[MoO] ICEMOD: mod design, race design, strategies

[Dukinson]

This kind of phrasing reminds me of an ex-girlfirend of mine...

She called you Rocco?

Some questions:

Is the chance to capture a tech in a planet invasion proportional to how much population you capture? So that if you have to bomb down a planet to 1 first, you're more likely to get nothing?

I remember seeing a chart for this years ago and though I don't recall the exact figures. Rocco is correct in that you do capture technology based on how developed the colony is when taken. Population was a minor factor but I remember capturing buildings were the greatest chances of acquiring technology. You can capture technology with only 1 pop and no structures but it's very unlikely. If I was about to lose a colony, I would evacuate all but one colonist and start destroying as many structures as possible to help prevent the capture of technology.

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Thanks, Dulkinson.

On empty BB fits exactly 4; or 5 with Battle Pods or Megafluxers; or 6 with both.

So idea: if we make the HF cost 65 space instead of 75, then on a BB you have 40 space left, which can fit a L1 miniaturized shield. Or another special system that uses 40 space. Most specials are 40 space at L1 minia (as they start at 50 space). Think that could be an interesting improvement. What do you guys think?

Hm, I like it. Perhaps decrease Bombers a bit too (and Fighters? I have no experience with those), and reduce Fighter Garrison capacity accordingly? It's potent as it is, which is a good thing, but it probably shouldn't get even stronger.

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Observations re: Bombers and Heavy Fighters
(heads up Neilkaz)

Now that I'm done with this last game I mini-reported on, I am thinking that Heavy Fighters (and possibly Bombers) can seriously solve the "what to use after Nukes" problem for noncreative Unifications who didn't get Pulsons or Zeons. Bombers and HFs are less space-efficient than MIRV Nukes (let alone end-game Beams!), but being production-based you can go for quantity.

In the early wars stage there really doesn't seem to be a point in using them, as you need more Bombers or HFs to overwhelm the same amount of defenses (pd beam defenses, other ships shooting at them etc.) before you start doing real damage to a star base or ship, and you only get one "salvo" - if an explosion wipes them out, you've got nothing left. But because of the high damage per bomb, falling behind in tech isn't that big a deal - better shields won't make you obsolete.

Being Unification and having won a territorial war I had large production, so I could overwhelm enemies with larger fleets. When I first fought Psilons I basically had to have 1.5x their number of ships or more to win convincingly, and even then I typically took some losses. (That's just Psilons - I fought a few large battles against Gnolans, who are slightly behind me in tech, when I had like 14 BBs and they had like 18 BBs + 4 smaller ones, and with a little tactical care I won with small losses.)

It really helped that I committed to this line of tech in advance. Got Fighter Garrison, then Bombers, then Anti-Matter bomb, and I got powerful colony defenses at the cost of not having Reinforced Hull or Assault Shuttles or Anti-Matter Drive. Then Heavy Fighters (at the cost of Planet Construction), Neutronium Bomb (Hyper Drive), and Phasors for a cheap and strong beam, all to make my HFs able to crack even powerful and well shielded ships. And of course Zortium and then later Adamantium.

The bombs made me sacrifice drives, but that's why I got Fighter Garrison and all those techs that made it good - a bunch of small raiders couldn't cause me any grief, only large and/or advanced fleets. I was slower, but hard to attack and unstoppable on the offensive. Then once I got Warp Interdictor my empire went on a 50% taxes "build one of this thing in every system" spree (one of the only times ever I used the Name sort in Colonies) and since I already had Jump Gate, I've been untouchable as long as I win big fleet engagements. (Then I researched Interphase Drives and Mutated into Trans-Dimensional and speed hasn't been a problem either )

Bombers and HFs kill the Guardian too, with more ships needed but less research than Hyper-X and HEF-powered Gauss ships. Been really enjoying finding uses for them.

And of course it took 24 Doom Stars and some careful tactics, but I killed Antares with Heavy Fighters too Turn 375 so they had a lot of ships there.

Next thing to look at: Torpedoes.

 

[Rocco.40]

Next thing to look at: Torpedoes.

cool
lets also think a bit about the nuclear missile.
Dukinson has been pointing to this weapon for quite some time.
Question is, if it is overpowered?
You get it basically for free at 50rp and is the weapon of choice to take down all system guarding monsters. The Nuke can stay useful when MIRV-ed till long past T100. Can even be useful after T150. That is a really long time. Obvisouly if we would nerf the Nuke than the Merc is immediate next weapon of choice, but at least it costs 900 RP to get it. Have no specific plans for the Nuke atm, just booting up some debate...

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Hm. I hope I haven't missed a crucial post of his - just went back over the last 5 pages - but I don't quite understand what Dukinson is trying to say about the state of balance. Are his objections only about Strategic games? That I know nothing about and aren't about to learn, I'm tactical through and through. But is there a problem in tactical, and what is it exactly? Not in rhetoric terms like "watering down", but in specific balance issues, maybe examples?

This is not a criticism of Dukinson - it's very possible that I simply don't have the sense of balance yet to see something which to him is obvious. Just saying, I'd be interested in reading a clear case.

My own take on Nukes: it's not Nukes, the whole game is like this. First missiles rule, because large distances hurt beams. When targetting and damage-enhancing technologies become available, beams rule and missiles prove too slow and too easily destroyed in flight. (Moo1 was like that too, though for slightly different reasons). Can't really change this without an unacceptably major overhaul of this whole game and its technologies.

Nukes just get exceptionally good at the start because pollution and armor research gives you refinement on them. Again, nothing to do about that unless you want to mess with refinement values themselves and remove the MIRV mod.

And I don't mind that at the start of the game there is something which just works, as long as you're willing to do 3-4 levels of research.

Should it become obsolete earlier? That would require lowering damage or hitpoints or both, so that they either lose more damage to early shields or become easier shot down by beams. The problem is that noncreative nontolerants have to choose between pollution, missile, fuel, and armor techs... having to forgo pollution processor or atmo is going to hurt people's starts or expansions. Maybe we're okay with that...

For now, I don't see the need for changes, but I'm certainly interested in this debate.

 

[Rocco.40]

just went back over the last 5 pages -

apology, i was referring to a discussing we had on the orion nebula forum.

ice missiles get the MIRV mod only at level 3 (was 2) miniaturization, so it takes longer to get it.
nukes are also easier to shoot down (3 vs 4 hit points / armored is 6 vs 8)

More or less the 2xNuke can be compared to a Mass Driver in terms of damage/space.
Nuke does slighly more damage, has better chances to hit target but has travel time, can be shot down and offcourse runs out of ammo after 2 rounds.

Still Mass Driver is not weapon of choice to take down monsters but the Nuke is.
Guess a big part is indeed that there is more incentive to research into the Chemistry tree than in the Force Fields tree in early game, so the value of miniaturization kicks in earlier for the Nuke.

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Aside

omgIlovetheprotontorpedosomuch I wanna go Mr Plinkett on it
that sound
that instant hit

Not feeling as smart as I did when designing my first torpedo ship... only in battle did I realize that Enveloping is not the equivalent of EMG, and if I put in some torpedoes without it and some with it, I'm just being stupid.

Also, Rocco, read your goddamn pms

 

[Markus Ramikin]

I had a very interesting game, to me anyway, where I played Unification but it felt like a turtling Democracy. I got 6 systems during colonisation, and decided to see what would happen if I didn't fight an early war for a change. Researched R-Shield and Terraforming and Robo Miners, and started growing up instead of out. Later got City Planning... you get the idea. This was very much an anti-Neilkaz game as I built research facilities late in any given planet's building cycle, instead growing my pop and then running lots of scientists on every planet that wasn't Rich or Ultra Rich.

This worked surprisingly well, as I relatively quickly reached 2k and then 3k research per turn. It also had the unexpected effect of making me financially well off, something I'm not used to playing Unification. I never had to raise taxes except during a couple emergencies when I had to build planetary defenses ASAP.

I did seem to get very inept opponents, who only kept slightly ahead of me in tech (though again, maybe I was just doing better than usual) and even in the 250ish turns were attacking me with smaller fleets than I am used to at that stage. (Later they got better, but by then I had late game tech.)

Also it helped that, not being Repulsive, I managed to get some treaties. Only one of my 3 neighbours refused treaties, was growing more and more hostile, so I built a fleet and... they asked for a non-agg pact. Was it me having a fleet, or was it them being Erratic? I don't really know how these AIs work, someone explain! Anyway, this slowly raised our relations and I got the other two treaties later. So until turn 222 I had peace, then I got framed and two races attacked me (very ineptly).

This brings me to...

Remarks on Proton Torpedoes
(Haven't looked into and aren't interested in looking into the other two torpedoes, because I was looking at the PTs purely as a competitor to Beams as a first strike weapon. But some of the issues obviously carry over.)

* Fire every other turn - this puts them in a very unstable place regarding balance. Because the damage is so front-loaded (you do 2 turns worth of damage instantly), if they are good, they are very good, but otherwise you end up getting shot at twice before you can do anything again. So no matter what you do as a modder, in some games they will rule and in others they will struggle.
* Are a late game tech - they only get good at Interphase Drives, due to getting all 3 mods (ECCM, Overloaded, Enveloping). And Sensors are pretty high too.
* Vulnerable to jamming and lightning fields. Require researching Sensors to semi-reliably hit targets with good missile defense such as the Guardian, even with ECCM mod. Requiring high miniaturisation to have enough to overcome tough targets with lightning fields.
* Don't require computers - although using Proton Torpedoes for First Strike effect does require high initiative, but at least Refining the torpedoes gets you good drives for that
* Don't strike me as that space-efficient, overall. I needed 10-12 Doom Stars with 21 each (2-refined, fully modified) and good ship officers, to kill a Meklars' Star Fortress with good techs (Xentronium, Lightning Field, Heavy Armor, Energy Absorber. Was in a Nebula so no shields.) Even with those techs, I am not convinced it should take that many.
* have a limited range - this killed my plans to make ships with PTs and some point defense weapons and just run back and play artillery, like with Stellar Converters. I guess that's fair.
* Don't trigger Reflection Fields, so I am looking forward to seeing them perform against Antarans - haven't got there yet.

To sum up, right now it seems to me they are not a reliable choice for a race who's having trouble keeping up with tech. They are great even in mid game against races lacking certain key tech (jamming, lightning fields). Otherwise you need high miniaturisation and Sensors, which makes them merely a late game gimmick for when you want something other than beams.

I do feel they are a bit weak currently, all things considered. But upping their space efficiency runs the risk of an overly powerful first strike weapon - though how much of a problem that is when they are a late game weapon that competes with beams, I'm not sure. Or perhaps changing them to fire every turn would be a good idea after all, purely from a balancing perspective - although I'd hate to lose the current Moo2 flavor! Torn on this issue.

EDIT: after thinking about it - and testing all 3 torpedo types on Antarans - I'd just decrease their space and see what happens, if people start to use it. My revised recs are a 20% reduction: 20->16, 30->24, 50->40, that way Antimater stays slightly more powerful until 5th miniaturisation, just like it is now. Enough to make a bit of a difference, but not enough to make them an overly easy beam equivalent.

(What would really be ideal is if you could keep the current space-effectiveness, but lower them all in the tech tree, so they'd miniaturise earlier. But that would completely not work with the technologies being named what they are.)

 

[Dukinson]

I remember when I first got this game in 1996. Moo1 was the first strategy game I played on the computer and I couldn't wait to play 2. When I got it, I spent hours trying to design the perfect ships. It wasn't more than 3 days after I had the game that I was designing ships completely loaded with 2 shot missiles and retreating them before attacking again the next turn. 3 days with no internet as we know it today, no good strategy guides other than what was in the strategy guide I purchased at the time. That's how broken missiles were... and still are.

The problem to me can be solved as I've had a long time to think about it. The F-22 Raptor, the most powerful fighter jet world has a payload capable of carrying many missiles and bombs with a built in vulcan machine gun. If it had just one type of weapon, our enemies would learn to focus on that weapon and perhaps counter it. The same should apply to Moo2.

If a vessel has nothing but missiles, it should be counterable. As it stands, missiles are too accurate, perhaps too small and the counter solutions aren't good enough. Ecm jammers should be lighter (perhaps more jammy) and the missiles themselves should either be less accurate and or take up more space. You did reduce their hitpoints and this may sound crazy coming from me, I think you should restore them and weaken the missiles in the areas I mentioned. If someone uses a ship with missiles, they should feel compelled to have some alternative weapons if they are countered, as the F-22 is ready for.

 

[Dukinson]

Another change you might want to make is their expense. Missiles traditionally are very expensive, bullets are much cheaper. So one or more of these areas missiles could be affected:

-Expense
-Size
-Accuracy
-Increased Jamming technology (decreased size or jamming level)
-Decreased scanner evasion reduction

-Hit Points? (Not advised if you change them in other ways, there will already be less of them and if there are less of them with fewer hitpoints, they may become too easy to deal with. Additionally, the AI doesn't always aim for them or have time to aim for them, making hit point reduction an insufficient nurf if done alone)

 

[Markus Ramikin]

What do you mean by accuracy? Unless I'm missing something, Missiles always hit. Well, unless jammed.

Anyway. Nuke native values are nothing special. Are you taking into account refinement? Part of what makes Nuclear Missiles great is that people tend to use them at 3-4 levels of refinement, due to the common tech path for pollution techs and armor. Which is how it's supposed to be, refinement makes weapons great. If you get Fusion Beams or Mass Drivers and then refine them 4 times in the early game and go kill someone, they'll perform nicely too - it's just not an optimal teching path for other reasons.

Hm, might be worth trying actually, with a Tolerant race...

EDIT: started a FeudTol race, with +Ship Attack

 

[Dukinson]

It's my understanding that missiles have built in targeting computers that ADD to your existing combat computer technology. If I'm right on this, it's one of the big reasons missiles are so deadly.

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Hm no, that was Moo1. "...and are controlled by a +1 level targetting computer". But in Moo2 only beams work with computers (against beam defense), while for missiles "targetting computers" are the tachyon/neutron scanners and Sensors, and they work against missile evasion. So if you have the Guardian with, what does it have, 180 ME? Sensors take off 80, ECCM halves it to 50, you're gonna hit half the time regardless of computer tech or which missile you're using.

So missiles always hit (jamming aside) but they can be destroyed by beam fire, PD defense, lightning fields, pulsars, explosions etc while beams are instant and unstoppable in flight, but they have an accuracy (ship's Beam Attack) which is lowered by distance, ship size etc., and they can be Reflected.

_____________

Agreeing with everyone who says Repulsive needs to be -12. Though that might mean another pick would need to be made -9 for continued easy matching for -21. Perhaps -Growth?

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War Reports!

My first FeulTol which was a proof-of-concept rush job was awesome. Built two BBs with 47 mass drives each and went to town on enemy star bases and fleets. I imagine a beam-oriented empire could have punished me for not having Zortium.. on the up side, I don't need Warp Dissipator to prevent fleets from escaping me

Gonna play a proper game with the same race now.

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My second game saw me blitzed by Silicoids in... I think the 50s, before I could get a colony ship built, let alone a fleet. I did get a few small ships out but they weren't enough. Man, that sucked.
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Third game! Slight changes. Got rid of the Ship Attack. It's nice, but I'll use it with a Democracy start some time rather than this.

FeudTol+F+P+S,RAHW / -Growth

Spawned on the north edge. 3 hostile planets in system. Colonised 2, the third was HeavyG so with my morale penalty it would leave me at 1 production, not worth it.

First colony ship at turn 66. Why am I playing Feudal again instead of something I know how to play?

A few farmable planets around, nothing special. Gonna try the usual, fill them with scientists (yes, I know about the penalty, but still, research labs alone aren't enough for me) and have the HW produce ships.

Contacts: Darloks to the south, Elerians to the southeast, and Mrrshans to the far southeast. All of them had hostile personalities - Darloks were Repulsive - and I got no treaties at all despite not being Repulsive.

I set myself on killing the Darloks as soon as I could get a few good ships up. I built 3 destroyers for deterrence purposes and put them on the southmost system, which wouldn't get a fighter base for a while yet.

Imagine my surprise when it was the Elerians who proved the enemy. First they demanded a system, so after I said no I immediately moved my fleet to the vulnerable system in their direction.

Of course with Nuclear Drives, I was way too late, and the Elerians began a Danse Macabre in my empire with a Cruiser and Destroyer. They mind controlled 3 systems from under me until I finally killed the Cruiser with a Fighter Base. I did make mistakes setting targets in the first system, in the second one I managed to kill the destroyer, and only the third one finally stopped this nonsense.

By then I had level 3 refined Mass Drivers (whyyyyyyy don't they get autofire? ) and was completing my first warships with those. Sorry, I forget the exact turns, but I built 2 BBs.

Besides the usual (Augs, Bpods, BScanner) I also put Inertial Stabilisers on those. This gave me a practical immunity to beam fire, while 27 mass drivers gave me an immunity to fighters and missiles. I also wanted Shields III for margin of error (and more mass drivers per ship), as I had no armor researched, but this war happened too fast for me. With my techy race I'd have a way better ship.

But this sufficed. I just spammed transports and retook my planets, then took the Elerian ones. Enemy ships died before they could hyper out. Bases were waited out to miss their first beams, then I killed the missiles and fighters from fighter bases in flight and killed the star bases. Ordnance officer helped.

Is it just me, or do Conquered Elerians look like they're doing Gangnam Style?

It is now turn 155: Mrrshans beat me to the last planet, Draconis. Oh well, at least the war's over. The north-northeast corner is mine anyway, I got Shield III by now and closing in on Zortium, and I have a Hydra guarding a Gaia to kill.

After that maybe I'll go for Darloks after all. Can't sit here afraid of their first strike all game...

Then again, both Mrrshans are Stealthy Ships and both are being hostile. So perhaps I don't have that much of a future in this Galaxy. But, even if the darkness takes me, I will be able to say: "at least I had fun..."

 

[Markus Ramikin]

War update!

Yep, something like 2 turns after my defeat of the Elerians, Mrsshans... demanded a system, then attacked when I didn't give it. Sounds familiar?

I had to wait for my two new BBs with Shields III to arrive, becausse Mrrshan fleet was a lot more dangerous than Elerian was. After that it was a repeat of the previous war, except I had a lot more missiles to shoot down due to Missile Bases. I had to kill those missile bases fast!

Halfway through Mrrshan territory, killing entire waves of fleet after fleet (where do they get the production for that? They werent even Feudal...), Hyperspace Beast started lurking.

Then shortly after, Hyperspace Flux hit.

Then in 196, Trans-Dimensional Darloks declared war and invaded.

Hah.

I even killed their initial invading BB, but nevertheless it was game over right there. They'd been running away with the game this whole time, with huge pop, fleet and tech, while I was busy killing the useless Mrsshans, who occupied territory I didn't even want to have to begin with.

And on that note, is Stealthy Ships right at only 4 picks? It may not be much for the player in single player games, but - like +Growth - some picks should be valued by how dangerous they are in the hands of Ai, and I think this is one of them.

Also, I hate those deliberately uneven races. There's a point to difficulty settings... they give players control.

__________________________

Does anyone here play Dictatorship races in IceX? If so, what sort of concepts do you build them around? Seems to me like such a pointless government, no multiplier to anything...

 

[Rocco.40]

Love the War updates!
Yes, I also read your small fonts...

-- Dictatorship is indeed a difficult government.
But in addition to earlier mentioned two war races (with the SA bonus), you can also construct and try:
Dict, Litho, Subt, L/R/A HW.
Should give reasonable performance.

 

[Rocco.40]

Ah two more that i think of now:

you could make a cyber/tol combo.
Cyber for less food, Tol for the increased need of prod instead of food:
Dict, Cyber, Tol, P+2, Pop+50, Large HW

or just a fun race:
Dict, Cyber, Tol, P+2, High-G, GC +10.
(tip: research Tractor Beams instead of Grav generator!)

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Love the War updates!

Spoiler :

Man, I absolutely love those early beam ships. Playing a Uni game this time, because this is something I kinda-sorta know how to play, for a change. 3 BBs with Class III + Intertial Stabiliser + Lotsa Mass Drivers = effective immunity to Klakon Star Base + Missile Base + 2 BBs. There is no risk of running out of ammo and having to come back later, prolonging campaigns, or worse, getting trapped by a Warp Dissipator.

Just gotta remember to bring a couple bombs, in case the enemy gets Shield III, or worse, Radiation.

The only trouble is that you /still/ want to dip into the Chemistry tree eventually, for better cells (had to research Iridium to reach Kholdan!) and armor. So doing something like this requires spending more research points to get to roughly the same place as with Nukes. This isn't because Nukes are somehow better, tech levels being equal, but again, because optimal research paths enforce Nuke miniaturisation regardless, making early beams redundant.

Perhaps at some point I should try the usual path with Chemistry and Nukes, and then researching Class III Shield and switching to beams... from then it's a relatively short hop to Gauss Cannons.

EDIT:

Why did I used to say beam awesomeness only happens in late game?
3 BBs vs 10 BBs + assorted junk
mass drivers vs fighters.
A most enjoyable battle this was, having ships retreat and give each other cover fire, until all fighters (and it was a swarm!) were destroyed.

EDIT 2:

Random thought borne out of staring at the Industry screen in a High Gravity colony for too long:

"What Government giveth, Gravity taketh away."

(I continue claiming that Rocco is crazy when he says some of us play Moo too much.)

 

[Dukinson]

Hm no, that was Moo1. "...and are controlled by a +1 level targetting computer". But in Moo2 only beams work with computers (against beam defense), while for missiles "targetting computers" are the tachyon/neutron scanners and Sensors, and they work against missile evasion. So if you have the Guardian with, what does it have, 180 ME? Sensors take off 80, ECCM halves it to 50, you're gonna hit half the time regardless of computer tech or which missile you're using.

Ah I wasn't sure. I did indeed mix the two up. Perhaps sensors shouldn't strip so much missile defense, another possibility on making missiles weaker.

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Mini-report:

Nothing like having 175-195 beam defense on my ships, using mostly mass drivers still, facing a vastly numerically superior Silicoid fleet with Plasma Cannons... and 75 beam attack.

In early 200s.

Based on techs I got with Unification.

I think I'm winning this game.

Edit: yes, yes I did.

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After all the games I've played with and without Creative over the last month or two, I am starting to think that the AI is just mostly random. Sometimes I have 2 diplomat officers, plus give away 4-5 techs (that I don't think will particularly hurt me to give away), and still 2/3 of the nonrepulsives in the game don't accept any treaties despite relations being high or even max. Sometimes i'm noncreative and I get most treaties I want normally, even though the other guy isn't Pacifist, and most of the rest by gifting 1 tech. Sometimes I have a good fleet and still my approval rating slides down like I'm an easy target. Sometimes I'm Repulsive and running a skeleton fleet and everyone leaves me alone anyway.

AIs just confuse me.
____________________

Phase shifter is kinda cool... almost redundant, but not quite.

____________________

I can't decide if the pilot in the intro is a badass dude who just doesn't give any fks - reminds me of the guy with the flamer in the Dark Crusade intro - or the pilot suit automatically administers panic drugs or something.
<Bored monotone> Beginning my attack now.
*fearlessly strafes at alien abominations in a dinky outdated oversized fighter*

 

[neilkaz]

Yes, missiles for most of us are the way to go early on, especially in Ice with Fighters moved deeper into the tech tree. But compared to Vanilla (1.31 or 1.40) Rocco has nerfed them.

Since I came back to this game a few years ago and learned how to play well, I've always been a missile player. The requirement to now have 3 levels of chem tech to MIRV is significant. Nukes are take up a bit more space and are easier to shoot down now.

Lets compare my typical BB that I'd make in Vanilla vs Ice once I got 4 levels of chem tech...ie Z-armor.

My BB's would have BP's and that means 375 space. I'd use 50 for RHulls for safety reasons and so I could charge forward and then shoot if desired. That leaves 325 space for missiles. At this point all missiles are fully mod but not EMG.

So in Vanilla I could build a Nuke 36 or a Merc 18 (18 MIRV Mercs) but in Ice, I can only build a Nuke 27 as Nukes need more space and I can't MIRV Mercs until I research a 4500 rp cost tech! To me this is a significant but needed nerf.

The usual issues are the same, and that is that the player needs fuel cell techs and armor techs so he researches chem techs making missiles the early weapon of choice.

The issues with beams and especially for non-creatives are that you need a decent computer and you also need to be able to built ships that can stand up a few turns in battle rather than just shoot twice and scoot.

Markus is playing a few games with early Mass Drivers. Going that route at least means shielding techs and inertial stabilizer if desired. I await Marcus' continued findings.

A way to boost beams would be to have the Battle Scanner be +50 rather than +25, but my concerns are that this makes the SB even tougher to defeat as its beams are more effective and this can also mean that AI's will find it tougher to defeat other AI SB's. Wars and planet changes between AI's are an essential component of a good game.