[MoO] ICEMOD: mod design, race design, strategies

[Dukinson]

Have any of you guys had this thing with IceX where a race appears as Repulsive in the Info listing, but you can actually do standard diplomacy with it? Specifically Bulrathi, for me.

Maybe they had a spare picks and dropped repulsive with evo mutation?

 

[Markus Ramikin]

However, I am honestly OK with leaving all this as it is in v10n.

In the end I'd be fine with that too. IF we got the computer to research Fields more and have Stabilizers more, then I'd be much more strongly in favor of the change I proposed, because then it would benefit the AI too.

Check out the other thread, I made a walkthrough too

_________________________________________________
With all the BA vs BD balancing conversation lately, I felt like doing some...

Empirical testing of range to-hit penalties

I used a hotseat game, gave both sides all techs, built a Doom Star with 500 Mass Drivers with 1 damage each (edited with OCL Improved) and Hyper-X, so that it could do 1000 shots of 1 damage each, in one round. Mass Drivers for no damage dissipation, so the amount of damage would also work as an exact count of hits.

The target Doom Star had advanced repair, no shield, a Stabilizer, and random weapons to weigh it down to where I wanted it.

I count distance as the number of empty space between the ships, so that when they're next to each other I call that 0 distance.
Then 23 is max range for non-heavy-mount weapons.
27 is the distance at the start of a battle.

Dunno if that matters, but I made sure they were always facing each other.

150 BA vs 150 BD

dist   5 rounds,each 1k shots   avg dmg
0       624 598 617 599 619     61,14%
1       604 610 608 626 593     60,82%
2       599 606 605 583 629     60,44%

3       524 492 531 496 524     51,34%
4       517 514 525 514 519     51,78%
5       537 538 493 533 522     52,46%

6       401 401 411 434 418     41,3%
7       407 396 432 417 416     41,36%
8       417 446 399 431 407     42%

9       323 324 294 307 319     31,34%
[...]
23       59  63  65  59  68     6,28%

So interestingly, at no point did I get a genuine 50% despite BA = BD; I don't wanna do the math but the +1, +2% at 3-5 range doesn't feel like statistical error. The other nearby ranges also look like multiples of 10%, plus 1-2%.

Still, if the BA vs BD table from this faq is correct-ish, then it looks roughly like the "neutral" range for BA vs BD is 3-5, and every 3 squares closer or farther counts as +10 or -10 BA.

I quickly tested if this holds up if I lower the BD, by building another target with 120 BD.
The prediction was that with 150% BA vs 120% BD it would give me the 51% result at 12 range, and indeed this was confirmed.
At 0 range I got over 90%.
At 15 range, which should be equivalent to -10% BA, I repeatedly got something around 35%, not the expected 41%, so I guess it's still not that simple.

Still, good to know. Anyone more mathematically minded (or more patient) than I am, feel free to take this further.

EDIT: Neilkaz suggested testing with Rangemaster. Just gonna do quick tests and post only the relevant thresholds:

150 BA vs 150 BD, with Rangemaster Unit

0   602     60,2%
14  627     62,7%

15  494     49,4%
23  511     51,1%

150 BA vs 120 BD, with Rangemaster Unit

0   892     89,2%
14  886     88,6%

15  824     82,4%
23  810     81%

The Rangemaster is very powerful indeed, it seems.

Lastly,
Heavy Mount, 150 BA vs 150 BD.
(BTW, seems ship building values can be misleading. The 150% of 1 damage shows as 1 damage in ship building, but 2 in actual combat.)

0   1852    92,6
8   1828    91,4

9   1580    79
14  1608    80,4

15  1364    68,2
20  1430    71,5

21  1210    60,5
26  1242    62,1

27  1022    51,1
[...]
44  706     35,3

 

[neilkaz]

@ Markus,

If you could, please repeat this test with Range Master Unit added to the attacking DS.

It would be nice to see exactly what RMU does.

Thx .. neilkaz ..

 

[Markus Ramikin]

@ Markus,

If you could, please repeat this test with Range Master Unit added to the attacking DS.

It would be nice to see exactly what RMU does.

Thx .. neilkaz ..

Good call! Added results to the previous post. Also did HV.

Maybe they had a spare picks and dropped repulsive with evo mutation?

Interesting idea, but the racial info screen does reflect Mutation, like it does when you get Warlord or Omniscient.

Just did a quick test with a cheat code to get all techs, and Mutated a repulsive race to lose that pick (I had to click on Charismatic first because it wouldn't let me remove it directly). That removed the "repulsive" from my info screen. So I figure that wasn't it.

Another test: loaded the turn 0 save and cheated my way into early contact, when they couldn't have mutation yet. Nope, can still do diplo.

My current guess is that maybe races weren't meant to have that many racial picks...

 

[Rocco.40]

My current guess is that maybe races weren't meant to have that many racial picks...

No this is not reason. On top of stock design you can mod up to 8 extra abilities. It is a simple table. I have designed the Rep Buls to become non-Rep when they mutate. Perhaps in some weird way this might cause problems. (just guessing out loud)
However I cannot replicate this issue on my machine.

 

[Rocco.40]

About the test:
Where were you testing?
On neutral ground or at somebody's colony?


Tables from code:

001F3EA9 _ranged_to_hit_penalty

00 -10 -20 -30 -40 -55 -70 -85
0-2 3-5 6-8 9-11 12-14 15-17 18-20 21-23
0-8 9-14 15-20 21-26 27-32 33-38 39-44 45-50

 

[Markus Ramikin]

In an empty system. What would a colony change?

Yeah, that table looks right, with the sharper dropoff after 12-14.

How did you extract it? If 001F3EA9 is an absolute address, I only find zeroes there with xvi32.

No this is not reason. On top of stock design you can mod up to 8 extra abilities. It is a simple table. I have designed the Rep Buls to become non-Rep when they mutate. Perhaps in some weird way this might cause problems. (just guessing out loud)
However I cannot replicate this issue on my machine.

Even with the savegame I sent you in PM? Or only with new starts?

__________________

Do you guys ever go for beam ships with non-creative non-democracies? What computer do you go for?

When I tried that with Electronic, my ability to shoot down missiles was basically gone, even with PD. But you have to either forgo Supercomputer or Autolabs...

__________________

Also, remind me what game mechanic is responsible for missiles being harder to hit? Does Size factor in directly? or is it only speed.

 

[Rocco.40]

001F3EA9 is an absolute address

Ah sorry Markus, I am so used to posting this stuff in 1.31 coding .. ice coding and vdc coding are different and are based on the 1.40 fan patch.
the code for ice is: 1FBEE9

How did you extract it?

If you are interested in digging more into this stuff, I have a ton of notes that I can share ..

Even with the savegame

Yes in your savegame I could see the 'non-repulsive' Repulsive Buls.
Somehow your savegame got an error in that it shows Repulsive on screen, but in the code they are actually not Repulsive. Baffled by it -- no explanation.

Do you guys ever go for beam ships with non-creative non-democracies?

If I play a rush game-
Not sure if there is a clear definition for rush games, but this is how I have defined it:
Build as much ECO as possible until the 900RP computer field is reached, where I would chose the +75 Comp and then it is almost building ships only and Full Out War with anyone that happens to be around.
(Note that I would rarely have CLIII shield at that point).
A fun but risky strategy: if war gets protracted with your neighbours then another a.i. can runaway.

More general speaking: At any point in the computers branch, where I would chose a computer over the economy pick is defining the point where I am getting ready for beam ships war.

For missiles, I think it is only speed (for beams).

 

[Rocco.40]

In an empty system. What would a colony change?

There was a bug in classic 1.31/1.40 whereby the defending party got +10 BA when defending their outposts or colonies that had no star base.
I 'accidently' removed the bug in ice, as I was at first unaware the bug existed at all
But I never fully tested it in a combat, with a similar set-up as you have chosen above.
Excellent testing by the way.

 

[Rocco.40]

Well, the picks should be balanced. Whatever advantage a human has in picks, the AI should have them too, yes?

Missed this question.
On Hard and Impossible levels the only restriction in a.i. design is that you can add max 8 extra traits. The pick value of these traits have no influence.
You can add "Pop100%+Prod2+Cash1+Tol+Crea+Litho+Tele+Uni" etc. to any race.
(if you would like such opponents)

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Excellent testing by the way.

Thank you.

There was a bug in classic 1.31/1.40 whereby the defending party got +10 BA when defending their outposts or colonies that had no star base.
I 'accidently' removed the bug in ice, as I was at first unaware the bug existed at all
But I never fully tested it in a combat, with a similar set-up as you have chosen above.

Just checked, defending an unguarded colony as well as attacking one. No changes; looks like the bug is indeed gone.

For missiles, I think it is only speed (for beams).

Hm. Missiles have effectively 10 speed, if what OCL_Improved_GUI shows me is to be trusted, +4 for Fast.... that's a mere 70 Beam Defense. *headscratch*

I just checked firing 99 of my modified 1-damage Mass Drivers at 50 missiles with Fast modifier. I have 150 BA. The BA-BD chart shows that should be 97% accuracy.

Nuclear missiles work as expected, 33 dying to 99 1-damage shots. That's even better than expected, since it's 100% accuracy.

Merculites too, 10 dying to one salvo...

Pulsons only lose 4 per salvo, despite supposedly having 12 hitpoints. Should be 8, no?

Zeons, I only killed 1 missile in first salvo, 2 in second, 1 in third, 2 in fourth. Zeons have 15 hitpoints, so I should be killing 6...

What's going on? All the missiles do physically travel at the same speed, so it's not that Zeons and Pulsons have some secret speed bonus... secret BD bonus?

EDIT: Tested by adding Battle Scanner for 200 BA.

Vs Pulsons: 8 destroyed on first salvo

vs Zeons: 5

Yep, there's gotta be some kind of BD bonus on the better missiles.

 

[Rocco.40]

For missiles, I think it is only speed (for beams).

Correction/add: drive techs also make missiles fly faster, so also increases defense.

+ you can also test with a modded Mauler as it always hits

 

[Markus Ramikin]

How do you test BD with a weapon that always hits?

And okay, that would make the total BD in that situation higher, but still there's a clear progression that can't rely on drives alone...

 

[Rocco.40]

Just suggested the Mauler coz your test revealed some new unexplained delta's.
Because Maulers always hit you can test purely the hitpoints of missile, excluding a BD effect.

 

[Dukinson]

Missed this question.
On Hard and Impossible levels the only restriction in a.i. design is that you can add max 8 extra traits. The pick value of these traits have no influence.
You can add "Pop100%+Prod2+Cash1+Tol+Crea+Litho+Tele+Uni" etc. to any race.
(if you would like such opponents)

Well, I assumed you were balancing them out by their pick values even if you weren't forced to.

 

[Dukinson]

There was a bug in classic 1.31/1.40 whereby the defending party got +10 BA when defending their outposts or colonies that had no star base.
I 'accidently' removed the bug in ice, as I was at first unaware the bug existed at all
But I never fully tested it in a combat, with a similar set-up as you have chosen above.
Excellent testing by the way.

Maybe this was meant to be a moral bonus of sorts. Think about the phase "home team advantage" when it comes to sports. Teams playing in their stadium literally do better.

Also, isn't this bonus larger when there is a star base?

 

[Rocco.40]

Maybe this was meant to be a moral bonus of sorts.

I thought something like this for a while.
But since my coding skills improved I have looked at the relevant code and the outpost and colony without base somehow accidentally got the Battlestation +10 bonus, so it is a real bug.
Star Bases get no bonus.

 

[Dukinson]

I was thinking of a compromise solution for the "SA Dilemma". +10 boost boost to all computers (from vanilla values), -10 reduction of battle scanners in strength with -20% in size and move BS a little bit up the tech tree. Maybe at 650 like stabilizers? Also there's a huge gap in that tree between tachyon and neutron techs. Put tachyon scanners a singleton at 250 (no one picks it anyways) and tach com with battlescanners at 650. Weakening missiles should be part of this too. Ofcourse you know I would rather see the weakening of early game missiles exclusively and heavily. I would like to see players saying "I use fighters now!" Or some other tech that is overshadowed by missiles and battlescanner directed beams.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Oh I promise sir, I surely do not. It's nutty how fast they trade. Example: It's a problem if someone gets to Orion before I do. First turn, they take Orion. Second turn or third turn, everyone has death rays including whomever I may be at war with. It usually makes me laugh. Perhaps they all stole death rays with spys successfully on the next turn, but it's more likely they traded it. They don't need proper fuel cells, they just piggy back it from race to race until everyone has it. Most of the time in my games, every race has eachothers tech aside from a "tech leader" which has so many good techs, the others have nothing to barter with. The tech leader will only trade their valuable techs later on as other races develop more material. This leader is usually my spy target once I'm done robbing everyone else.

I'm often doing combat close to turn 100, unless I do not use repulsive. Then I can just sit back casually and decide when and who to fight.

Aside from that I think that Death Rays as tech are (at least in late game) more of a Trojan Horse by ruining your non-designable planetary defense (no miniaturization), I think Dukinson has a point with the AI tech trading - it feels too much for me as well. Spying, requesting, demanding and conquering techs adds to the pile. Not without a reason both Civ4 and 5 went the route of restricting respective (optionally) disabling tech brokering or even trading.

Moo2 sadly has no such confortable options; there are only the command lines ones, but sadly the one "no tech trade" only forbids tech trading for the human player...

 

[Rocco.40]

* have found bug causing Markus Bulrathi-Repulsive issue *
will fix for ice 10p