Idea for 2nd Expansion (Treaties and Colonies)

[King William I]

These are collected ideas that I had on the games next (and if the trend follows, last) expansion for CiV. To avoid a wall of text, I'll break them up over the following posts

Overview:

Colonies (Basically allows getting resources on other continents without cities, more detail in post 2)

Treaties (In a nutshell, allows for better peace treaties and more dynamic diplomacy)

9 new civs (Of course this is assuming there will be no more DLC) (The Sioux, The Zulu, The Hittites, The Apache, Sumer, The Khmer, Portugal, Brazil, Kongo)

2 new CS Types (Scientific and Covert)

New Espionage tactics
11 new wonders (Leonardo's Workshop, Marco Polo's Embassy, The Sphinx, School of Confusius, Hollywood, Bollywood, The Internet, Common Sense, Magna Carta)

 

[King William I]

the Colony system would be based off of the Civ III system with some minor Improvements

1. Colonies can only be sarted with workers or with Portugeuse(can't Spell) UU

2. Colonies are tile improvement, named by using Civ III's way naming cities after you have cycled your city names.

3. If started for early resources (Iron, Horses) the Colony will "dry up" When the resource can no longer be used

4. A colony can only be on top of a strategic or luxury resource

5. Colonies can be captured by enemy civilizations and ransomed by barbarians

6. Colonies gain+1 defense +1 gold and +1 science every new citizen it earns (These citizens do not work the tiles around them) and you can send citizens from your main cities to colonies if you so choose to speed-up growth. After your colony his pop. 10, you have the option to found a city or leave as a colony. If you leave as a colony, colonists may rebel and become a CS.

 

[King William I]

Adds the following options in the Discuss panel in diplomacy

Stop spreading your religion to us.
Please move your amries from our borders.
Stop Influencing [city-state]

the Diplomacy hit for asking this will go down the Friendlier a civilization is to you.

Promises (I.E. I'll sto spying) will be broadcast to the rest of the players. so if thier broken, You won't get a warmonger penalty for DoWing the offending leader

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Also adds the following options when negotiating peace

Status Quo Antebellum - Returns all cities and colonies to owners before the war (Only Player can suggest, to keep AI from creating Eternal Wars)

Stop Building Millitary Units for...- Side that gives this will have to stop building millitary units for specified amount of turns

Colonies - Can give away colonies in a peace settlement (can't ask for status quo antebellum if you ask for this)

Sphere of Influence* - Will transfer a city-states influence with player or AI

 

[King William I]

Will add 9 new civs

Brazil (Delux Edition)
Leader: Dom Pedro I
UU: Militia (Musketman)-Faster to produce, 10% combat strength in Friendly territory
UB: Soccer Field (Stadium)- in addition to regular stadium benefits, The Soccer Field grants +2 gold
UA: Carnival- +15% culture when the empire is happy
Capital: Brasilia
Colors: Dark Green and Yellow

Kongo
Leader: Nzinga Mbande
UU: Adagueiros (Longswordsman)- 25% combat bonus vs. melee units when on defense
UU: Mbwila Archer (Archer)- Costs less production and requires no maintenence
UA: Mounain Citadel- Cities built next to mountains gain a +10% combat bonus
Capital: Mbanza Kongo
Colors: Light Blue and Red

Portugal
Leader: Afonso Henriques
UU: Explorer (Musketman)- Can build colonies and trading posts, available at Astronomy
UB: Navigation School (Seaport)- +15% production when building naval units
UA: Trading Post Empire- Trading posts provide double gold, Colonies have double combat strength
Capital: Lisbon
Colors: Purple and Red

Sumer
Leader: Gilgamesh
UU: Vulture (Spearman)- +15 percent combat boost when next to friendly unit, stacks with discipline. upgrades to swordsman
UB: Ziggurat (Temple) produces +2 faith, science, and culture. 1 maintenence
UA: Cradle of Civilization- +10% food in all cities, upon aving a city captured, the captor gains a science boost (50% of the city's science production)
Capital: Ur
Colors, Dark Purple and Golden Yellow

The Apache (Represents the Native Americans who speak the Apachean Language)
Leader: Magnas Coloradas
UU: Raider (Chariot Archer)- Takes no movement point to pillage
UU: Chiricahua Warrior (Calvary) Can move after attack, Withdraw from melee
UA: Horse Culture- +2 culture per horse
Capital: Navajo
Colors: Light brown and Black

The Hittites
Leader: Muwatallis
UU: Three Man Chariot (Chariot Archer)- Has ranged and melee, 3 movement
UB: Lion's Gate (Walls)- +1 culture
UA: First to Iron- +1 Production and +2 gold per Iron Resource
Colors: White and Brown

The Khmer
Leader: Suryavarman II
UU: Ballista Elephant (Chariot Archer)- 3 movement, +1 movement through jungle, +10% combat bonus in jungle
UI: Baray, Provides 2 food, 2 faith. can only be built on tiles next to fresh water (lakes and Rivers)
UA: Jungle Temples- All temples provide +1 culture per adjacent Jungle Tiles, Lumber mills can be built on Jungle Tiles
Capital: Yasodharapura
Colors: Dark Green and White

The Sioux
Leader: Siting Bull
UU: Brave (Calvary)- No moement point to attack, but can only attack once per turn
UB: Council Hall (Amphitheatre)- +2 culture, +1 Happiness
UA: Warriors of Little Bighorn- +25% combat vs. technologically advanced units
Capital: Lakota
Colors Dark Brown and Black

The Zulu
Leader: Shaka
UU: Iklwa (Spearman)- +10% bonus vs. ranged units
UB: Amakhanda (Barracks)- All new units gain a bonus when nex to a freindly unit (Stacks with discipline)
UA: Buffalo Horns- Flanking units are 50% more efffective
Capital: Uldini
Colors: Yellow and Green

 

[King William I]

Adds the following wonders

Leonardo's Workshop (Engineering)- Cost to Upgrade unis reduced by 50%. Becomes obsolete when a civ enters the Industrial Era

Marco Polo's Embassy (Guilds)- Trade Missions are wice as effective, Automatic ambassy with any civ that you know and meet. (Still have to ay you to set one up)

The Sphinx (Masonry)- 25% chance to double city combat strength when attacked (Not when bombarding)

School of Confusius (Philosophy)- Small science bonus (100) when a great person is expended

Hollywood (Refridgeration) +2 gold for every theatre

Bollywood (Refridgeration) +2 Culture for every theatre

The Internet (Computers) Automatically learn any technology that 3 other civs have and you don't

Common Sense (Printing Press) Courthouses take half the normal time to build

Magna Carta (Civil Service) +1 happiness per city with pop 10 or more

 

[King William I]

2 new CS Types

Scientific- Gives Science

Covert- Reduces Enemy Spy effectiveness. When Making Allies, You gain a Spy. When no longer allied, that spy is automatically killed. CS names come from the capitals of civilzations not in game

 

[King William I]

Fuel Revolution- will create any army(and navy if coastal) to try and liberate the CS or Civ. (liberated CS or AI will know who Fuels Revolution) only available if taret has tken out a CS or civilization

Steal Gold- Will attmpt to steal gold, amount and success rate depends on spy level

 

[Peacemongerer]

I like 90% of these ideas, but a lot of the Civs need some rethinking.

I could see Sumer being beyond OP if they make it to the Modern Era. That +10 food feeds 10 specialists and makes the Hanging Gardens useless. Stack that with a few +4 food tiles and they can just spam every extra citizen on mine tiles for limitless production. A science bonus to the captor doesn't make up for it, especially considering how powerful that temple replacement is.

Kongo's ability basically makes Ethiopia a useless civ bc it's GUARANTEED to work regardless of Empire size and is also a larger bonus (20% vs. 25%). Try to make sure UAs and UUs aren't just stronger versions of existing ones bc then it makes existing civs feel decidedly inferior.

The Souix are good.

The Zulu sound balanced.

Portugal is pretty good.

Brazil is pretty good. I'd just make sure the gold bonus from the soccer field does not exceed what China gets from the paper maker.

Apache are sweet.

The Hittites. Same as the Kongo, but in reverse. This is basically Russia's UA but not as powerful bc it doesn't affect uranium and whatnot. Maybe make this an iron-only bonus and make it triple value or +2 gold per tile or something. The 3-man chariot would also be waaaaay too powerful. If it had melee abilities, that would require a high combat strength. People would then just have a super-archer they'd send rampaging.

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The colony concept is a good one, but maybe make it less like the puppet system we have now... make it a tile improvement that you build on top of a resource outside of your territory with 0 initial defense (Portuguese have +8 or something). It gains +1 defense +1 gold and +1 science every new citizen it earns (These citizens do not work the tiles around them) and you can send citizens from your main cities to colonies if you so choose to speed-up growth. After your colony his pop. 10, you have the option to found a city or leave as a colony. If you leave as a colony, colonists may rebel and become a CS. Something lke that.
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New diplo options would be nice, but the AI can't negotiate a fair deal as is. And asking them to draw-down their military just doesn't work bc if they're so beaten-down as to surrender anything, then they have no military which to draw-down. Maybe make it so that you impose a 30-turn hard-cap on unit production that can only be imposed on civs who started the war and got beaten-back. Breaking the limit will break the peace treaty and give the other civ carte blanche to declare war.
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Leonardo's workshop is a good idea (Loved it in Civ III), but basically nerfs the Pentagon.

Marco Polo's Embassy would be op (Imagine Portugal with it's +3 gold trading posts going to +6 and spamming them as the AI loves doing). Maybe say +1 happiness if a city is working at least 1 trading post and a free embasy in everyone else's capital (They still have to pay to get one in yours, however). Or better yet make the wonder boost CS influence or something.

The Sphinx is decent, but I'd argue that the ability would just be too erratic, especially if we get to the modern era while you're in the stone ages and I see a 35 defense city kill my tank in one hit. Maybe make it be a 25% chance to double city combat strength when attacked (Not when bombarding, however).

School of Confucius basically makes Leaning Tower sheer garbage, especially since it comes before it. Connect it to a bonus to happiness or science and maybe make it generate a great prophet or great scientist or something.

Hollywood and Bollywood are both fine.

Nerf the internet just a bit. Maybe make it that at least 25% or even 50% of in-game civs know so that you don't just build it and then never be behind in tech... plenty of nations have the internet now and I don't see them with the technology for nukes. Maybe offset this negative by giving the city that generates this wonder a gold and science boost.

Common Sense is just too ridiculous. If it's available by the Renaissance, then it'd turn your cities into either a +60 drag or a +320 drag (I assume by double you mean add another +10 unhappiness) by the end of the game. Either way, too OP and basically means that if an AI has ICS going and you try to stop it once it's built the wonder, you'll be unable to do so after more than maybe 2 cities. This allows limitless runaway AI. Make it instead be a happiness bonus you encounter when fighting a war against a bigger nation or provide temporary happiness benifits for battles won in your territory.

Magna Carta's ability sounds good for a later wonder, but this basically outdoes it's contemporay Chichen Itza while also giving you the benefit of the Oracle. Maybe make it so that policies in the liberty and freedom trees cost 10% less for the owner if bought prior to the information era or something like that.
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New spy options sound good at first, but then you realize how the AI handles current espionage and cringe at the thought of them being able to flip your cities, especially at higher difficulties. Maybe have spies need to undergo a 2-part mission to make this more cumbersome. First they have to "spread unrest" at city, which gives a happiness hit for 20 turns. The city must be a puppet or annexee far from the capital (15+ tiles or so). Then, they may try to start a revolution that will restore the original regime who controlled it.

Sabotage tech is just not fair bc the AI will just dogpile on the tech leader... stealing tech is enough of an equalizer. So long as each civ has a limited # of spies, this will be op. Maybe make doing this reduce science production by 20% in a city of your choice for 5 turns.

Steal gold is good as is. Make this high risk, high reward with a huge diplo hit if you fail.

 

[King William I]

^^^^^^^

thanks for the ideas, updated all posts

 

[kgoodrid]

Good ideas. Some are common sense, such as giving the player the same Diplo options that the AI has. The key thing here would be to add a good Paradox style style system, with Warscore (earned through winning combat, capturing territory, pillaging, etc.) which will help the AI negotiate more effectively and prevent endless wars, and a proper Cassus Belli system. In fact, I think I'll write up a post of my own on the subject.

My favorite idea is to bring back Colonies. They weren't as important, in my experience, in Civ III because it was fairly easy to expand. Now that expansion is much harder in CiV, colonies would be GREAT. It would allow for some nice expansion, without making huge empires of 'core' cities. Here are a few additions I would add:

1) Remove the resource restriction. Let players settle colonies where they want. If built on a resource, it will work that resource automatically. (This will allow for more flexibility and give more options and will work with #2)

2) Give the colony a maximum of 1-ring, and allow it to work those tiles. Don't allow it to grow borders, but do allow for purchasing of tiles adjacent to Colony borders. (This will give America's UA a much needed boost. It will also play into #3)

3) Send 50% of colony food / science / production / culture / faith back to Capital. For food, this will amount will need to be balanced to prevent starvation. (Thus we can actually create early super-cities like Rome, fed by the rest of the Empire and thus able to grow much larger much earlier)

4) Colonies will have a chance to rebel. If the Empire is Unhappy, this will be, say, 10% each turn. If Very Unhappy, this will go up to say 25% each turn. The Colony will then become a City State. It can be reconquered, at which point it reverts back to a normal Colony, but with additional unhappiness for X (scaled to game speed) turns. It also cannot revolt again for X turns. It can also be bribed to rejoin, at a very high cost.

5) Once a Colony hits size 10, it can be converted to a full city. If kept as a Colony, it gains a base revolt chance of say 10% each turn and produces additional unhappiness.

6) Colonies will respond to the status of nearby Colonies. So if a Colony is unhappy, it will spread unhappiness to nearby Colonies. If a Colony revolts, it has a chance to cause Revolts in other nearby colonies. This distance will be scaled to map size, so colonies revolting in America won't have much impact on Colonies in India.

 

[Jerman]

Sadly there is one major flaw. You cant get spies without Gods and kings. So if this expansion were to release and the player doesn't have Gods and Kings a couple things could happen. The best way to deal with this is the new Gods and kings stuff (Religion espionage ect) cant happen so they just dont show up .

 

[black213]

For Hittite UA I would suggest 'starts the game with iron revealed' and on top of that a small generic bonus that would fit the Hittites. When I come up with UA ideas, that's the way I balance situational UAs, by adding a small generic bonus.
Same for the Apaches. Just too situational.

 

[insaneweasel]

Couple of things.

The Kongo and Khmer UAs seem super weak. 10% bonus for the city if its built next to a mountain? How would that make a difference, as most of the time mountain cities are easy to defend anyway?

Khmer also forces you to keep jungles next to your starting location, which doesn't happen often.

 

[The A.K.T]

y do u want Brazil? If we will get Portugal its stupid to ad Brazil.

 

[Genghis.Khan]

Well, Brazil was a Portuguese Colony... So I don´t agree Brazil being a Civ.

Instead of Brazil will not Mali?

 

[Rooftrellen]

Brazil (Delux Edition)
Leader: Dom Pedro I
UU: Militia (Musketman)-Faster to produce, 10% combat strength in Friendly territory
UB: Soccer Field (Stadium)- in addition to regular stadium benefits, The Soccer Field grants +2 gold
UA: Carnival- +15% culture when the empire is happy
Capital: Brasilia
Colors: Dark Green and Yellow

Was just discussing this with my wife, we came up with this:

Leader Pedro II
UB: UPP (Police Station)-+1 happiness per 5 population
UU: Thunderbolt (Fighter)-intercepts twice per turn, more expensive to build
UA: Devotion to Progress-slowly gain beakers of science other civs that you have met have discovered
Capital: Rio de Janeiro

Historically important figure, a UU that fits pretty well (Brazilian air force is historically the bright spot of the army), and while the UA goes with the leader very specifically, it gets away from those silly stereotypes.

For Sumer, I personally dislike legendary figures, but being a region I know very little about, I could only suggest Shulgi as an alternative. I'm not sure I know any other leaders at all...

 

[Liex]

y do u want Brazil? If we will get Portugal its stupid to ad Brazil.

Well, Brazil was a Portuguese Colony... So I don´t agree Brazil being a Civ.

Instead of Brazil will not Mali?

It's always nice to read consistent, thoughtful arguments.

Spoiler :

Was just discussing this with my wife, we came up with this:

Leader Pedro II
UB: UPP (Police Station)-+1 happiness per 5 population
UU: Thunderbolt (Fighter)-intercepts twice per turn, more expensive to build
UA: Devotion to Progress-slowly gain beakers of science other civs that you have met have discovered
Capital: Rio de Janeiro

Historically important figure, a UU that fits pretty well (Brazilian air force is historically the bright spot of the army), and while the UA goes with the leader very specifically, it gets away from those silly stereotypes.

I agree with you about the Air Force, but perhaps the Embraer's Super Tucano (or another national aircraft) would be a better choice. I don't think the UPP is a good idea, though.

 

[iRule]

I have to say this is a pretty good idea and would definitely spice up colonisation in game, which is one of CiV's worse features.

And, as a Portuguese, I have to say I'd love to see both Portugal and Brazil in a new EP.

Brazil is Portugal's ultimate and most proud legacy. We, the Portuguese, see in Brazil a sort of continuation of what we once were - and considering Brazil's astonishing growth, and considering it's the only nation in the America's capable of rivaling the US in some way (the "Great Two" of the Americas are the USA and Brazil), and because the United States is already in (and with due reason) it makes all sense to have Brazil.

Besides, Civ is not only about the past - it's also about the future. And if every BRIC country is already represented ingame, why not Brazil?

It will be one of the worlds future global powers. In fact, it already is.

I just think the OP rooster for Brazil is better than Rooftrellen's, desculpa parceiro I hardly think that a police station would represent Brazil (a Sambodromo or a Football Stadium would better), or a "Thunderbolt" (I don't know about those, are they from Embraer?) is a good UU for Brazil. For all it's worth Brazil's military still lags behind those nations who have air force units as UU in the game (the US, for example).

The Bandeirantes would be the best UU for Brazil. Sure they represent São Paulo more than anyone, but they built Brazil, in a way. And considering what they did, well, maybe their special ability would be that, when conquering a single enemy worker, you'd get two. Or maybe, while being musketmen, they could build mines - just like the real Bandeirantes.

But, if someone disagrees the Bandeirantes are the best UU for Brazil because they were "Portuguese" at the time, well, then I'd say we should "create" an unit called "Soldados Imperiais" or something like that, from the heyday of the Empire of Brazil, post independence. But, all in all, the Bandeirantes would be the best choice.

As to the UA, well, it seems pretty good - and I think it actually reflects well the Brazilian spirit: Brazil is a massive "cultural nation" in its "golden times" (Bossa Nova anyone?) - but "Carnival" doesn't seem right to me.

"Order and Progress" or "Ordem e Progresso" surely gets it better and, come on, that's Brazil's motto, and it fits so well that nation trait.

As to the capital, Brasília is okay but it's a very recent city, and while it represents Brazil's present and future it doesn't represent its past. It is less than 50 years old.

Rio de Janeiro has to be the capital. Brazil's oldest city and the capital of the Empire of Brazil and, for a time, even the United Kingdom of Portugal and Brazil.

Rio is Brazil's heart and soul.

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Brazil (Delux Edition)
Leader: Dom Pedro I
UU: Bandeirantes (Musketman)- slightly more expensive, can improve resources like workers
UB: Sambódromo (Stadium)- in addition to regular stadium benefits, The Sambódromo grants +2 gold
UA: Order and Progress - +15% culture when the empire is happy
Capital: Rio de Janeiro
Colors: Dark Green and Yellow

 

[Skibbi]

I'd say BTS style colonies, cities you grant independance, they become a vassal state to you, or something like that!

 

[Argive]

I posted some similar ideas yesterday. Maybe they'll add to this conversation:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=484257