[MoO] ICEMOD: mod design, race design, strategies

Another nice easy win, Markus.

I know one thing for sure and that is whether I win or lose my walkthrough game, my next game WON'T be as Repulsive!
 
I think I'm going to make my next game repulsive, then ;)

And yeah, but I felt better about it, as it wasn't an "easy win" in the sense of being able to colonize 7 "wet" systems without interference, in a safe corner. I only had 2 systems in this war!

(Summary added to the last post.)
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Rocco, any chance could you lay out the exact mechanics and formulas involved in spying in IcemodX? (Assume I know nothing about how it worked in Moo2 either). Google mostly produced a lot of conjecture for me.
 
Markus, you seem to be having a jolly time lately. I have something to ask you about your race designs. You too Neilkaz. When you guys play icemod, have you played a serious game and race using the ship combat picks? I would note they are much cheaper in Icemod than vanilla.

Ofcourse I could be curious if you are using those picks too, Rocco.
 
Not yet I haven't. What's on your mind? +offense I imagine would mean using an early Beam ship gambit? Since it doesn't affect missiles. Mass Drivers?
 
the Hydra [...] is there a way to change its weapon properties so that it can't do that? Perhaps instead of 4 normal shots, 2-3 Heavy Mount?
Unfort. not.
I can give it more beams but cannot mod the beam to be Hv.
Just the way the code is written.
But it hasn't been my intention to make the system monster uber-strong.
They have been strengthened compared to classic, so you need some more turns to be able to take the good planets.
If monster are too strong then the a.i. will wait too long before taking the systems.

about spying: gonna write some stuff about it soon.
# added some info on your spy bonusses in Races screen, if you right click on your spies.
I don't have a full info and I don't think anybody does at this moment.
 
Not suggesting making them stronger, just to prevent them from wasting their shots on missiles. Too bad that's not possible, then.
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War report!

Trying to learn Unified again. Going with
UniAqu +1F +2P RLArt / -Growth -Rep
-Growth instead of -LowG because I want my colonies to be more produtive. Hopefully housing colonies will compensate for the growth.

Turn 0:
Spawned on the south-southwest edge. I may have the corner to myself - we'll see.

3 colonies in system, all hostile, 2 poor and 1 ultrapoor. This is both good and bad - 3 housing colonies but each one a bad one. Gonna colonise all 3 and see how it goes.

Turn 22-25 or so, forgot to check:
All 3 CBs built, and growing a total of 0.3 pop per turn. Didn't research labs or factories yet, as I'm counting on that early growth to be useful.

I don't know what's more efficient, to half-buy the CBs, or full (or half-) buy the factories. Quicktried a couple variants and the end results were roughly the same. Don't feel like doing exact research on this issue right now.

Turn 33:
Gallis joins. His effect will be next to nothing, though.

Turn 62:
First Colony Ship ready. I also have 3 extra pop waiting, and the housing colonies are almost done with building 2 freighters and 2 spies, after which back to housing.

Neighbourhood contains:
* Daban I - Ultrapoor Large Terran (18)
* Rial III - Poor Huge Arid (15)
* Pavone II - Poor Huge Tundra (9)
* a few Rich and Ultrarich planets, but they all have problems with climate, and either size or gravity or both.
* 2 very crappy planets with Gem Deposits

This may be my Demo-tech experience speaking, but I'm gonna go with the Terra first, and fill it with scientists, while using my homeworld for production. I do want that Zortium, after all. Afterwards we'll see. No contacts yet...

67: Alkari contact to the northwest, and cutting towards me. They took the Huge Arid.

Researcher Emo wants work. I'm short on cash right now, but he'll help that research colony. Colonizing a Gem Deposit to get cash without taxes. I wonder if Gallis's financial trait will help with that? (Tested: no)

69: Gnolans east of me. Gonna start producing something fleetlike soon. 3 Destroyers should do it to cover the Gem planet that's close to them - not MIRV yet, but will refit them later. I am so wary of Gnolans by now, more than any other race except Darloks. Not because they're strong, but because they're stupid and insane.

71: Crystal in the very southwest corner of the galaxy has a Huge Rich Gaia with Gems.

I want.

86: Trilarans to the northeast, occupying a goodly chunk of the galaxy.
I've colonised a few planets, including both Gems for money, as well as a Huge Ultrarich which will be useful later. For for now it'll serve as a refuelling station for an attack on the Crystal.

105: Sent 6 Tie Defend... err, I meant 6 Destroyers with 7 Mirv Nukes each to kill the Crystal, and succeeded after losing 4, precisely as I had calculated.
Sun Tzu said:
"Now the general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: how much more no calculation at all!"
See, even the ancient generals understood us.

Colonising the Gaia in 2 turns - already have a bunch of colonists itching to migrate there. -50% Growth, what -50% Growth? Will colonise a few more planets, but first rebuilding 2 more Destroyers for now - costs me only 2 turns and will look impressive until I get Battleships. Worst case, if Trilarans or someone attack, I'll spam them until my skies are clear.

Supercomputer researched in 1 turn, after that Zortium and Ion Drives, though perhaps not in that order.

And then we sound the drums of war!

Maybe.

Relations with everyone seem okay for now, though I am repulsive and I don't spam "hello". Probably helps that I actually have something resembling a fleet.

132: Done researching Zortium and Ion Drives. I have
* two production planets, Homeworld and the Huge Rich Gaia, which is close to full and just finished building everything it needed, including a Star Base.
* one research planet
* 3 farmable medium sized nothing special planets that aren't filled yet
* 6 dead rocks building Housing, 2 of them farming Gems

Spoiler :
game%2015%20colonised.png


Time to kill someone off.

Trilarans to the northeast have a ton of systems and good tech. Gnolans to the east are weak, but their systems stretch in a long line that I'd be hard pressed to defend against the Trilarans later. I vote Alkari, to the north. With 5 systems and unimpressive tech and fleet, they are weak, and absorbing them will give me an uncontested, compact position in the southwest corner, to finish colonising and then growing upwards. Only their combat bonuses look dangerous, but the defensive one won't work against missles, and as to the other, well, that's why I got Heavy Armor. Will compensate for less Nukes by building more BBs - that's why I'm Production, right?

Actually, it turns out I can still pack 20 Nukes 2x, fully modified, per Battleship. Nice! I only now checked... Heavy Armor and Class I shield both take 50 space? And I've been using Class 1 Shields in my previous games? Not what I would term one of my better-reasoned decisions. But I'll know better now.

159: TO WAR!
Took this long because I finally checked the race report, and Alkari have Ion Pulse Cannons. This, combined with their +50% offense bonus, means I'm not even going there without Class III shield. Taking out the Heavy Armor after all.

I have 900 cash reserves, 4 BBs, 4 DDS, 4 Transports (and counting). Overkill, you say? The devil take you, this is my first truly successful-looking Unification game. I'm allowed to go a little overboard, dammit.

Everything either has, or is about to get, Fighters + Radiation Shield. 'cause I have no Navigator and my drives are slower than the ones Alkari have, which means a defensive fleet will be too late everywhere. This'll be a bit of a slow Necron March of Doom.

I only have Deuterium cells, which means I have to follow a specific path to reach Altair, but the important thing is that that path exists - I don't have to research Uridium.

(Did you guys know that by pressing F9, you can compare distances between stars? I only found out not long ago. Useful.)

161: Tyr taken, only 1 planet colonised. 5 colonists, annihilating because Alkari have bad race statistics, only +2 food. I prefer my +1F+2P.

They had Lightning Field. I guess that's what I get for starting a war this late. Still, Star Base died in first salvo of missiles.

163: Rial taken. Alkari had BB and Star Base, BB fled.

Some of my colonies suffered attacks, one of them by a BB + 2 DDs. Figher Garrison + Bomber Bays + Radiation Shields held the fort. Ion Cannons are not very useful on the offensive, are they, my birdlike friends...

165: Got 1 out of the 3 colonised planets in Rukubi.

Looted Anti-Matter Torpedo. Meh. As usual I set a number of spies, too, and as usual that doesn't do diddly squat.

Rial under bombardment. It had a large pop which I didn't want to waste, so hoped I could build barracks before defenses for rebellions while Alkari ships were busy. Not busy enough, apparently. I'll send back the 4 DDs and see if that helps. I clearly don't need them on the offensive. 2 turns though, might be too late.

167: Rukubi is all mine. Iridium Cells looted, yay.

The 4 Destroyers cleared the skies on Rial. 1 colonist left alive there.

5th Battleship produced.

The Alkari seem to have combined all their forces into one fleet, 3 BBs and 1 DD. It's about to attack Pavome, on the far side from them. I can't do anything about it, but I have a modicum of faith in our pilots.

168: The defense of Pavome has been successful - in fact quite easy, with the Alkari's method of attacking consisting of staying at maximum range and firing torpedos at me. Of course Radiation Shield blocks low level beam weapons, but they could have armed themselves with actual, you know, bombs...

Explain to me again what Torpedoes are for in this game? I never quite understood. They fire every other turn, unlike missiles, and don't really do much...

169: Altair is mine! Had to bomb it down a bit, sadly - I have stronger troops, but few of them, and I want to end this war ASAP. Relations with Trilarians and Gnolans are looking worse, and they have outteched me too.

172: Xithias conquered.
Alkari finally got Zorthium Armor. All this meant, in combination with the Lightning Field, is that my 4 Battleships had to fire both salvoes of missiles instead of one. Good to know.

But this means that my 4 Destroyers heading for the last system, Tur, will probably fail, and the war will take a few turns longer while my Battleships move there.

173: Oh shiiiiiiii..., Nebula! Means shields aren't working, means two Destroyers went down to Ion Cannons before I could do anything (see why I researched Class III?). I should have seen this coming.

Withdrew the other 2. Will combine and attack with the entire fleet, except for 1 Battleship which is busy anticipating an attack somewhere else.

176: Trilarans and Alkari at war.

I will be able to combine my entire fleet after all, 6 Battleships and 2 Destroyers.

180: LOL, Trilarans bombed Tur out of existence 2 turns before I could take it. I guess that works.
Spoiler :
game%2015%20alkari%20over.png

WAR OVER! Let us now work on creating better worlds, where cripples could walk, and the blind could see...

(Or we can just try to survive in an out-teched position, that's a worthy goal too.)
 
Trilarian have built themselves quite the empire in the middle of the map!

Explain to me again what Torpedoes are for in this game? I never quite understood. They fire every other turn, unlike missiles, and don't really do much...
Yeah .. there are somewhat stronger in ice, but still not a weapon of pref when in that stage of the game. It is possible to make them fire every turn though. Haven't done it yet, as assumed it to benefit humans more than a.i. On the other hand they are quite useless now. Might need some more attention these lightning buddies.
 
Hm, what ship weapons do you guys use in the mid game? There's a gap between when I use Mirv Nukes and when I can switch to Gauss Cannons, which I'd like to fill. I will be trying to have peace until beam ships, but I can't /count/ on it, so I wanna know how to best prepare in case i need to defend.

I assume Class V shield will reduce my Nukes to 3 damage, which is terrible, as even MIRVs will count as 8x4 rather than 32... So what to replace them with? Problem is after researching Pollution, Atmo and Zortium, Nukes are the only missiles I have...

I could research Anti-Matter Torpedoes, but I won't be able to modify them with ECCM without a lot more research.

Bombers will obviously beat any shields, but a quick reload of a save between the Alkari war, refitting all my 4 BBs to 4 Bombers each, doesn't let me kill a Star Base, even after researching Anti-Matter Bomb. Space efficiency on this thing is apparently terrible, and it doesn't even miniaturise, and bombers die rather easily, too.

(Planet-based bombers are awesome due to getting more of them, but ship-based ones get 4 bombers with 1 attack, which I think makes ship-based bombers a lot worse than ship-based fighters - will be testing later when I have time - and only 1 launch unless they survive returning to the ship).

So what would you guys do?

Also I saw Neilkaz capturing a lot of ships in his walkthrough. Do Assault Shuttles work against shields, or do you need to bring those down first? Never really used them except for Antarans...

EDIT: Hm, I haven't tried heavy fighters yet. Though I hate to lose out on Planet Construction. But it may be worth it to survive, IF they are any better than Bombers..
 
Hi Rocco,

I am new here and found all of your work when I considered playing a round of moo2 again some months ago, but was looking for a challenge. So after some games I am back with a compliment. You did a great job and made a good game even better. There are some things to improve and I see you are still doing so. In face of the remake of moo2 by wargames I'd like to encourage you to go on doing this anyways, because moo2 will remain an all time favourite.

I'd also like to share some experience I had within the games I played. I would say I am an advanced player though not an expert.

My first two games at hard level were with a race I call AquaSubGrowth, aquatic, subterranean, rich, large and +100 pop growth (-low grav, -repulsive). Despite my quick growth which would have easily pulled over the AI in the old moo, here I found myself against a hard bunch of enemies attacking me with fleets of 10-15 battleships in the mid game. I was attacked from all sides by different races. Very hard to win. I had to take a loss and reload to correct my mistakes. Nice experience, very ballanced. All in all I had a hard time but finally won over after getting small heads up in number of ships and then ran over the biggest enemy, afterward as quickly as possible extinguishing the rest. Small downer may be that none of the AIs could recover (rebuilt fleets) after I had fought off there major run of attacks. So there was one hot phase, followed by a phase in which I was sure that I had one but still had to overcome most races.

My third game was at hard again now with LithCreatGrowth, lith., creative, pop +50 (-low, -rep). Its a creative race that saves on food to get a tech advantage. Now comes the first hinge of my story. In this game I overran the AI. My ships were more advanced, I had more and quicker ones. The AI onyl slowly developed in tech. I felt back at MOO2 standard. When I attacked with disruptors in the mid game, the AI still had Neutron blasters. In that game I had a good start with an early terran+natives planet. But I am not sure whether it was that what made the difference. Overall it felt nearly a bit boring contrary to the first games.

So maybe my game play improved? Maybe it was the effective race design?

So now in my forth game using the same race I switched to impossible mode. And this gave me a headache. I built up similarly as in the previous game. Already arround turn 100 I get attacked by 5 Elarian destroyers that outdate me by tech and smashed my fleet (Neutron blasters, Ion drive, Shields, bombs versus my four destoryers with Mercholite missiles and shields + planet garrison). And they are nearly the weakest of all opponents. I do not have any chance with the race and gameplay that still was easy in the previous game on hard level.

Maybe you can help me with some questions about ice:
- Is the difficulty differential between hard and impossible high enough to explain my loss
- Do you think the difference between the first two games on hard and the third game on hard game was due to race or just luck because the AI could not develop properly?
- Do you have any good advice on strategy and race design I should try to beat the AI at Impossible?

My next game will probably be again same race, back to Hard to see if it was just a one time AI failure.

Thanks a lot for this mod and maybe you have some advice too! :)

PS: I usually play with eight races. Maybe it's worth considering less (is that easier or harder in you experience)?
 
Hey hey. I'm not Rocco, but permit me to chime in with what I understand of this. I too always play with 8 races.

First, yes, Impossible is a good deal harder than Hard. And it's even harder if you are playing IcemodX, in which AI races get more racial picks on Impossible.

Luck is a big factor in this game. Getting a nice second planet early for instance can be a major boost. So it takes a good sample of games to average that out, and get a sense of how strong your race and your strategy really is.

Your race design seems a little underoptimised. I find it best to look for synergies: one dimension of strength x another x another. You know, how 8x2 is less than 5x5...

Two costly size-increasing picks (Aquatic and Subterreanean) probably won't amount to as much power as taking one of them, say Aquatic (which also contains +food in it) + Large Homeworld + Rich and Artefacts (or +Research or +Production), and Democratic or Uni for a 1.5x multiplier to either food/prod or research/money. So that all that large population is actually effective at producing/researching, especially at the very start, where the early gains wrap around and snowball: researching labs and factories means faster researching and faster building...

Also, +growth is nice if you have spare 6 picks, but you should never have spare 6 picks ;). And you can compensate for lack of it with an early colony base, for a 1-population Housing colony, which only needs a Factory and is a fast way to generate colonists that doesn't cost racial picks or extra research.
 
The compliments were for Rocco, the rest is of course open to all! Thanks for your insights! :-)

Okay so growth is useless, you say. But I like the creative + Lith combination. I have right now -rep, -gravity. What's a good pick for the remaining 6? Production? Research? Or not using -gravity and compromise on something else?

I will optimize this race and will play another round at hard. If I find it to easy to win again, I will go back to impossible.

I have another unrelated question: the Antarans attack. I sometimes feel 'disadvantaged' by this, because it feels I am in the only one whom they attack? Is this true that only the player is affected by this or is this a random event? Or do they always attack the strongest race?
 
Hey,
thanks for feedback.

So first of all about your games on Hard mode: Yes, there can be variability in a.i. development in different games. This is also true in the other game modes in fact. There can be many reasons; Each a.i can have 3 race variants, and a variant can do better or worse depending on circumstances. Some variants I have designed as 'war races' and should be able to put up a fight early on, while others are economy races, designed to be able to develop an empire. A.I.'s get a different personality each game which can also influence heavily their behaviour.

Then there is map layout, immediate neighbours, quality of planets in nearby systems, events etc etc. So many things can influence the game. And offcourse, maybe you have just improved your game play. :)

Stepping up from Hard to Impossible requires a bit of learning curve. Let me first say, and maybe it is obvious already, but just to get it out of the way: make sure you are playing in icemod.exe and not in icemodx.exe. ICE-X Impossible is another diff. level really:
Hard>imp>Imp-X

In Hard level difficulty, races on average have ~30 eco picks.
In Imp level that is 37.5 and in Imp-X it is 46.

BTW, Elerians might have been the weaklings in classic moo2, they are of a different character in ice! Average eco strength of Elerians in classic moo2 / hard: 7.7. Average Elerian in ice / hard: 29.

Then about your race design: I don't really like to prescribe 'best races' to other players, there are many race designs described in this thread by Neilkaz, Markus and others that can give some clues. In recent posts there has been some debate around the Repulsive trait. Basically if you use it, you are on your own if you are non-Rep than you can try to play (abuse...) a.i. with diplomacy and it can make a big difference in how many wars you need to fight. Also you should have focus on population growth, housing, housing. I guess being AquaSub can be good, if you use this pop advantage to the max. by growing really fast.

Then there is one mechanic that can be key to a succesful game: Expansion.
A.I. really react strongly to you expanding in the galaxy. What it means; if you expand fast your empire and grab many systems, then expect to get a lot of pressure. Thus, if you grab many planets and have a weak economy base, you will get crushed. This is a reason that research races can do quite well, they are expanding more slowly in #systems. With a decent pop.modifer (aqua,sub or tol), you can still get some good population and focus on your technology level, while getting less pressure from a.i.

Lastly, just read the many stories here already. they are fun to read and give many pointers!

:cool:

edit: Markus, did not see your post while I was typing :)
 
1 more thought about Lithovore: the most ideal combo is a DemoLith race. Can be very powerful and was certainly a superrace in classic moo2.
 
Hm, CreLith... I am not experienced with this. I'd take Artefacts, because the point of Creative is to grab techs. Research Factories, build a housing colony, start filling up that population, research labs, go nuts. The remaining 3 picks I'd use on Large HW because you can't really do anything with 3 picks. If Creative didn't cost 14, cough Rocco cough, I'd pick Rich instead. But that's me, and again, I'm not experienced with Lithovore.

And yeah, that SubAqua thing does intrigue me, in that if you know how to increase your pop fast (<-- link) it might have some potential... you'll end up with a large population, and if you remove the 100% Growth and add picks that increase output per colonist, that large population might pay off.

And yes, as Rocco said, read our stories :D
 
Yeah, just look at the openings.

CreLith+LargeArt makes at most 17 production (after pollution) or 40 research, and it will only add +5 research per new colonist.

DemLith+RichArt changes that to 24 or 61, and every new scientist will add +8.5 research.

The strength of Lithovore is that it immediately gives you a larger population to work with... so for the best start you want to multiply that population by a good per-colonist output. Democracy, Rich and Artefacts increase per-colonist output.

Creative... does not. Unfortunately Creative is really hard to get any value out of in the early game. (Sometimes I miss the unpatched game where it cost 3 picks ;) ). I still play it, but not with another single pick costing 24...
 
1 more thought about Lithovore: the most ideal combo is a DemoLith race. Can be very powerful and was certainly a superrace in classic moo2.

My Feudal super race is Lith/P+1/R+1/LRAHW with my negs being Feudal/LG. HW after pollution nets 29 pp/t and 34 rp/t now!

This is both a production race and a tech race. The huge starting benefit of Litho is that you can have all 8 of your workers working or researching. Basically any Litho race is a tech oriented race since you can have everyone in the labs. I am also a huge fan of home world enhancements like Rich and Artifacts and Large since much of your early game is played with the HW as your only decent planet. Even more so in my cases as LG since LG is a drag on every colony not made on a LG planet.

It would be possible for me to replace Feudal with Dict and 9 negs and then I'd have at the start 29 pp/t and 48 rp/t as the 30% loss in research to Feudal is gone.

Of course combining Uni with Food and Prod bonus is synergistic as is combining Demo with research advantages.

Litho is well balanced at +24 and it also is easy to play. It is now possible to generate 72 rp/t from the HW with DemoLith/R+1/Arti but it is likely probably better to sacrifice some HW research for some production and planet size. I can't be sure, as most of my experience in this game is playing production races and using those races to develop a great econ rather than blitzing early. However, vs the super AI's in IceX I think one does need good research ability also which is why I am usually playing more balanced super custom races.
 
Yeah, if I were to try DemoLith, I'd prefer DemoLithRichArti so my HW can make things more efficiently but compared to DemoLithR+1Arti my empire won't have as much research capability but I'd hope to counteract that with faster colonization and also research buildings. However, this race's lab rats on the HW with provide 7.5 rp/t each as 1.5 x 5=7.5
 
Cool, thanks for all the advice. I like the lith+democracy idea quite a lot, but then the creative aspect is missing. I am thinking of adding prod +1 and large home worlds leaving one open pick.

By the way am I usuing an outdated version? My large HW is 2 picks; rich is 4 picks. @Markus said something different (3 ?).

AquaSub gives you really large population; but you are right about the quantifier. Note you can use prod +1, rich, large, grwoth +100, for example. Or even higher prod/research.

I will play a game on hard with lithDem and let you know how it goes.

Any ideas on the Antharan question above?
 
BTW guys, please don't miss my questions about weapons, a few posts earlier :)

Re: Torpedoes
Rocco, I like the firing every other turn aspect, it makes them different. Perhaps make them more space-efficient, so you can have more total damage per ship? (Not more damage per torpedo, as that would negate late game shields too much). Then the instant Proton Torpedoes might even be a viable mid/late-game alternative to beams, with all their 2-turn worth of punch concentrated in a first strike... never quite as powerful as beams because you don't get many different special systems to enhance them, but still could be good.
 
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