essentially no fleet, low tech, and poor starting worlds, I did happen to notice how you changed the personalities of the AI. They were all ruthless and xenophobic, just like me! They actually attacked eachother if they could defeat and empire, and grew larger. Very nice. I was able to butter up difficult races with tribute treaties and had huge trade and non aggression pacts with everyone. I also got Karg the mighty pirate captain, which was fun. I haven't seen him in years. I think he's probably the most powerful ship captain in the game combat-wise.
As for repulsive, I know you're trying to conserve certain negative pick combos but it doesn't need to be so. Now that you've changed the negatives to multiples of 3, it's easy to get the max negatives. You could go -spying and ship defense or feudal with repulsive, you don't have to go -lowg or -pop growth. It really should be at least -12 for repulsive. That's not even equivalent to the -6 picks in vanilla, really closer to -13 when converted for max 45 picks. -12 would be good enough in my humble opinion.
It should be noted as I spoke about a great captain like Karg, that repulsive makes it harder to get good leaders. This has another effect. The other players are going to scoup up all the good leaders before you, even though you're only supposed to have a reduced chance to get good and legendary heros. So rather than "twice as long" for hero recruitment or whatever it is, it's more like "you will never see the best heroes because your enemies will employ them first and you will be forced to fight them in combat". It's a big part of repulsive. Powerful colony leaders can really proffer a huge boost to eco development as well. I have the monkey farmer. Always the monkey farmer. Oh how I loath you monkey farmer!
About multiples of 3 negatives. This is interesting. Immediately I was both pleased and worried. Pleased in now it made it easy to get the -21 picks I always aim for. Worried in that they may not be be easily balanced when negative picks have to follow a multiple of 3. Also, why should I always need to have -21 picks? Maybe there are some races where I just can't figure it out and only get -20 or -19. I do tend to like it more than not and I think it's a clever change to open more appealing combinations of negative picks as most players are going to go with the combo that gets them max negatives and tend to ignore others.
[/QUOTE]
Where oh where have I heard this before... hm. It will come to me.
I recently played a game with diplomatically with charismatic after several years of never using diplomacy. I was curious what it was like with this mod. While it was still all too easy to manipulate the computer while having essentially no fleet, low tech, and poor starting worlds, I did happen to notice how you changed the personalities of the AI. They were all ruthless and xenophobic, just like me! They actually attacked eachother if they could defeat and empire, and grew larger. Very nice. I was able to butter up difficult races with tribute treaties and had huge trade and non aggression pacts with everyone. I also got Karg the mighty pirate captain, which was fun. I haven't seen him in years. I think he's probably the most powerful ship captain in the game combat-wise.
As for repulsive, I know you're trying to conserve certain negative pick combos but it doesn't need to be so. Now that you've changed the negatives to multiples of 3, it's easy to get the max negatives. You could go -spying and ship defense or feudal with repulsive, you don't have to go -lowg or -pop growth. It really should be at least -12 for repulsive. That's not even equivalent to the -6 picks in vanilla, really closer to -13 when converted for max 45 picks. -12 would be good enough in my humble opinion.
It should be noted as I spoke about a great captain like Karg, that repulsive makes it harder to get good leaders. This has another effect. The other players are going to scoup up all the good leaders before you, even though you're only supposed to have a reduced chance to get good and legendary heros. So rather than "twice as long" for hero recruitment or whatever it is, it's more like "you will never see the best heroes because your enemies will employ them first and you will be forced to fight them in combat". It's a big part of repulsive. Powerful colony leaders can really proffer a huge boost to eco development as well. I have the monkey farmer. Always the monkey farmer. Oh how I loath you monkey farmer!
About multiples of 3 negatives. This is interesting. Immediately I was both pleased and worried. Pleased in now it made it easy to get the -21 picks I always aim for. Worried in that they may not be be easily balanced when negative picks have to follow a multiple of 3. Also, why should I always need to have -21 picks? Maybe there are some races where I just can't figure it out and only get -20 or -19. I do tend to like it more than not and I think it's a clever change to open more appealing combinations of negative picks as most players are going to go with the combo that gets them max negatives and tend to ignore others.
Markus Ramikin
Justicar
Just gonna register my opinion that the negative pick change was good. Yes, it's fine if starting the game is actually convenient. 
_____________________________
War report!
I am reverting my changes for now: Creative costs 14 again, and Orion gives guaranteed Death Ray. I feel like I'm a much stronger player than I was when I first encountered this mod, and I wanna give Cre=14 a fair shake.
That said, I'm having trouble constructing a race with it that doesn't look like it sucks. After quicktesting several ideas, gonna go with the obvious after all:
DemCreAqu,RichArty
Sadly, it wastes 1 pick; at Cre=13 I could take Large HW, which would be nice because LowG means homeworld will be my main powerbase for a good while, and it would also reduce pollution. But oh well. Taking +Sci instead of Arty would slow down my start even more awfully than it's gonna be...
Tentative game plan: hopefully discover 1 good planet for food/research and 1 good planet for production, so I can have two planets producing BBs for the first war, then conquer something Subterranean with +P and +Growth.
Turn 0: Let's begin!
"Humanity has always looked skyward for its true path..."
Spawned two systems down from the northwest corner. Very nice location, I can already tell.
3 lifeless rocks in my system. Sold Star Base, gonna colonize one of them.
Turn 19:
Colonised one of the dead rocks and built a factory. Doing Housing. Not colonizing the others yet.
Turn 45:
Hired Jarred for ships and Diplomacy; a bit earlier got Crassis (Labor) for Sol.
Turn 51: First contact
Trilarians pretty close to the south. Pacifistic. Goooood. Got a trade treaty.
There is a Abundant Large Tundra to the north - I definitely want it. There is also a Splinter Colony and a Rich Terra under a Hydra to the east: I want those even more! At least I can't complain about a bad neighbourhood...
Turn 61:
Hired Ralleia, who is Famous and Diplomat. Quite a find!
Got remaining treaties with Trilarians. Also told them to stop spying. They obeyed like the Ithorians they are.
Crystal guarding a Rich Gaia to the northeast. Corner location, Planets, neighbours, leaders, research dice rolls... it's like the game is trying to tell me, "You had to waste 14 picks for this BS, here, have some good luck to make up for it."
Turn 70: I have Kher for trade revenue, and this turn I got Vlarr, for Megawealth. Still no one with Ordnance.
Not researching Atmospheric Renewer yet. Pollution Processor is good enough for colonisation if I'm not doing a fast tech gambit (and I can't afford to with this weak race), and Iridium Fuel Cells typically trigger a bunch of contacts, which would force me to build spies.
All 3 dead rocks in home system colonized and making pop. First colony ship due on turn 74.
Turn 75: Decision
18 Tundra or 14 Ocean?
Gonna go with Ocean. Will be a food planet, to relieve the burden from the homeworld, and a builder of things like transports and spies.
Repulsive Silicoids to the southeast. Okay, finally SOME (possibility of) pressure.
Turn 89: Third Contact
Aggressive Bulrathi to the northeast, a lot closer than the Silicoids: two systems away in fact, right across the Crystal system.
Managed to get a research treaty. Still, gonna build some frigates. Gonna need them soon anyway.
The Ocean planet has been colonised and is now full.
Turn 112:
Got all treaties with Bulrathi. Colonised the Tundra and immediately sent a lot of pop there. Next stop: the two monster planets.
Unless the Silicoids wake up, I may get enough of an advantage just from colonising that I'll skip the early war.
Turn 127:
Beat the Crystal and colonised the Rich Gaia. With Gold Deposits.
Before I could do the same unto the Hydra, Hypespace Flux hit. Good thing it doesn't stop the colonists I've been growing from their mass migration to the new planet.
I now have 3 full planets, 3 baby factories, and the Gaia. Lookin' good.
Cassandra joined. That's quite a Diplomatic Corps I got.
Turn 141:
Flux gone, Meklar contact. Aggressive too. Still managed that research treaty.
Turn 146:
Killed the Hydra, grabbed the last two good planents around. 9 out of 15 Frigates survived. Gonna start producing BBs now as well as colonizing the rest of the free space around.
Got contact with most AIs. What is it with Gnolans and their unwillingness to trade! Every frikin' game. They're supposed to be Master Traders! My 3 Diplomats and a tech shower made no difference.
Turn 175: OK, this is silly. I basically won the game.
Nothing much has been happening, aside from a lot of population growth. 23 planets, many of them good, terraforming underway on some. I'm above everyone in pop and tech, and tied in buildings with Bulrathi. Fleet is upper middle of the pack. I'm starting to produce that telltale 1k+ research that means I'm soon going to be making beam ships.
As a test of the race, this fell short. I wasn't challenged at any point, got lucky breaks when I needed them, and STILL my asthmatic race felt like wheezing along and barely managing to make something out of the opportunities presented, due to the anemic economic power.
Gonna abandon this and try once or twice more, until I get a more representative and less lucky start.
_____________________________
War report!
I am reverting my changes for now: Creative costs 14 again, and Orion gives guaranteed Death Ray. I feel like I'm a much stronger player than I was when I first encountered this mod, and I wanna give Cre=14 a fair shake.
That said, I'm having trouble constructing a race with it that doesn't look like it sucks. After quicktesting several ideas, gonna go with the obvious after all:
DemCreAqu,RichArty
Sadly, it wastes 1 pick; at Cre=13 I could take Large HW, which would be nice because LowG means homeworld will be my main powerbase for a good while, and it would also reduce pollution. But oh well. Taking +Sci instead of Arty would slow down my start even more awfully than it's gonna be...
Tentative game plan: hopefully discover 1 good planet for food/research and 1 good planet for production, so I can have two planets producing BBs for the first war, then conquer something Subterranean with +P and +Growth.
Turn 0: Let's begin!
"Humanity has always looked skyward for its true path..."
Spawned two systems down from the northwest corner. Very nice location, I can already tell.
3 lifeless rocks in my system. Sold Star Base, gonna colonize one of them.
Turn 19:
Colonised one of the dead rocks and built a factory. Doing Housing. Not colonizing the others yet.
Turn 45:
Hired Jarred for ships and Diplomacy; a bit earlier got Crassis (Labor) for Sol.
Turn 51: First contact
Trilarians pretty close to the south. Pacifistic. Goooood. Got a trade treaty.
There is a Abundant Large Tundra to the north - I definitely want it. There is also a Splinter Colony and a Rich Terra under a Hydra to the east: I want those even more! At least I can't complain about a bad neighbourhood...
Turn 61:
Hired Ralleia, who is Famous and Diplomat. Quite a find!
Got remaining treaties with Trilarians. Also told them to stop spying. They obeyed like the Ithorians they are.
Crystal guarding a Rich Gaia to the northeast. Corner location, Planets, neighbours, leaders, research dice rolls... it's like the game is trying to tell me, "You had to waste 14 picks for this BS, here, have some good luck to make up for it."
Turn 70: I have Kher for trade revenue, and this turn I got Vlarr, for Megawealth. Still no one with Ordnance.
Not researching Atmospheric Renewer yet. Pollution Processor is good enough for colonisation if I'm not doing a fast tech gambit (and I can't afford to with this weak race), and Iridium Fuel Cells typically trigger a bunch of contacts, which would force me to build spies.
All 3 dead rocks in home system colonized and making pop. First colony ship due on turn 74.
Turn 75: Decision
18 Tundra or 14 Ocean?
Gonna go with Ocean. Will be a food planet, to relieve the burden from the homeworld, and a builder of things like transports and spies.
Repulsive Silicoids to the southeast. Okay, finally SOME (possibility of) pressure.
Turn 89: Third Contact
Aggressive Bulrathi to the northeast, a lot closer than the Silicoids: two systems away in fact, right across the Crystal system.
Managed to get a research treaty. Still, gonna build some frigates. Gonna need them soon anyway.
The Ocean planet has been colonised and is now full.
Turn 112:
Got all treaties with Bulrathi. Colonised the Tundra and immediately sent a lot of pop there. Next stop: the two monster planets.
Unless the Silicoids wake up, I may get enough of an advantage just from colonising that I'll skip the early war.
Turn 127:
Beat the Crystal and colonised the Rich Gaia. With Gold Deposits.
Before I could do the same unto the Hydra, Hypespace Flux hit. Good thing it doesn't stop the colonists I've been growing from their mass migration to the new planet.
I now have 3 full planets, 3 baby factories, and the Gaia. Lookin' good.
Cassandra joined. That's quite a Diplomatic Corps I got.
Turn 141:
Flux gone, Meklar contact. Aggressive too. Still managed that research treaty.
Turn 146:
Killed the Hydra, grabbed the last two good planents around. 9 out of 15 Frigates survived. Gonna start producing BBs now as well as colonizing the rest of the free space around.
Got contact with most AIs. What is it with Gnolans and their unwillingness to trade! Every frikin' game. They're supposed to be Master Traders! My 3 Diplomats and a tech shower made no difference.
Turn 175: OK, this is silly. I basically won the game.
Nothing much has been happening, aside from a lot of population growth. 23 planets, many of them good, terraforming underway on some. I'm above everyone in pop and tech, and tied in buildings with Bulrathi. Fleet is upper middle of the pack. I'm starting to produce that telltale 1k+ research that means I'm soon going to be making beam ships.
As a test of the race, this fell short. I wasn't challenged at any point, got lucky breaks when I needed them, and STILL my asthmatic race felt like wheezing along and barely managing to make something out of the opportunities presented, due to the anemic economic power.
Gonna abandon this and try once or twice more, until I get a more representative and less lucky start.
neilkaz
King
@ Markus,
Nice easy game for you. You've been getting great starts and locations. I think not being Repulsive is helping greatly. As I may end up loosing that walk through game. OK I botched the wars somewhat, as I never realized the AI's could have so much tech.
If I had to win a game of IceX to save my life I think I'd find 9 negs other than Repulsive.
Oh and you may wish to experiment with starts for this race.
Another possibility is to dump Aqua for Food+1 and Res+1. However, Aqua planets are more common now in v10n so.......
Nice easy game for you. You've been getting great starts and locations. I think not being Repulsive is helping greatly. As I may end up loosing that walk through game. OK I botched the wars somewhat, as I never realized the AI's could have so much tech.
If I had to win a game of IceX to save my life I think I'd find 9 negs other than Repulsive.
Oh and you may wish to experiment with starts for this race.
Another possibility is to dump Aqua for Food+1 and Res+1. However, Aqua planets are more common now in v10n so.......
Dukinson
Warlord
Rocco.40 said:
Oh my god. How did I miss this? It's only been a week... and it's already back to 1! How dare you toy with me sir? I demand a download link for 10m! You surely enjoy watering down a once great ability. That's it isn't it? You rose it to 2 so you could bring it back down to 1 for the sheer thrill of it!
![[pissed]](/images/smilies/pissed.gif "Pissed [pissed]")
Markus Ramikin
Justicar
I am not experiencing Shadenfreude at all. *innocentlook*
Yeah, like I said, I quicktested a bunch of starts, with aqua, sub, and none. Tried +1F +1R as well, and sure, the very start is a bit faster. But when you don't have Aqua and you don't have Large, you get a relatively small world. This, I feel, wastes the power of Rich and Artefacts (especially Rich, once I start colonizing, building spies and ships and freighters - Artefacts seem to do more before the pop max is reached) and of the in-system housing colonies.
It's really amazing how every added pick synergises with everything else. For example Large is only 2 picks, but it gives room for pop which makes use of Rich and Artefacts, it reduces pollution so that you can build those early CBs faster, which in turn leads to earlier start on teching and on pop growth...
Wonderful game.
Markus Ramikin
Justicar
Here you go.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20846822/temp/ICEMOD_v10m.zip
This link will self destruct in, oh, a few hundred thousand seconds
Dukinson
Warlord
Here you go.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20846822/temp/ICEMOD_v10m.zip
This link will self destruct in, oh, a few hundred thousand seconds
Why, thankyou my good man. However, you do realize you've made an enemy of Rocco. He tried so hard to not let 2 command point warlord fall into my hands. Now it is done, and at 6 picks! I mean no one started with warlord but at 6 it's a steal! I will never update this version... ever.
I'm sure Rocco is hiring Dutch super agents to infiltrate my home and confiscate my tablet as we speak.
Markus Ramikin
Justicar
Oh, that's done already, by now I've beaten back two commando teams bent on taking away my hex editor and resetting my Creative to 14.
(Feel free to chime in on THAT debate, if you've been paying attention
).
Markus Ramikin
Justicar
Leader report
[picture of ugly xeno face]
[espionage sabotage hide]
Emperor Rocco
* creativophobic
* killjoy
Cough, sorry, was busy typing something, what was that you said? I play too much moo? What EVER gave you that idea?
[picture of ugly xeno face]
[espionage sabotage hide]
Emperor Rocco
* creativophobic
* killjoy
Cough, sorry, was busy typing something, what was that you said? I play too much moo? What EVER gave you that idea?
Dukinson
Warlord
If you would be so kind, Markus, I could use 10m Icecold exe as well. This will reduce your relations with Rocco to "Discord".
Rocco.40
King
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2015
- Messages
- 652
Dukinson
Warlord
Mwahahah, I mean... thankyou. I assumed you had destroyed all copies of a version that would dare to have warlord at 2 command points for 6 picks. I'd have taken it at 7 or 8 but that's because I am a warlord and ****oo for command points.
*Edit*
I just finished monkeying with your picks in pickhack. Big improvements! hahah...
Repulsive -15
Poor HW -6
1/2 Food -9
Ship Defense -3,3,6
Ship Attack -3,3,6
Warlord 7 with 2 cps
Ofcourse you knew I'd alter Warlord but I'll let your mind boggle for awhile before I explain the other "blasphemies" I've committed with your Mod.
*Edit*
I just finished monkeying with your picks in pickhack. Big improvements! hahah...
Repulsive -15
Poor HW -6
1/2 Food -9
Ship Defense -3,3,6
Ship Attack -3,3,6
Warlord 7 with 2 cps
Ofcourse you knew I'd alter Warlord but I'll let your mind boggle for awhile before I explain the other "blasphemies" I've committed with your Mod.
Markus Ramikin
Justicar
What do Icecoldx and IceGM3x do exactly? I understand Icecold decreases the number of planets, but the other one isn't explained. Are both exactly the same as the current Icemodx, with all the latest tweaks, so the map changes are the only difference?
Rocco.40
King
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2015
- Messages
- 652
Both are exactly the same as current icemod version.
(which means if you play a map mod and download a new ice, then you also need to download the updated map mod)
Yes, Cold decreases the # planets and of all systems that have satellites (= planet, gas, or asteroid), 50% of those have only 1 satellite.
GM3 is Goodmap3, was made by Siron many years ago and is still quite popular for multiplayer, but can be used for SP as well offcourse. All star systems have 3 satellites and are only of category 3, which dramatically improves the quality of the planets:
Each galaxy is built of four categories of systems:
1 Toxic, Radiated, Barren, Desert
2 Toxic, Radiated, Barren, Desert, Tundra
3 Toxic, Radiated, Barren, Desert, Tundra, Ocean, Swamp, Arid, Terran, Gaia
4 Toxic, Barren, Tundra, Ocean
Markus Ramikin
Justicar
Thanks.
I might try Cold some time, then. Might be a nice change from all those gazillion planets in Icemod. Though with my racial preferences, a less dense galaxy will be easier for me, not something I want...
________________________
War report!
GAME 2
Turn 0-51: Unimportant Stuff
Turn 52:
Haha, Anomaly in Sol. Lasted until turn 68. This isn't what I had in mind when I asked for less lucky and more representative...
Normally I would still play just to find out how much this crippled me, but this is too, ahem, anomalous, to serve as a good test of Cre=14.
GAME 3
Turn 0: Spawned on the East edge.
Only one Poor Barren planet in system.
Turn 48: Gnol contact northwards. Erratic means they're gonna be a pain in the ass as usual.
Hired Jarred, got a trade treaty (no techs gifted), and on the next turn told them to stop spying.
Turn 64: Hired Torg to up production on the HW.
Turn 71: Mrsshan contact across a wormhole, across the galaxy in the northwest corner. Ruthless personality. Offered them Scout Labs and Dauntless and got a trade treaty. This works for now.
Turn 74: First colony ship produced.
I only had one Poor housing colony, so unlike most earlier games I barely managed to fill the HW and I have no spare pop waiting.
This will either delay me because of rushing to housing colony bases in the first system I colonize, or I can research Cloning. Making a save game in case I want to re-test whichever option I didn't pick, but for now going with Cloning. It's only a few turns with my Democracy, Artefacts, Research Lab and Supercomputer (Yes, I built that before colonising. There's a method to my madness.)
Good planets in neighbourhood:
- Mirak: Large Rich Terra Natives (22), guarded by a Dragon
- Orbis: Huge Poor Ocean Natives (27)
- Proclus: Tiny Rich Ocean (9)
- Tindalos: Large Ocean (22)
This is nice, but they're all towards the center of the galaxy, so I probably won't get them all. No safe corner like last time...
Gonna colonize one of the unguarded Oceans, get cloning, then get the Rich Terra. After that, use the increased production base to either colonize everything else or switch to war mode.
Turn 77: Trilaran contact.
Crap, they're Erratic, Repulsive and Creative. Neighbourhood property values just dropped a lot.
Crap, they got Tindalos, the Large Ocean I was 2 turns from taking. I'm gonna get the Huge Poor instead and turn it into a research/food base.
Researched Cloning, already stored the production for it. Let the expansion begin!
Turn 79: Ailis joined. This is where I noticed that I forgot to put Torg to work.
Turn 88: Took a delay to research Atmospheric Renewer, for mirv nukes and for faster everything.
Explored 2 Trilaran worlds, they have nice Terran and Ocean planets that I want. I've rarely fought an early war against a Creative opponent, so this will be interesting.
Mrrshans stole... I clicked past what technology. I checked, they are indeed spying, so told them to stop.
Trilarans are spying too, so could have been them framing Mrsshans.
Trilaran's are getting increasingly hostile. If this "saying hello" thing does anything, I couldn't tell. (Will have to test properly at some point. I'll honestly be a little surprised if it isn't a superstition.)
Full treaties with the other two races, at least.
89: Trilarans steal Merculite. Got Atmo built, now I can build spies with no pollution.
92: War imminent!
Trilaran destroyer and two transports heading for my Huge Poor Ocean. Good thing I was halfway with a Fighter Base!
All righty then. Purge the Xenos.
Recap: I have Homeworld, 1 baby factory and the Poor ocean. And I got those Cloning Plants on all 3, so the Poor will get filled with scientists fast while the HW builds ships.
97: Produced a couple frigates and cleared the skies on my blockaded planet. Wow, so there is a way to remove Natives - they can die during starvation. Sad.
99: The Scout I had blocking Trilar died to a single mass driver salvo. This makes me feel that my decision to rebuild my SB and go for a Battleship instead of spamming Frigates was the right one... hopefully the 5 Frigates I built can hold the fort for now.
4 spies vs 1 and I am still losing technologies. I need to wipe these guys out.
114: BB built. Researched Ion Drives for great justice.
As usual, 20 Nukes 2x with all mods, Bpods, AugEngines and BattleScanner, Class 1 Shield. I suppose I could have more nukes if I ditched shield/bscanner and maybe augs, but I am not Production and I can't afford losses. Not gonna die to a stray ion cannon. Trilarans don't have Zortium yet, so we'll see if this is enough.
119: The great Battle of Tindalos! Very, very close.
My BB and 5 Frigates vs an obviously emergency-built Star Base. I fired everything at the SB and pulled away to avoid their missiles. The SB survived with like... 1 hitpoint or something. I didn't check exactly, just looking at the structure bar. So I withdrew the BB, and had the surviving 4 Frigates (1 died to Mass Driver already) run for the Star Base. They could actually outrun the Pulson Missiles coming my way! That's fun. Well, 2 more Frigates died to Mass Drivers by the time I got range for Boarding action. Boarding action did nothing, but my Frigates dying caused an explosion that took out the Star Base.
I guess further conquests are on hold until I get a second BB. Also, 5 Frigates mean 10 Nukes 2x, so having 27 instead of 20 on the BB wouldn't help me now.
121: Returned and conquered Tindalos. Good thing it was a 1-turn hop from the next system with my Navigator Jarred. I think (correct me?) that this is the only case where AI won't build a Star Base out of nothing, as opposed to when there's a fleet of yours incoming taking 2 or more turns.
This put me in contact with Aggressive Sakkra and Repulsive Silicoids. Trade treaty with Sakkra (no techs gifted).
Sakkra could trade me Soil Enrichment, which would be nice but they want Zortium Armor. They could then trade it to Trilarans, so not sure if it's worth the risk of needing 4 instead of 2 BBs to get anywhere. I only have 1 production planet, after all. Gonna decline.
125: Fighter Garrison withOUT bombers defended me against a BB and DD. Rocco, don't down bombers. Clearly they aren't the only thing responsible for Fighter Garrison being great.
I put my fleet on an empty system close enough to the next Trilarian planet for a 1-turn jump. Still had a Star Base when I arrived. But maybe it had it already and I just couldn't see it due to not having ships in the system.
Also on the same turn, my ambassador was caught assassinatin' people in the Sakkra empire. Fortunately I already have my foot in the door (trade treaty).
A few turns later I got the research treaty too. Gnolams and Mrrshans have all treaties, Silicoid and Trilarans are Repulsive, things are going about as well as they could.
Should I research Warp Dissipator and have an Interdictor Cruiser?
132: Conquered the next planet, Tristar. Next stop: Trilar, the homeword. The planet on the other end of their empire is Trax. Something about Trilarans and T-named worlds?
Trilarans still have only Tritanium Armor, so 2 BBs crushed a Star Base. But their Mass Drivers are now backed by Rangemaster. That kinda hurts. Good things I didn't waste more production on small ships.
134: Arrived on Trilar. One thing you gotta give this Imp 3 Trilaran race:they sure aren't capable of producing fleets(*). Their entire fleet is waiting for me, and it's 1 Cruiser and 2 Destroyers.
(*) edit: that was unfair, actually. I forgot I had already inflicted losses almost equal to my own fleet. At this stage of the game no race has ever done significantly more.
Still, first attacked the Base-less 3-pop Toxic, for a foothold, just in case they get Warp Dissipators in the last turn and I need to destroy the Star Base and run. After that gonna go for the Trilaran Homeworld. The crappy Toxic will still serve as a baby factory, which this empire badly needs - the Trilaran planets had to be bombed down before taking.
Destroyed the 2 DDs, Cruiser fled.
Looted Pleasure Dome. Great!
This also brought me in contact with Psilons. Pacifistic Technologists. My brothers, welcome, let us uncover the secrets of the Universe together! Yep, they agreed to a research treaty, and trade as well.
Took the chance to get the last non-agg treaties with whoever I could, and told everyone to stop spying. Man, I love when that works. Do they ever declare war for that demand? Then, since for some reasons the Repulsives weren't spying on me to begin with (right now, anyway) I switched all my spies to Trilarans to see if that does anything before I wipe them out.
137: Fought a Cruiser and Star Base at Trilar homeworld. Destroyed Cruiser. ECM and anti-missile beam fire protected the Star Base.
Spies stole EMG. Not important, but I have too little experience with spying, so I'm happy.
138: Trilar conquered. One system left, and I can finally go get that Dragon.
Gotta focus on faking productivity, so breaking off here.
I might try Cold some time, then. Might be a nice change from all those gazillion planets in Icemod. Though with my racial preferences, a less dense galaxy will be easier for me, not something I want...
________________________
War report!
GAME 2
Turn 0-51: Unimportant Stuff
Turn 52:
Haha, Anomaly in Sol. Lasted until turn 68. This isn't what I had in mind when I asked for less lucky and more representative...
Normally I would still play just to find out how much this crippled me, but this is too, ahem, anomalous, to serve as a good test of Cre=14.
GAME 3
Turn 0: Spawned on the East edge.
Only one Poor Barren planet in system.
Turn 48: Gnol contact northwards. Erratic means they're gonna be a pain in the ass as usual.
Hired Jarred, got a trade treaty (no techs gifted), and on the next turn told them to stop spying.
Turn 64: Hired Torg to up production on the HW.
Turn 71: Mrsshan contact across a wormhole, across the galaxy in the northwest corner. Ruthless personality. Offered them Scout Labs and Dauntless and got a trade treaty. This works for now.
Turn 74: First colony ship produced.
I only had one Poor housing colony, so unlike most earlier games I barely managed to fill the HW and I have no spare pop waiting.
This will either delay me because of rushing to housing colony bases in the first system I colonize, or I can research Cloning. Making a save game in case I want to re-test whichever option I didn't pick, but for now going with Cloning. It's only a few turns with my Democracy, Artefacts, Research Lab and Supercomputer (Yes, I built that before colonising. There's a method to my madness.)
Good planets in neighbourhood:
- Mirak: Large Rich Terra Natives (22), guarded by a Dragon
- Orbis: Huge Poor Ocean Natives (27)
- Proclus: Tiny Rich Ocean (9)
- Tindalos: Large Ocean (22)
This is nice, but they're all towards the center of the galaxy, so I probably won't get them all. No safe corner like last time...
Gonna colonize one of the unguarded Oceans, get cloning, then get the Rich Terra. After that, use the increased production base to either colonize everything else or switch to war mode.
Turn 77: Trilaran contact.
Crap, they're Erratic, Repulsive and Creative. Neighbourhood property values just dropped a lot.
Crap, they got Tindalos, the Large Ocean I was 2 turns from taking. I'm gonna get the Huge Poor instead and turn it into a research/food base.
Researched Cloning, already stored the production for it. Let the expansion begin!
Turn 79: Ailis joined. This is where I noticed that I forgot to put Torg to work.
Spoiler :
Turn 88: Took a delay to research Atmospheric Renewer, for mirv nukes and for faster everything.
Explored 2 Trilaran worlds, they have nice Terran and Ocean planets that I want. I've rarely fought an early war against a Creative opponent, so this will be interesting.
Mrrshans stole... I clicked past what technology. I checked, they are indeed spying, so told them to stop.
Trilarans are spying too, so could have been them framing Mrsshans.
Trilaran's are getting increasingly hostile. If this "saying hello" thing does anything, I couldn't tell. (Will have to test properly at some point. I'll honestly be a little surprised if it isn't a superstition.)
Full treaties with the other two races, at least.
89: Trilarans steal Merculite. Got Atmo built, now I can build spies with no pollution.
92: War imminent!
Trilaran destroyer and two transports heading for my Huge Poor Ocean. Good thing I was halfway with a Fighter Base!
All righty then. Purge the Xenos.
Recap: I have Homeworld, 1 baby factory and the Poor ocean. And I got those Cloning Plants on all 3, so the Poor will get filled with scientists fast while the HW builds ships.
97: Produced a couple frigates and cleared the skies on my blockaded planet. Wow, so there is a way to remove Natives - they can die during starvation. Sad.
99: The Scout I had blocking Trilar died to a single mass driver salvo. This makes me feel that my decision to rebuild my SB and go for a Battleship instead of spamming Frigates was the right one... hopefully the 5 Frigates I built can hold the fort for now.
4 spies vs 1 and I am still losing technologies. I need to wipe these guys out.
114: BB built. Researched Ion Drives for great justice.
As usual, 20 Nukes 2x with all mods, Bpods, AugEngines and BattleScanner, Class 1 Shield. I suppose I could have more nukes if I ditched shield/bscanner and maybe augs, but I am not Production and I can't afford losses. Not gonna die to a stray ion cannon. Trilarans don't have Zortium yet, so we'll see if this is enough.
119: The great Battle of Tindalos! Very, very close.
My BB and 5 Frigates vs an obviously emergency-built Star Base. I fired everything at the SB and pulled away to avoid their missiles. The SB survived with like... 1 hitpoint or something. I didn't check exactly, just looking at the structure bar. So I withdrew the BB, and had the surviving 4 Frigates (1 died to Mass Driver already) run for the Star Base. They could actually outrun the Pulson Missiles coming my way! That's fun. Well, 2 more Frigates died to Mass Drivers by the time I got range for Boarding action. Boarding action did nothing, but my Frigates dying caused an explosion that took out the Star Base.
I guess further conquests are on hold until I get a second BB. Also, 5 Frigates mean 10 Nukes 2x, so having 27 instead of 20 on the BB wouldn't help me now.
121: Returned and conquered Tindalos. Good thing it was a 1-turn hop from the next system with my Navigator Jarred. I think (correct me?) that this is the only case where AI won't build a Star Base out of nothing, as opposed to when there's a fleet of yours incoming taking 2 or more turns.
This put me in contact with Aggressive Sakkra and Repulsive Silicoids. Trade treaty with Sakkra (no techs gifted).
Sakkra could trade me Soil Enrichment, which would be nice but they want Zortium Armor. They could then trade it to Trilarans, so not sure if it's worth the risk of needing 4 instead of 2 BBs to get anywhere. I only have 1 production planet, after all. Gonna decline.
125: Fighter Garrison withOUT bombers defended me against a BB and DD. Rocco, don't down bombers. Clearly they aren't the only thing responsible for Fighter Garrison being great.
I put my fleet on an empty system close enough to the next Trilarian planet for a 1-turn jump. Still had a Star Base when I arrived. But maybe it had it already and I just couldn't see it due to not having ships in the system.
Also on the same turn, my ambassador was caught assassinatin' people in the Sakkra empire. Fortunately I already have my foot in the door (trade treaty).
A few turns later I got the research treaty too. Gnolams and Mrrshans have all treaties, Silicoid and Trilarans are Repulsive, things are going about as well as they could.
Should I research Warp Dissipator and have an Interdictor Cruiser?
132: Conquered the next planet, Tristar. Next stop: Trilar, the homeword. The planet on the other end of their empire is Trax. Something about Trilarans and T-named worlds?
Trilarans still have only Tritanium Armor, so 2 BBs crushed a Star Base. But their Mass Drivers are now backed by Rangemaster. That kinda hurts. Good things I didn't waste more production on small ships.
134: Arrived on Trilar. One thing you gotta give this Imp 3 Trilaran race:
(*) edit: that was unfair, actually. I forgot I had already inflicted losses almost equal to my own fleet. At this stage of the game no race has ever done significantly more.
Still, first attacked the Base-less 3-pop Toxic, for a foothold, just in case they get Warp Dissipators in the last turn and I need to destroy the Star Base and run. After that gonna go for the Trilaran Homeworld. The crappy Toxic will still serve as a baby factory, which this empire badly needs - the Trilaran planets had to be bombed down before taking.
Destroyed the 2 DDs, Cruiser fled.
Looted Pleasure Dome. Great!
This also brought me in contact with Psilons. Pacifistic Technologists. My brothers, welcome, let us uncover the secrets of the Universe together! Yep, they agreed to a research treaty, and trade as well.
Took the chance to get the last non-agg treaties with whoever I could, and told everyone to stop spying. Man, I love when that works. Do they ever declare war for that demand? Then, since for some reasons the Repulsives weren't spying on me to begin with (right now, anyway) I switched all my spies to Trilarans to see if that does anything before I wipe them out.
137: Fought a Cruiser and Star Base at Trilar homeworld. Destroyed Cruiser. ECM and anti-missile beam fire protected the Star Base.
Spies stole EMG. Not important, but I have too little experience with spying, so I'm happy.
138: Trilar conquered. One system left, and I can finally go get that Dragon.
Gotta focus on faking productivity, so breaking off here.
Markus Ramikin
Justicar
Added minor edits to the last post, nothing big.
140: Trax has two planets, and one has a Star Base. I took the other one first because that's correct conquest procedure.
141: Destroyed the last Destroyer.
142: Star base destroyed, but transports are a few rounds away.
144: Trilarans conquered!
The last conquest brought me Rangemaster. Since I already got Pleasure Dome and EMG in this war, that saved me 2000 RP, I guess. I'm producing 594 RP/turn; should I go for Autolabs? Hm, nah, gonna go for Gravity Generators first, and Radiation Shield. I'm already doing well in tech, and I have major consolidation to do. I did get Robo Miners a few turns ago, which I find terrifically useful for my non-production race.
This victory gives me unquestioned control over the east-southeast slice of the galaxy. There are still unexplored systems around, so I'll be sending my remaining transports to die to previously undetected space monsters as usual.
"Dear Mrs. Wife of the Heroic Trooper #612 on Transport 17, we express our condolences, and we assure you that we had no way of knowing that this system that the dreaded Trilarans never dared colonise could contain something dangerous."
(I'd call this cruel, but this is the game that basically lets you commit the Holocaust, as long as you aren't a Democracy.)
Also built 3 Scouts. One of the systems, in the very southeast corner, is actually too far for my Iridium Cells. I am occupying basically a longish line of systems cutting diagonally from middle east edge to south-southeast edge.
Absent any major catastrophies, I won this game.
Edited to add: Picture from a few turns ahead:
Check out that straight line of T-named Trilaran systems.
148: Transport discovered a Hydra guarding an Ultra Rich Large Terra near Trax. Psilons on the other side. It's a bit of a race, I suppose. (EDIT: Oh Azathoth, I totally didn't mean that pun.)
152: Dragon killed at Mirak, Large Rich Terra colonised. My Sol baby factory had grown to 5 for lack of population outlet, and been spamming out freighters all this time. Now they'll use those freighters to move to their new homes on a wonderful planet. Life is fair.
BBs returning to Sol for a refit into Class 3 shields. I don't remember how tough Hydras are and I don't wanna reload saves due to lack of foresight.
155: Class III shield researched.
Someone - I really need to stop clicking through the news network - discovered High Energy Distribution.
Checking race reports: Silicoids. The one Repulsive left in the game. Even if they weren't, I have no idea if they'd even trade something higher than my own tech levels. I could try spying, but honestly, these techs will not be useful for me right now, and by the time they are, it'll be a few turns of research anyway. I really need to play a production/conquest/spying race that's weak on research some time.
156: One of my scouts found Orion. That is, of course, my next target, as long as Silicoids behave.
163: Hehe, well I never got to find out what the Hydra is capable of doing to my Zortium Class III BBs. I had initiative on it (this is a common theme with me, I know, boring) so I fired first and then ran backwards. It wasted its shots on the missiles, which of course accomplished nothing.
Rocco, is there a way to change its weapon properties so that it can't do that? Perhaps instead of 4 normal shots, 2-3 Heavy Mount?
Reloaded save and Waited, just to find out how tough I am... 4 Plasma Breaths took out my 72 damage shield and put a 56 damage dent in my 200 armor. I skipped again and went to 0 armor and 100 out of 200 structure, but this time the plasma breaths were fired point blank. I guess I would have lived fine without Class III.
165: Gnolans want to ally with me. This is my second offer of that kind this game. Another sign that it's basically won.
Long story short, I did win, with over 30 planets, a vast advantage in pop and tech, and 18 battleships. I only played to 220ish to test more ideas against Orion's Guardian.
Edited to add thoughts:
The game was a lot more fun than the previous one, as I got less lucky in many little ways, and since I got challenged early in my colonisation phase and had to switch to war mode. This is EXACTLY the sort of a game I have learned to expect in IcemodX when playing a Democratic, tech-strong race: getting outcolonized early on but building a tech advantage which translates into a turn 130-160 conquest, which means all those 500 pp colony ships the enemy built were ultimately built for me.
After playing all those games with noncreative variants and now coming back to this, I do notice some real benefits. Not missing out on Iridium Cells meant less potential problems with range, not missing on Fusion Drive was convenient during early colonisation, Hydro and Sub Farms helped redirect colonists to useful tasks, not missing out on Class 1 shield due to ECM... all minor things, but they were still felt.
Still, economically the race still felt anemic, although actually much less so in war mode for some reason. It's the difference between those two races:
DemAquRArt
DemAquRArt +2Sci +1Food
I just did a careful comparison by editing the starting savegame. Without hiring leaders etc., and sinking all money into production, the Creative race produced a colony ship on turn 72. The noncreative +F +2S... turn 59. That's a big frikkin' difference. So are those 14 picks worth it? Again, the whole argument probably revolves around how much we should treat Creative as a diplomatic pick, to be used with Charismatic for AI abuse. I prefer to valuate Creative based on economy and war, because that's where the fun is. At least for me.
I wonder if this balance issue would be helped if the occurance of Repulsive races were increased... currently I get way too many games with 0 or at most 1 of those. I was actually happy to see 2 Repulsive in this game, and one of them a neighbour.
140: Trax has two planets, and one has a Star Base. I took the other one first because that's correct conquest procedure.
141: Destroyed the last Destroyer.
142: Star base destroyed, but transports are a few rounds away.
144: Trilarans conquered!
The last conquest brought me Rangemaster. Since I already got Pleasure Dome and EMG in this war, that saved me 2000 RP, I guess. I'm producing 594 RP/turn; should I go for Autolabs? Hm, nah, gonna go for Gravity Generators first, and Radiation Shield. I'm already doing well in tech, and I have major consolidation to do. I did get Robo Miners a few turns ago, which I find terrifically useful for my non-production race.
This victory gives me unquestioned control over the east-southeast slice of the galaxy. There are still unexplored systems around, so I'll be sending my remaining transports to die to previously undetected space monsters as usual.
"Dear Mrs. Wife of the Heroic Trooper #612 on Transport 17, we express our condolences, and we assure you that we had no way of knowing that this system that the dreaded Trilarans never dared colonise could contain something dangerous."
(I'd call this cruel, but this is the game that basically lets you commit the Holocaust, as long as you aren't a Democracy.)
Also built 3 Scouts. One of the systems, in the very southeast corner, is actually too far for my Iridium Cells. I am occupying basically a longish line of systems cutting diagonally from middle east edge to south-southeast edge.
Absent any major catastrophies, I won this game.
Edited to add: Picture from a few turns ahead:
Spoiler :
Check out that straight line of T-named Trilaran systems.
148: Transport discovered a Hydra guarding an Ultra Rich Large Terra near Trax. Psilons on the other side. It's a bit of a race, I suppose. (EDIT: Oh Azathoth, I totally didn't mean that pun.)
152: Dragon killed at Mirak, Large Rich Terra colonised. My Sol baby factory had grown to 5 for lack of population outlet, and been spamming out freighters all this time. Now they'll use those freighters to move to their new homes on a wonderful planet. Life is fair.
BBs returning to Sol for a refit into Class 3 shields. I don't remember how tough Hydras are and I don't wanna reload saves due to lack of foresight.
155: Class III shield researched.
Someone - I really need to stop clicking through the news network - discovered High Energy Distribution.
Checking race reports: Silicoids. The one Repulsive left in the game. Even if they weren't, I have no idea if they'd even trade something higher than my own tech levels. I could try spying, but honestly, these techs will not be useful for me right now, and by the time they are, it'll be a few turns of research anyway. I really need to play a production/conquest/spying race that's weak on research some time.
156: One of my scouts found Orion. That is, of course, my next target, as long as Silicoids behave.
163: Hehe, well I never got to find out what the Hydra is capable of doing to my Zortium Class III BBs. I had initiative on it (this is a common theme with me, I know, boring) so I fired first and then ran backwards. It wasted its shots on the missiles, which of course accomplished nothing.
Rocco, is there a way to change its weapon properties so that it can't do that? Perhaps instead of 4 normal shots, 2-3 Heavy Mount?
Reloaded save and Waited, just to find out how tough I am... 4 Plasma Breaths took out my 72 damage shield and put a 56 damage dent in my 200 armor. I skipped again and went to 0 armor and 100 out of 200 structure, but this time the plasma breaths were fired point blank. I guess I would have lived fine without Class III.
165: Gnolans want to ally with me. This is my second offer of that kind this game. Another sign that it's basically won.
Long story short, I did win, with over 30 planets, a vast advantage in pop and tech, and 18 battleships. I only played to 220ish to test more ideas against Orion's Guardian.
Edited to add thoughts:
The game was a lot more fun than the previous one, as I got less lucky in many little ways, and since I got challenged early in my colonisation phase and had to switch to war mode. This is EXACTLY the sort of a game I have learned to expect in IcemodX when playing a Democratic, tech-strong race: getting outcolonized early on but building a tech advantage which translates into a turn 130-160 conquest, which means all those 500 pp colony ships the enemy built were ultimately built for me.
After playing all those games with noncreative variants and now coming back to this, I do notice some real benefits. Not missing out on Iridium Cells meant less potential problems with range, not missing on Fusion Drive was convenient during early colonisation, Hydro and Sub Farms helped redirect colonists to useful tasks, not missing out on Class 1 shield due to ECM... all minor things, but they were still felt.
Still, economically the race still felt anemic, although actually much less so in war mode for some reason
. It's the difference between those two races:DemAquRArt
DemAquRArt +2Sci +1Food
I just did a careful comparison by editing the starting savegame. Without hiring leaders etc., and sinking all money into production, the Creative race produced a colony ship on turn 72. The noncreative +F +2S... turn 59. That's a big frikkin' difference. So are those 14 picks worth it? Again, the whole argument probably revolves around how much we should treat Creative as a diplomatic pick, to be used with Charismatic for AI abuse. I prefer to valuate Creative based on economy and war, because that's where the fun is. At least for me.
I wonder if this balance issue would be helped if the occurance of Repulsive races were increased... currently I get way too many games with 0 or at most 1 of those. I was actually happy to see 2 Repulsive in this game, and one of them a neighbour.
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