[MoO] ICEMOD: mod design, race design, strategies
- Thread starter Rocco.40
- Start date
Dukinson
Warlord
I've been playing some tactical games. I tried to exploit missiles as much as I could and found, they are pretty well nurfed now. Infact, I was quite irritated but the accuracy of beams in my very first battle at turn 100. I had a superior fleet size wise, but they went first with their ridiculous +140 ship attack (not mrrshan) and wiped out half of my ships in the first round from clear across the screen at the starting position with neutron beams. All they had otherwise was the computers and battlescanners they started turn 1 with. My fast mirv nukes never had a chance. This is ofcourse partially good in that missiles aren't the end all anymore.
I would ask, with missiles weakened, is it really necessary to have so much early ship attack? Now we have both free battlescanners and boosted ship attack. It's just nuts. You say that ship attack is important because of initiative. This has never been more true with the way ship attack is handed out in bulk. It's now monstrously important that you strike first as you can destroy fleets from the starting position with pinpoint accuracy from the start of the game. It seems to me there is only one way to design a ship now from start to end of the game. All ship attack and beams. You simply must go first. Before in vanilla, it wasn't so crucial. Even later on. At least later on you could have heavy defenses to counteract an opponents initiative.
I would ask, with missiles weakened, is it really necessary to have so much early ship attack? Now we have both free battlescanners and boosted ship attack. It's just nuts. You say that ship attack is important because of initiative. This has never been more true with the way ship attack is handed out in bulk. It's now monstrously important that you strike first as you can destroy fleets from the starting position with pinpoint accuracy from the start of the game. It seems to me there is only one way to design a ship now from start to end of the game. All ship attack and beams. You simply must go first. Before in vanilla, it wasn't so crucial. Even later on. At least later on you could have heavy defenses to counteract an opponents initiative.
Rocco.40
King
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what I will do, as intended for 10p:
battle scanner stays free at pre warp for +50
computers to vanilla +25, xx, +75, +100, +125 and the 'new' +150.
i will use the update to double the chances for good events for the Lucky trait.
Perhaps we can all experiment with that a bit to see if it makes sense for the 2 picks it costs now
battle scanner stays free at pre warp for +50
computers to vanilla +25, xx, +75, +100, +125 and the 'new' +150.
i will use the update to double the chances for good events for the Lucky trait.
Perhaps we can all experiment with that a bit to see if it makes sense for the 2 picks it costs now
Rocco.40
King
- Joined
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- 652
UP
tx Dukinson for pointing out the issue.
now let's playyyy
------------
BTW, I have an interesting race for you to play:
SD+50, SA+50, Trans-Di, Warlord. P+2 and Artifacts World. Negatives: Low-G and Repulsive.
Research the Labs, Factory, Fusion Drive and Hydro Farms, Deuterium Fuel Cells, and Physics up to Tachyon.
Then build Laser Cannon Cruisers, Outpost to the enemy and EN GARDE!
I had some fun games already.
tx Dukinson for pointing out the issue.
now let's playyyy
------------
BTW, I have an interesting race for you to play:
SD+50, SA+50, Trans-Di, Warlord. P+2 and Artifacts World. Negatives: Low-G and Repulsive.
Research the Labs, Factory, Fusion Drive and Hydro Farms, Deuterium Fuel Cells, and Physics up to Tachyon.
Then build Laser Cannon Cruisers, Outpost to the enemy and EN GARDE!
I had some fun games already.
Dukinson
Warlord
So you'll have 6 targeting computers? Interesting.
Otherwise, battlescanner is a problem tech. Anything seen as so important it simply must be used is certainly imbalanced. I think weakening it is the smartest move. I also think early access to it is also a problem. It's powerful, so powerful it must be free. It should be weakened and moved far up enough the tree that by the time you get it, its impact isn't so great. If targeting computers are so important, shouldn't one be forced to research them? The problem has classically been, you could get battlescanners and ignore targeting computers for the research technologies they were in competition with. If you really need targeting so bad, maybe you should be forced to choose. Gamble on economy, or play it safe with ship offense.
When your base computer is 25 and you have access to something that triples your targeting, I can see how everyone would feel the need to use it. If you already had +75 or so by the time it was available for research and it only gave +40 or so, maybe you wouldn't feel the dire need to possess it. Or, perhaps keep it at +50 and just move it far up enough to where that isn't such a large bonus either.
Otherwise, battlescanner is a problem tech. Anything seen as so important it simply must be used is certainly imbalanced. I think weakening it is the smartest move. I also think early access to it is also a problem. It's powerful, so powerful it must be free. It should be weakened and moved far up enough the tree that by the time you get it, its impact isn't so great. If targeting computers are so important, shouldn't one be forced to research them? The problem has classically been, you could get battlescanners and ignore targeting computers for the research technologies they were in competition with. If you really need targeting so bad, maybe you should be forced to choose. Gamble on economy, or play it safe with ship offense.
When your base computer is 25 and you have access to something that triples your targeting, I can see how everyone would feel the need to use it. If you already had +75 or so by the time it was available for research and it only gave +40 or so, maybe you wouldn't feel the dire need to possess it. Or, perhaps keep it at +50 and just move it far up enough to where that isn't such a large bonus either.
Dukinson
Warlord
Np, I thought you were buttering me up with repaired warlord to trick me into super targeting computers!
I'll try that race, sounds interesting. That certainly is a race light on eco picks. If I don't kill, I will run out of steam fast.
Rocco.40
King
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2015
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Yes, it is an all or nothing race.
But your ships will be seriously dominant in early game.
If you succeed in getting your first neighbour, things will look good.
If you struggle with first race you encounter, it means trouble.
That's why I think it is fun.
About the Battle Scanner: much has been said about it and yes in a way it is a troubled tech.
I have considered to give it a nerf to +25 and just some days ago my proposal of making it +30, with the rebalanced computers that so unfortunately popped up in ice 10p.
Current situation is that all computers are at vanilla values, with the exception of +50comp that has been removed and a +150 compu that has been added all the way at the end of the tree.
Battle Scanner is free for all, of which I still see the effects as follows:
For human player this was the must pick tech in the Tachyon field.
Now, a human player suddenly can chose between the tachyon scanner or comms.
No change for us.
Well, except that BS is already some levels more miniaturized so it takes up less space when the action starts. That is good for both a.i. and us.
But your ships will be seriously dominant in early game.
If you succeed in getting your first neighbour, things will look good.
If you struggle with first race you encounter, it means trouble.
That's why I think it is fun.
About the Battle Scanner: much has been said about it and yes in a way it is a troubled tech.
I have considered to give it a nerf to +25 and just some days ago my proposal of making it +30, with the rebalanced computers that so unfortunately popped up in ice 10p.
Current situation is that all computers are at vanilla values, with the exception of +50comp that has been removed and a +150 compu that has been added all the way at the end of the tree.
Battle Scanner is free for all, of which I still see the effects as follows:
For human player this was the must pick tech in the Tachyon field.
Now, a human player suddenly can chose between the tachyon scanner or comms.
No change for us.
Well, except that BS is already some levels more miniaturized so it takes up less space when the action starts. That is good for both a.i. and us.
Markus Ramikin
Justicar
I'm confused. Isn't that what 10n was already?
Not that there's anything wrong with that. I just thought you had other things "intended for 10p".
Rocco.40
King
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2015
- Messages
- 652
Yes we are back to 10n in terms of computers.
At the time we discussed the options of different targeting computer bonusses, I actually made 2 test mods (for 'internal use') with your option and my option to compare with the old 10n situation.
I decided to leave computers as is for now, because I launched 10p early to fix the Bulrathi bug.
But accidentally it was released with the computers set at +50, +80 etc AND the battle scanner still at +50 and not +30 as intended to go with the +50, +80 system. So that needed a fix.
Used the opportunity to increase good events chances for Lucky, so we can test if it has an effect.
At the time we discussed the options of different targeting computer bonusses, I actually made 2 test mods (for 'internal use') with your option and my option to compare with the old 10n situation.
I decided to leave computers as is for now, because I launched 10p early to fix the Bulrathi bug.
But accidentally it was released with the computers set at +50, +80 etc AND the battle scanner still at +50 and not +30 as intended to go with the +50, +80 system. So that needed a fix.
Used the opportunity to increase good events chances for Lucky, so we can test if it has an effect.
Markus Ramikin
Justicar
Evidently my fingers think this game is called IcemodX and was made by Rocco.
Hello!
Thank you for your mod!
But... Now maximum RP is 32767 points per race. It looks like Microprose bug: their programmers used signed integer variable (2-bytes one) wich has range [−32767,+32767]
Is it possible to change this behaviour? For example to long integer? [−2147483647,+2147483647]
32767 is very small value for big race with much of planets and reachable very easy. It is crap because such race can research much more "advanced" technologies compared to "32767" limited one.
BTW _at least_ maybe possible change variable type from "int" to "unsigned int" ? After that value range would [0,65535] wich is 2 times more than current one...
Thank you for your mod!
But... Now maximum RP is 32767 points per race. It looks like Microprose bug: their programmers used signed integer variable (2-bytes one) wich has range [−32767,+32767]
Is it possible to change this behaviour? For example to long integer? [−2147483647,+2147483647]
32767 is very small value for big race with much of planets and reachable very easy. It is crap because such race can research much more "advanced" technologies compared to "32767" limited one.
BTW _at least_ maybe possible change variable type from "int" to "unsigned int" ? After that value range would [0,65535] wich is 2 times more than current one...
neilkaz
King
Hi Sudoer,
By the time you reach 32k rp/T you can get very advanced hyper techs in two turns anyhow and also should easily have been able to win the game earlier in most cases.
Just take excess workers from the lab and make ships.
By the time you reach 32k rp/T you can get very advanced hyper techs in two turns anyhow and also should easily have been able to win the game earlier in most cases.
Just take excess workers from the lab and make ships.
Markus Ramikin
Justicar
Since Rocco nerfed Autofire by making it cost +100% space instead of +50%, this means the total effect of Autofire is a 1.5x damage output - before counting the -20% accuracy penalty. Now if this -20 is percentage points, or a penalty directly applied to BA - then it's actually a quite powerful penalty. After all, going down for instance from 60% to 40% accuracy means having to pack 1.5x the weapons to get the same result. This raises the question if this new Autofire is even worth it.
This led me to do some...
Empirical testing: Autofire vs Normal beams space efficiency in 10q
Gauss Cannons, 40 Autofire vs 80 Normal.
Unmodified, so 18 damage per shot. 5 rounds of testing each, at "neutral" range (3 space between the Doom Stars). Starting with predictably most favourable conditions (high BA vs low BD) and testing up to the least favourable.
150 BA vs 70 BD
^Predictably, with a sufficiently large attack advantage, you gain the full 1.5x gain in damage output.
150 BA vs 110 BD
^As soon as there is something approaching parity in attack vs defense, that gain starts to vanish.
150 BA vs 150 BD
150 BA vs 170 BD
^Yyyyeah.
This is probably worse for the AI, unless you can teach it to research Force Fields more often and to install stabilizers/nullifiers/cloaks more often. Right now, going with my favourite Creative race and going into beams/stabilizers, I would want my opponents to have Autofire.
EDIT: it should be noted that these results are a little less precise than the earlier mass driver tests, since it's only 400 shots per test and not 1000 or 5000. Still, they obviously give the correct gist.
I wonder if it would be possible to lessen the Autofire penalty to -10?
Aside: one of the most charming things about Moo2 is this oldschool incaution in piling on modifiers. A modern game will add +10% here, +15% there, all applied additively, to the base. But for vanilla Moo2 it's 1.5x (HEF), 2x (HX), 2x (AF), 2x (Analyzer), WTFx (Achillies). It's delicious.
This led me to do some...
Empirical testing: Autofire vs Normal beams space efficiency in 10q
Gauss Cannons, 40 Autofire vs 80 Normal.
Unmodified, so 18 damage per shot. 5 rounds of testing each, at "neutral" range (3 space between the Doom Stars). Starting with predictably most favourable conditions (high BA vs low BD) and testing up to the least favourable.
150 BA vs 70 BD
Code:
Total Ratio
40 Autofire 2160 2160 2160 2160 2160 10800
Hits 120 120 120 120 120 600
80 Normal 1440 1440 1440 1440 1440 7200
Hits 80 80 80 80 80 400 1.5150 BA vs 110 BD
Code:
Total Ratio
40 Autofire 1548 1494 1620 1494 1584 7740
Hits 86 83 90 83 88 430
80 Normal 1386 1332 1332 1296 1314 6660
Hits 77 77 74 72 73 370 1.16150 BA vs 150 BD
Code:
Total Ratio
40 Autofire 684 720 594 882 738 3618
Hits 38 40 33 49 41 201
80 Normal 594 864 648 864 630 3600
Hits 33 33 36 48 35 200 1.01150 BA vs 170 BD
Code:
Total Ratio
40 Autofire 324 180 252 180 162 1098
Hits 18 10 14 10 9 61
80 Normal 522 468 468 522 486 2466
Hits 29 29 26 29 27 137 0.45This is probably worse for the AI, unless you can teach it to research Force Fields more often and to install stabilizers/nullifiers/cloaks more often. Right now, going with my favourite Creative race and going into beams/stabilizers, I would want my opponents to have Autofire.
EDIT: it should be noted that these results are a little less precise than the earlier mass driver tests, since it's only 400 shots per test and not 1000 or 5000. Still, they obviously give the correct gist.
I wonder if it would be possible to lessen the Autofire penalty to -10?
Aside: one of the most charming things about Moo2 is this oldschool incaution in piling on modifiers. A modern game will add +10% here, +15% there, all applied additively, to the base. But for vanilla Moo2 it's 1.5x (HEF), 2x (HX), 2x (AF), 2x (Analyzer), WTFx (Achillies). It's delicious.
Dukinson
Warlord
Interesting results. I normally love seeing hits to late beam weapon power but if this is all kosher, perhaps the size should be 75%. -20 autofire penalty is good, it's a realistic figure. Ever tried to fire a weapon on auto? I've done semiauto and it's a lot harder. I'm sure I wouldn't hit a thing with full auto.
Markus Ramikin
Justicar
Not sure we wanna be throwing THAT argument around in this particular game.
neilkaz
King
Do you guys think AF should be un-nerfed? Or half-nerfed?
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