[MoO] ICEMOD: mod design, race design, strategies

[neilkaz]

Onward to T213pw in my Feudal game. Darlok IMP1 is doing very well indeed and the clear tech leader with 38k tech already. Some of this is likely from steals. AI's are fighting each other in general but often take or pound a system or two and make peace.

I have 21 systems now and Autolabs are on all developed planets and I've finished terraforming some. Amazing that I am not hugely dominant as I would be vs vanilla at this point.

I just finished A-armor research and the plan now, assuming I don't get attacked first is to hit Orion with about 20 BB's each with A-armor, Anti-Matter Drives, RHull and Aug Engines (since the Guardian moves a lot now and I want to be able to get most of my 2 shot missiles to hit and knock down the same shield). Weaponry is 10 MIRV Pulsons in the 1st few bays followed by 3 MIRV EMG Pulsons. I have BP's to add 75 space to fit these on.

If I can take Orion I should be able to proceed nicely towards a win by next stomping the Mecklar. Anyhow, this big a fleet could be good enough to win from there anyhow, although I'd want some high end beam ships as well so the AI just can't concentrate on missile defense.

EDIT: Onward to T218 and a break now. Last turn I noticed that the Tri's were taking a beating mostly from Darlok so expecting to provoke them into a war with me so I could gobble a couple of their remaining systems, I demanded Pleasure Dome tech and they gave it to me so I let them live since they made peace with the other AI's and can live a while. Friends are always good and anything goes for me at this level of play vs ICE 10.

BB are being refitted to have Pulsons and EMG Pulsons and I expect to have 20 or so to head to Orion in a dozen turns. Pleasure Domes are being built as well, esp. on big planets.

EDIT: Success at Orion on T230 and CS is right behind and I think I'll populate it with super Ant workers who are also Subt. I have Confederation Gov't now so my ships cost only 1/3 to make. Subspace Teleporter was obtained from Orion so I can make many ships similar to Locknar's and capture SB after SB.

I managed to trade my bonus tech of Galactic Currency Exchange to 4 or 5 AI's along with Black Hole Generator. LOL that Darlok leads in tech but doesn't have much really advanced tech to trade for and I couldn't this turn manage to get him to take what I wanted to trade. It seems they've stolen all sorts of early game techs.

This is a won game now! But I still have to win it and will jump all over Mecklar systems in a few turns.

 

[Rocco.40]

Good Game!

You T100 is from a standard start I assume?

Yes, I usually start from AVG 75% of the time and the other 25% PW.
I rarely start Advanced, only since i started modding to see if everything still works

One BUG found: My Feudal Gov't while suffering a 35% Research penalty is still (as in 1.31) suffering the 50% Research treaty penalty!

Thanks for this find! Not so easily fixed though, but as I am currently evaluating the Feudal Govt., will try to find it.

About my FeudLith game: have been spending most of my time on the code, so it hasn't really progressed.

 

[neilkaz]

As expected the FeudLith game goes very well and it is T250pw and the Mecks will be gone next turn. Then as I have the whining Psilons nearly enveloped I will be able to hit most of their several systems at once with a technique that will be studied by my race's star fleet commanders for millennia to follow!

Were this 1.31 I'd go to Antares and end it now, but I doubt even though I am using all 223 CP (HyperSpace Comm and Warlord mutant) I'd win there and I lack Dimensional Portal. So to win, I will attack another race or two while continuing to build my population (some artificial planets now) and will get the city planning tech for more pop. This should lead to a win in the GC. If I am not winning in the next GC, I may be able to kill everyone before another GC comes.

Re: Feudal.

1) Confederation is also bugged for research treaties as I am losing 25% rather than 10%. I hope you can code to fix this.

2) Re: Confederation. Being able to build ships at 1/3 cost really is OP. I suggest making Feudal as follows: a) Keep the current -35% tech and 2/3 ship cost. b) keep current -10% tech for Confed, but change ship cost to 1/2. c) This really isn't worth -5 IMO, so I'd change it back to -4 which will allow Feudal players to also choose repulsive for their neg. Some players only want to play as repulsive since they think that it is too easy to manipulate the AI races. I want the option to interface with them as we have now, since it is part of this very rich gaming experience we now have thanx to ICE 10.

Note that in this game I went for Artificial Planets and passed up Titan Construction. I want more population even though most systems have nothing to create a planet with and I'll build doomstars later if the game isn't won by then.

EDIT: The GC just came up on T250pw and I won.

One tiny bug which may have always been in the game. I took my 4 mutation picks as 3 for Warlord and 1 cancelling out the -1 for -10 attack. I am sure that cancellation worked since when I check race stats I no longer had -10 att.
But my final score for winning was multiplied by 1.10 so the game score doesn't recognize when your mutation cancels out a chosen starting racial penalty.

 

[Rocco.40]

interesting observation. Do you have still have a save game from just before evolutionary mutation? I could use it to check this in detail.

 

[neilkaz]

My guess is that the evo-mute score bug has always been in the game. I almost always mutated to warlord in vanilla and that took all my 4 picks so I never cancelled any negs.
My few Mrrshan games that went long enough for mutation to possibly matter, again I didn't cancel any negs and typically muted to cybernetic for better ships.

I attach two saves. One as I am about to take Orion so you can see how many Pulson missile BB are needed by testing a few times and not firing from all 22 ships. You could beeline from there to evo-mute tech if you want. Second save is just as I am about to win, but there's no guarantee the GC will come up right away so you may have to wait a few turns to see the score effect. Note that I forgot to change the name of my race from a previous game.

Oops it says invalid files and I tried twice. I think it has to do with the type of file my computer is saving it as. I'll take a 2nd look at this after dinner.

 

[Rocco.40]

ok- enjoy dinner!

-maybe superfluous- but you can just use the 'SAVE1.GAM' from the Moo2 directory

 

[neilkaz]

ok- enjoy dinner!

-maybe superfluous- but you can just use the 'SAVE1.GAM' from the Moo2 directory

My computer saves the MOO2 saves as a type of save to be opened by a different game. How do I change that? Of course I can open the saves with no problem with the game. I can't upload them to here as it says invalid file.

 

[Rocco.40]

problem on my side to to attach a MOO savegame. have sent you a pm

 

[Rocco.40]

The 1.10 score issue is not specifically related to Ship Attack, but happened with other possible mutation combo's too. It might either be Feudal related or an unintended consequence from moving from a -10 / +10 to a -8 / +12 scale or something else. Needs further investigation.

 

[neilkaz]

The 1.10 score issue is not specifically related to Ship Attack, but happened with other possible mutation combo's too. It might either be Feudal related or an unintended consequence from moving from a -10 / +10 to a -8 / +12 scale or something else. Needs further investigation.

Thx, this is only a minor issue since it affects score only. I assume it happens anytime you cancel out an original negative with mutation?

Anyhow, back to game play. I wonder why I never made that FeudLith race in vanilla. I think felt that only getting 20 rp/t wasn't adequate.

My UniAquaBalanced game has progressed and Mecklars were finished off on T199 and I built up for a few turns until I saw an opportunity to jump the Klackons in the upper left half of the galaxy as the Coids had taken a planet from them in what was unfortunately a short war. I've destroyed many Klackon ships and lost a few of my own. They have Battle Stations in the heart of their empire and these are formidable.

T212 and time for a break as Game of Thrones comes on TV in an hour!

 

[neilkaz]

The 1.10 score issue is not specifically related to Ship Attack, but happened with other possible mutation combo's too. It might either be Feudal related or an unintended consequence from moving from a -10 / +10 to a -8 / +12 scale or something else. Needs further investigation.

If it is an unintended consequence of -8/+12 and you can't fix it, I'd still keep -8/+12 unless there's other more pressing reasons to change.

My UniAquaBal game goes well, but the Klackon conquest is taking time. T230 now and I've taken their home system and several others. Coids decided to attack me as well, but now that I researched Powered Armor I am capturing their attacking ships. Robo-Miners as hoped for was obtained by my ground troops. I have Psyonics and that +15 is giving me the edge with my spies. With about a dozen BB most of them finishing a sweep of Ant systems, I think I will have a win here in a while.

 

[Rocco.40]

Have just deciphered the code block for the race extra abilities for Hard / IMP games!
This opens up so much new possibilities for race design, I need some time to grasp it
How do you feel like fighting 7 OP races, Neilkaz?

edit
first thoughts are to revert to ~1.31 races for average games and then carefully build race strength for Hard & Imp.

 

[neilkaz]

Have just deciphered the code block for the race extra abilities for Hard / IMP games!
This opens up so much new possibilities for race design, I need some time to grasp it
How do you feel like fighting 7 OP races, Neilkaz?

edit
first thoughts are to revert to ~1.31 races for average games and then carefully build race strength for Hard & Imp.

I'm already playing against 7 OP races I like them the way they are now
http://moo2mod.com/races.html and am fine if the ICE 10 changes are used for Average and then IMP is similar to what you have now and Hard somewhere in between Average and Impossible. But lets see what you can come up with, but, IMHO, I'd not want to see the best races get any stronger. I certainly expect to lose games vs ICEMOD 10 even when using about the best custom races I can use.

 

[Rocco.40]

no worries wont do any funny stuff - I need to be able to win too heh...

wil fix for IMP:
- Alkari always be Demo
- Bulrathi always GC+20
- Humans IMP 3 will be F+1, Taxes 0, GC 0 instead of F+2.
- Meklar IMP1, with only the ship bonuses to remove spy penalty
- Psilon always GC +0
- Sakkra remove the horrible Uncrea/Tol combo replace with F+1

some fixes for Hard:
- Bulrathi again always GC+20
- Darlok H1 lose that nasty Uni, R-1 and will get P+1
- Silicoid H3 P+1 > P+2 (which they already are! Game was downgrading...)


cheers

 

[Rocco.40]

10a is up, featuring further optimized races, as few balances and more Militia on a planet!
Default, the ratio is 1 per 5 pop if Marine Barracks is present. ICE ratio is 1/3.

 

[neilkaz]

10a is up, featuring further optimized races, as few balances and more Militia on a planet!
Default, the ratio is 1 per 5 pop if Marine Barracks is present. ICE ratio is 1/3.

Thx, I'll check it out once I finish this likely won UniTolBalanced game. I didn't have much time tonight but tried some starts with some DemoTech races. Nice to have the tech, but you attract spies and even with auto factories and holos production can still lag and be an issue and aggressive AI's can quickly ruin your day.

I'll trust you about militia but caution that as you make it harder for troops to take a planet you worsen the -20 GC penalty. LG also becomes more of a nuisance. Of course an option is to spend 3 picks on HG.

The other way around GC issues is telepathic. ICE 10 has me doubting my recommendation for +7 picks and only +5 spies since I find I need more econo picks or my race is too weak. UniTeleArtiLRHW may be playable with 23 pp/t and 25 rp/t from the large HW at the start.

By adding Rhull to SB's you've made it much harder to blitz quickly and telepaths need to destroy at least one race and take their HW and get it working to keep pace now considering the econ sacrificed by spending 7 picks. By making us spend an addition 1150 RP to get that 3rd chem take to MIRV nukes, the missile blitz is slowed. By moving fighters further down the tech tree, that quick attack is slowed. However, I am not saying that any of this is wrong.

 

[Rocco.40]

ICE 10 has me doubting my recommendation for +7 picks and only +5 spies since I find I need more econo picks or my race is too weak.

For vanilla MOO2 Tele +8 would also have been fine. For ICE 7 points is indeed harsh. But today I will boot up a new TeleFeud game and give Blitz another go, I have yet to win a Blitz game in ICE 10 and this is my favo play. So a new challenge awaits!

* Just uploaded 10b where I fixed a bug of my own creation (Human IMP3 were Feudal instead of Demo)

 

[Rocco.40]

ok- so i started a game with a 'Blitz' race: TeleFeud, Warlord, Transdi, GC-20 Large HW and Omniscient. Omni is a risk, coz I cannot take the rich HW now. I could have taken attack -10 and take Rich instead of Large, but my plan for this game is to switch to beams after the first race is captured. Instead of building cruisers only, I will also fit in research for RL and AF somehow and then go for BB's. First time I will try it like this, but I need to experiment as the oldschool blitz krieg is dead in ICE 10. Starting from Average:
T16- Gizmo finds me and I close a Research Treaty with the Trilarian, we have contact tx to a WH. I am in lower left hand corner. Sili's to my right and they colonized only 1 Outpost away from me.
T25- finished 1st CA, 5-6 turns slower than with Rich HW.
T31- snatched Sili's new colony, immediately transferring the pop to my new colony. Sili's are P+2 and Tolerant, but not Lith. With no chance to capture their HW, now I focus on RL and AF and shuffle my populations.
T50- still working my economy, Sili's finished a BB and CA so they will prob retake their planet soon. above me I see the Klackon at war with the Elerian and they both have 4 systems already and to the far right the Humans with also 4. These guys go fast!!
T84- Chug comes to save the day, bring me Soils and offcourse much needed Res+10.
T85- I invent Holo Sim and start building those and the Soils. This is more a 'rush' than a blitz game
T111- Sili's and me have been going back and forth over that Sili planet. Still no chance for me to take their HW and we are well above T100.
Researched the Merc Missile and I am now taking a risk chosing for Optronic Compu (+75 in ice) instead of Supercomps.
T114- big fight at the Sili planet between my fleet of 2BB's and 1 CA vs Sili 1 BB, 1 CA, 3DD. Take their BB and CA, the destroyers retreat.
T117- Finally take Sili HW!! ... I do get Fusion Beam and Mass Driver, excellent find of my Telepaths.
T118- take another Sili planet and get Battle Scanner. Finally a roll is starting. Meet the Humans. They are of the new ICE 10a IMP3 type. F+1, Tax 0, GC 0. They now have 7 systems.
T120- Klackon demand a gift to stay in favour of 1000BC! LOL
I reject, but do give them 240 BC out of my own 'free will'. Cant afford to have them attack me now as I dont have Deuterium, only Tritanium.
That is another gamble that I took with this game, it paid of with the Sili's but we will see if this was a suicide choice.
TBC

A graph that show I have some work to do:

 

[Rocco.40]

T124- Sili's are finally destroyed. This is really late game, as this is only the first of 7 a.i. to go down and it looks to be a long game, which is definitely a big disadvantage for Feud.
T130- Klackons decide to declare war anyway, at the same time making peace with Elerian, with whom they have been at war most of the game.
T137- I am attacking a Klackon world without planetary defenses with 3 missile boats. Klackon manage to get 1 BB in time at location. Surprise! Its Zortium armored / CIII shielded ship with AP mass drivers. That means time to retreat for my 2x shot nuke boats, leaving not even a scratch on the Klackons ship hull... I like this game more and more
T139- Managed to take a KLackon world, finding Zeon missile. Nice one. Although I guess I wont hold this planet for long.
T141- Klackon are now underway to attack me and I decide to buy a BB @ 2000 BC. A somewhat cornered move. First ship with beams and gonna need it in a few turns!
T143- Invent the most important Iridium Fuel Cells
T148- Klackon attack me with 3BB and a DD. I have Star Base, without Heavy Armor, and 5BB. It is a bold move from their side. Won by a long >15 turns combat, my SB almost running out of rockets to shoot with. Should a.i. have been smarter and used 'focussed fire' I would have lost this battle and probably the game.
TBC

 

[neilkaz]

@ Rocco, Nice game so far. I think winning that big battle with the Klackons may have saved your game. There will be more battles however before you reach the unstoppable stage which comes much later for the human player in ICE10 than in vanilla.