Ideas for some Civilizations

[T_F]

Prussia was one of the most powerful entities near the end of the Holy Roman Empire, and (IIRC) it was mainly Prussian efforts that led to the unification of Germany in 1871. At its height it had half of modern Germany and half of modern Poland under its control.

@dragodon: The UHVs seem good, but the dates seem a bit early to me. I think the first one should be 1850, and the third 1940 (or 45). For the middle one, would building six require them to have colonies? I think it needs a date too, perhaps 1940 or 1915? (Or should we have a more Prussia-oriented one rather than a Germany-oriented one?)

 

[dragodon64]

What we have in the game as Germany represents states who did not directly succeed each other, but owned the same territory.

A very brief description would be: Holy Roman Empire in middle ages was taken over (controlled from within, not conquered) by Austrian Habsburg dynasty in Renaissance, whose archenemy was Prussia. Over the next 300 years Prussia got stronger, Austria got (comparatively) weaker. HRE disbanded in 1808, next 60 years saw Prussia and Austria keep competing for German states. Prussia got most of Germany by 1870, German Empire was created, Kingdom of Prussia being its biggest sub-state. German Empire became the Weimar Republic after WWI, then it became the Third Reich, then WWII happened, and the rest is history.

Actually, all of that was history, that's beside the point.

Edit: I tend to not read the final page before posting; this was one of those times.

Edit2: 1750 is the 'ambitious' UHV requirement, Prussia wanted to have all that at the end of the Silesian Wars 1740-1763. Actually, since 1750 isn't even a game year, 1760 would be better. The assembly plant deadline should be by the first world war, maybe 1890? And I actually meant 1910 on the last one, to represent the pre-WWI peak of the German Empire, direct descendant of the Kingdom of Prussia. However, I consider the Weimar Republic and the Third Reich to be a bit of a break from the past, so I'd rather avoid going into that time period.

 

[JujuLautre]

One of the biggest issue I can forsee with the inclusion in RFC of any of Prussia/Austria/Poland/... or whatever you want in central Europe is that this will basically make several minor powers instead of a big one. Unlike France/Spain/England and Dutch/Portugal, Germany does not have much possibility to expand outside of Europe. So if you deprive it from its possibility of becoming a major power (in the Civ sense), I think the balance in Europe will be completely changed. Is that a good thing? Not so sure.

 

[kairob]

Thanks T_F & dragodon64 that explains a lot.

 

[Leoreth]

Hello everyone, another lurker who starts to post

I have to agree with JujuLautre, adding Poland or dividing Germany into Austria and Prussia would hurt balance a lot, because each of the 2-3 civs will be stuck with 1 or 2 cities and never be able to compete with its direct neighbors France and Russia, who both even can colonise in the lategame.

Still it's very strange that "Germany" ingame represents both the HRE and the modern Germany with its Prussian heritage. That neither feels very historical accurate nor is it fun gameplay-wise, because most of the Middle Ages and Renaissance (while being the HRE historically) you play to already achieve or prepare the aims of WWI or WWII. That always kind of annoyed me.

That's my idea how to fix it:
We take spawn date, zone, techs etc. of our current "Germany" and transfer it to the new civ "Holy Roman Empire" (easily done since that civ is already there in BTS). It gets Otto I. (Charlemagne) as leaderhead, the Landsknecht UU and the Rathaus UB and all graphics from BTS along with its own UP (can't think of an appropriate one) and an own set of medieval- and renaissance-focused UHVs. Possibilities:

• Control Italy, Poland and the Baltic in 1200 AD
• Control the Apostolic Palace, Sistine Chapel and the Notre Dame in 1200 AD
• Never lose a city until 1600 AD
• Have 10 monasteries in 1200 AD
• Be first to discover Astronomy (doable?)
• Control 5 cities at the Baltic sea in 1500 AD (Hanse / Hanseatic League)

Then in 1700, Prussia spawns (in 1701 the Prussian dynasty Hohenzollern gained the rank of kings). It has the whole current German stable zone as its flip zone except nowadays Austria and Hungary. Prussia then is the new implementation of the German civ in RFC and gets its graphics, leaderheads, UU and UB as well as the current UP.
I think this has a lot of advantages:

• it represents the historical decay of the HRE very well
• the HRE player can decide to switch to Prussia, conquer Vienna/Budapest and continue to play just as in the current version (HRE and Prussia shouldn't get the normal stability penalties when owning cities in each other's core area)
• the HRE player can decide to allow the flip and play on as Austria-Hungary and center his expansion towards the Balkans/Italy/Russia (this is what happened in history)
• the HRE player can decide to disagree to the flip, beat Prussia and reunite the HRE. That leaves the interesting possibility of the HRE surviving into modern times.

Some things still have to be worked out, of course:
Holy Roman UHV: Should in every case be achievable before Prussia spawns and preferably represent the Empire's medieval ambitions. So control of Italy (see Frederick Barbarossa) and the Baltic (Teutonic Order) should be in, I think.
The Hanse victory condition (control X cities at the Baltic Sea in 1500 AD) also fits very well, as it overlaps with the first condition. The number of cities should be balanced so that you are forced to go to war at least with Russia (St. Petersburg), Netherlands (to found Copenhagen) or the Vikings. Since you can easily build three of the four cities Hamburg, Danzig, Memel or Reval, 5 would be an appropriate number (so you have to settle really tight or conquer two cities).
The last one is more difficult. Historically, the HRE always tried to control the Pope (see Henry IV, who terribly failed in that ), but I guess it's difficult to connect a UHV condition to the AP elections (otherwise one could do "Control the Apostolic Palace and get elected three times [or any other appropriate number]"). Therefore the "10 monasteries" or "AP, Sistine Chapel and Notre Dame" conditions to represent supremacy over the church.
Another possibility is to represent HRE's influence in Astronomy (Johannes Kepler, Nikolaus Kopernikus, Tycho Brahe, Galileo Galilei were the first real astronomers of history and all lived within the HRE) by requiring to be the first one to research it. But maybe that's not interesting enough.

Naming issues: I think there is a way of change the dynamic civ naming according to date (as Rhye did with England/Britain). So after the Prussian spawn, HRE should change its naming:
Hereditary Rule: Holy Roman Empire -> Austrian Empire (or maybe Austria-Hungary?)
Representation: German Confederation -> Dual Monarchy of Austria-Hungary
Police State: ??
Universal Suffrage: ?? -> Republic of Austria
HRE should be called "Confederation of the Rhine", when vassal of France, "Province of Austria" when vassal of Prussia, and "Ostmark", if Prussia is fascist (as that was the name of Austria in the Third Reich).
Prussia should keep the current dynamic civ names of Germany, I think.

Holy Roman UP: That's a really difficult one. Historically, the main fact that divided the HRE from other European kingdoms was the relative independence of its provinces, but I don't know how to turn that into an advantage
Another characteristic was the so called "Reichskirchensystem" (roughly: "Imperial Church System"), which meant that the Emperor didn't grant his fiefs to nobles, but rather to bishops, so that he regains them in their death, as clerics have no heirs
Maybe we could represent the province's independence in taking away the courthouse's stability boost from the Rathaus (which is way too powerful anyway) and make up a UP like "Your temples and monasteries grant a small stability bonus" to implement the aforementioned government system. At least a possibility

Leaderheads: I think Prussia is fine as it is there (Frederick -> Bismarck), but HRE sitting around with only Otto until modern times is a bit lame. I think we would need another representant for the medieval HRE (maybe Frederick Barbarossa, if there's some art for him) and one for Austria (I have seen both Metternich and Maria Theresia out there, but I don't know if their quality matches Rhye's high standards).

Prussia UHV: Now that some of its targets are already in the Holy Roman UHV, we should change them to:

• Control France, Britain and Russia in 1940 AD
• Be first to complete the tech tree
• Have 8 great persons settled in your capital in 1900 AD

Let me briefly explain the new condition: I think Germany's current UHV is too warlike and doesn't catch its history very well. Of course, it had its expansionist phase from 1890-1945 (in varying scale, of course ), but so had France, and still it isn't all about conquering. The targets Britain, France and Russia are still in, and to conquer them all, you'll have to start around 1900, which fits very well historically. Italy is out since Germany wasn’t really interested in it after the Middle Ages, the Balkans will now be expansion room for Austria, and the WWII invasion in Norway (I think that’s the reason Scandinavia is one of the current conditions) was only to be able to attack Britain at a broader front (and the Vikings are now more of a potential enemy for the HRE, due to their Baltic Sea requirements).
The new condition is to represent the fact that Germany added a load of important artists (think of classical and baroque composers) in the 18th and many important scientists and engineers in the the 19th century (the only thing Germany was really good at during that time, while being politically weak). The number could be changed, if difficulty balancing demands it.

Wow, that one became long Feel free to criticize

 

[kairob]

But then if you play as the HRE a lot of your core cities are going to flip to Prussia, that might not be very fun. Other than that it sounds pretty cool.

 

[T_F]

I like the idea of the HRE very, very much, but I don't know if they should completely replace Austria. I guess it kind of makes sense - the HRE after Prussia's spawn is sort of 'exiled' to Austria.

On second thought, certainly having the HRE, Prussia AND Austria (and Poland) would be a horribly, horribly crowded Europe.

@JujuLautre: It probably would very much change the balance of power in Europe, but it makes things more interesting for any potential German player (of whatever flavor). Instead of kind of sitting around waiting to take over all of Europe so that you can take it but don't have to hold on to it for too long, you have some expansionist goals right from the start.

@Leoreth: Welcome! And comments:
-HRE's UHVs:
--I like the monasteries one, IDK if the HRE can actually get 10 cities to put them in. Perhaps 5 is more doable, maybe 6 (three or four in Germany, Milan and Rome)
--Instead of control Italy, perhaps just control Rome. (Take Rome by X AD is a sufficient UHV I think (it's effectively a copy of the Ottoman one), instead of Rome, Poland and Balkans.)
--Third one? IDK.
-I like the idea for the HRE UP, you get a stability bonus for cities with temples in them. (Gives you a good incentive to build both!) The stability bonus should be coded as per city, not per temple.
-If the HRE manages to reconquer the Prussian spawn zone and hold it, should its name revert to the HRE?
-Police State / State Property Name: something like People's Republic of Austria? As vassal to the USSR, Soviet Austria or keeping the People's Republic moniker?
-Prussia needs a few unique names of its own ^_^
--as a vassal to the HRE or Poland, the Duchy of Prussia
--got nothin' else ATM
-I think those are good UHVs for Prussia if we have some of those expansionist HRE ones, but I'm not quite sure if I really like them. IDK if the HRE ever expanded anywhere outside of Germany and Northern Italy (excluding France at the very beginning), so I'm not quite sure I see the motivation for them. I think Prussia's expansionist UHV should include Austria, if that's too many I think taking Austria is more important than taking Britain.

@kairob: I think we're going to have it so that the HRE's UHVs are all before Prussia spawns, so you can sort of hang on and play for some other victory if you fail your UHV, but if you work towards the UHV you'll never have to deal with Prussia's spawn.

Prussia needs to be like America in that you can't just autoplay all the way to it without playing the unlocked scenario.

(If we're adding LHs to the HRE, there are a few other LHs I'd like to see in this game anyway that maybe we could add on the side if we wanted. I think we should include that excellent Alexander anyway.)

 

[civ_king]

the 10 could include monasteries and temples meaning you only need 5 cities, heck throw in Cathedrals too and you only need 4

 

[T_F]

True. Throwing the +stability-for-temples-UP in along with that seems a bit much though (not only do you get stability from building them, they help you towards your UHV).

 

[civ_king]

True. Throwing the +stability-for-temples-UP in along with that seems a bit much though (not only do you get stability from building them, they help you towards your UHV).

give + stability to monasteries and a bunch for Cathedrals

 

[wolfigor]

...

That's my idea how to fix it:


...

I love the idea!
Having first HRE and the Prussia (Germany) spawning is the ideal solution for the area.
It will give the game a HRE with real medieval target, followed by a modern Germany with modern targets.

Ideally the UHV for HRE should be completed before the spawn of Prussia-Germany because such spawn, most likely, will take away from HRE most of its territory.

The HRE UHV shall the the usual 2 historically archived targets plus one "aspirational".
The main problem lay on the fact that HRE was not a very unitary state, so it is somehow complicated to set clear target for territorial expansion.
For most of its existence it was divided in a large number of small states with different degree of cohesion
We can see the 1200s as the ending time of a decent degree of internal cohesion:

In that century the HRE had control on good part of Italy, Poland, and Baltic.
It could be fair even if not completely accurate to have the first UHV condition based on it.
The second could reflect the aspiration of controlling the christendom, something that they never archived in full.

So the UHV can be:
1. Control Italy, Poland and the Baltic in 1200 AD
2. Control the Apostolic Palace, in 1200 AD

The last condition maybe something to reflect the long war against the Turkish expansionism in Europe.
something like:
3. Control the Balkans, Greece, and Constantinople in 1600

However the AI is not that good in conquest, and this last condition would be a bit too easy.
Maybe it could be a more interesting challenge to have:
3. Have France, Spain, and the Netherland as vassals in 16000
3. Never lose a city until 1600 AD

 

[T_F]

Ideally the UHV for HRE should be completed before the spawn of Prussia-Germany because such spawn, most likely, will take away from HRE most of its territory.

Yup, that's my understanding of it.

So the UHV can be:
1. Control Italy, Poland and the Baltic in 1200 AD
2. Control the Apostolic Palace, in 1200 AD

First one is good, with the addition that perhaps merely take Rome instead of control Italy. (Take Rome, defeat Poland and control the Baltic in 1200 AD)
Second one - just want to throw out there that if you get unlucky and somewhere distant like China ends up building the AP on the 3000 BC start, that's a goal you'll never achieve.

The last condition maybe something to reflect the long war against the Turkish expansionism in Europe.
something like:
3. Control the Balkans, Greece, and Constantinople in 1600

However the AI is not that good in conquest, and this last condition would be a bit too easy.
Maybe it could be a more interesting challenge to have:
3. Have France, Spain, and the Netherland as vassals in 16000
3. Never lose a city until 1600 AD

Perhaps combine the two - Control the Netherlands and the Baltic and ensure Turkey does not have Constantinople in 1600
Or just the last part there seems pretty good.

 

[wolfigor]

Yup, that's my understanding of it.

First one is good, with the addition that perhaps merely take Rome instead of control Italy.
(Take Rome, defeat Poland and control the Baltic in 1200 AD)

In most of the cases to take Rome means to take Italy (not always you have other towns there).
I understand that from the historical point of view it may be more accurate to have the conquest of Rome only, but some of the emperors did try to control all Italy, not only Rome.
The most remarkable example is Frederick II (1194-1250) that took war against the Papal State (Rome) and was not only Holy Roman Emperor but also King of Sicily (all south of Italy).

Second one - just want to throw out there that if you get unlucky and somewhere distant like China ends up building the AP on the 3000 BC start, that's a goal you'll never achieve.

Yes, you're perfectly right here.
And in some ways controlling Rome kind of fullfill the historical task.

Yup, that's my understanding of it.
Perhaps combine the two - Control the Netherlands and the Baltic and ensure Turkey does not have Constantinople in 1600
Or just the last part there seems pretty good.

The main problem is that all these tasks are not too complex by themselves in the time frame.
Russia can be beaten to the race for the Baltic and not always become a strong opponent for Germany (HRE in this case) before the 1600.
The AI is not that good with Turks in conquering Instanbul and the Balkans... but maybe could be challenging enough.

 

[T_F]

In most of the cases to take Rome means to take Italy (not always you have other towns there).
I understand that from the historical point of view it may be more accurate to have the conquest of Rome only, but some of the emperors did try to control all Italy, not only Rome.
The most remarkable example is Frederick II (1194-1250) that took war against the Papal State (Rome) and was not only Holy Roman Emperor but also King of Sicily (all south of Italy).

Control of Italy it is then.

The main problem is that all these tasks are not too complex by themselves in the time frame.
Russia can be beaten to the race for the Baltic and not always become a strong opponent for Germany (HRE in this case) before the 1600.
The AI is not that good with Turks in conquering Instanbul and the Balkans... but maybe could be challenging enough.

True. I think conquering the Netherlands is a fairly tough one, they start with a lot of longbowmen.
The Istanbul bit could be a bit easy, I had one game where the Turks didn't even try for it - it was completely empty and they still didn't send anyone to take it!
Balkans - yeah, it might be a bit too easy. Maybe somehow we could tweak Turkey's AI so they go for the Balkans more often.

 

[Leoreth]

Nice to see you like my ideas

You're right with Rome, all of Italy shouldn't be necessary. But I still think the Baltic should be in, as it was Germany's main expansion target in the Late Middle Ages (see "Ostsiedlung" and Teutonic Order). That doesn't affect difficulty much, because you have to settle there anyway to be able to compete.
That condition should be easily doable in 1200 AD. If we include another military target (then it should be Netherlands), the player should be given a little more time.

I think vassalization of certain civs is no good victory condition, because especially Europeans can be rather stubborn to capitulate. You certainly will have to destroy Netherlands before they surrender (they have no colonies in HRE's timeframe).

Regarding the monastery condition ... you're right, 10 is too much. But as Germany you can easily found five good cities yourself (e.g. Frankfurt, Danzig, Reval, Kiev, Budapest) and you will conquer Rome for your other condition, so you'll have at least 6 cities available. Since building them is easy, the condition should be more then 6, I think. So the player has to decide if he settles more tightly or to conquer one of his neighbor's cities. 7-8 would do it.

I am still of the opinion HRE's third condition should be related to the Hanseatic League (see here). My first idea "5 cities at the Baltic Sea" seems to be the best way to represent it ... other thoughts?

-If the HRE manages to reconquer the Prussian spawn zone and hold it, should its name revert to the HRE?

That would be nice, but it seems that this is difficult to implement. Has Rhye already done something like that?

-Police State / State Property Name: something like People's Republic of Austria? As vassal to the USSR, Soviet Austria or keeping the People's Republic moniker?

The communist names seem fitting

I think Prussia's expansionist UHV should include Austria, if that's too many I think taking Austria is more important than taking Britain.

I'd rather think it gets to easy if we replace the Britain condition with Austria.
Obviously, Rhye chose the current German UHV to represent its expansionist ambitions during the world wars. In both, Germany's enemies were France, Russia and Britain. Austria was an ally in WWI and a vassal in WWII (speaking in civ-terms ) ... so they are not really a target from the historical point of view.
Honestly, I would still conquer before I go to war, simply because Wien/Budapest is such an awesome production city

I like the idea of the HRE very, very much, but I don't know if they should completely replace Austria. I guess it kind of makes sense - the HRE after Prussia's spawn is sort of 'exiled' to Austria.

In fact, this is exactly what happened in history. Since the house of Habsburg made the Emperor title practically heritable, they became its ruling dynasty. After the dissolution of the Empire in 1806, they continued to rule their own lands (Austria, Bohemia, Silesia etc.). This continuity lasted until 1918, when Austria was forced to become a republic after WWI.

 

[T_F]

Nice to see you like my ideas

YW ^_^

You're right with Rome, all of Italy shouldn't be necessary. But I still think the Baltic should be in, as it was Germany's main expansion target in the Late Middle Ages (see "Ostsiedlung" and Teutonic Order). That doesn't affect difficulty much, because you have to settle there anyway to be able to compete.
That condition should be easily doable in 1200 AD. If we include another military target (then it should be Netherlands), the player should be given a little more time.

Baltics sound good I think, Baltics and Netherlands by 1300?

Regarding the monastery condition ... you're right, 10 is too much. But as Germany you can easily found five good cities yourself (e.g. Frankfurt, Danzig, Reval, Kiev, Budapest) and you will conquer Rome for your other condition, so you'll have at least 6 cities available. Since building them is easy, the condition should be more then 6, I think. So the player has to decide if he settles more tightly or to conquer one of his neighbor's cities. 7-8 would do it.

8 sounds good - 5 in Germany, Rome, Mediolanum / Venice (odds are you'll get one going for Rome), one from somewhere else.

I am still of the opinion HRE's third condition should be related to the Hanseatic League (see here). My first idea "5 cities at the Baltic Sea" seems to be the best way to represent it ... other thoughts?

Something like that sounds good. I'm just worried that fulfilling the 5 cities requirement would force you to invade Scandinavia - I don't know that there's room for 5 cities in the Baltic without that or at least Finland, but correct me if I'm wrong.

That would be nice, but it seems that this is difficult to implement. Has Rhye already done something like that?

I don't know. I don't know if the Dynamic Civ Names modcomp allows for naming based on what areas you control. It'd be awesome though.

I'd rather think it gets to easy if we replace the Britain condition with Austria.
Obviously, Rhye chose the current German UHV to represent its expansionist ambitions during the world wars. In both, Germany's enemies were France, Russia and Britain. Austria was an ally in WWI and a vassal in WWII (speaking in civ-terms ) ... so they are not really a target from the historical point of view.
Honestly, I would still conquer before I go to war, simply because Wien/Budapest is such an awesome production city

That's true. Probably then we should just add it rather than replace Britain with it, especially if you're likely to do that anyway. A sort of 'if you're going to already do it great, but if you don't do it you don't get the UHV' thing.

 

[wolfigor]

I think vassalization of certain civs is no good victory condition, because especially Europeans can be rather stubborn to capitulate. You certainly will have to destroy Netherlands before they surrender (they have no colonies in HRE's timeframe).

True.
I initially suggested vassallization to "simulate" the ambition of universality of the HRE.
However I agree that in CIV4 terms it doesn't work too well.

Conquering the Netherlands is a must because their territory was under HRE rule until very late.

Austria was an ally in WWI and a vassal in WWII (speaking in civ-terms ) ... so they are not really a target from the historical point of view.
Honestly, I would still conquer before I go to war, simply because Wien/Budapest is such an awesome production city

Hehehehe... effectively, in CIV terms, Germany and Austria had a defensive pact between them before WWI.
Rome, as Italy, re-spawned a few turns before WW1 set a defensive pact with Germany and then canceled it just in time.
When WWI started the crisscrossing network of defensive pacts generated WWI.
At the end of WWI Austria collapse and several independent states were formed.
Germany (like the AI always do) started conquering all those independents.
In 1939, Germany decided to give a last try to win its UHV and started WW2.

 

[dragodon64]

I guess Molotov-Ribbentrop was something like the forced 10 turn peace after a threat or request... except Germany figured out some way to break that.

 

[wolfigor]

I guess Molotov-Ribbentrop was something like the forced 10 turn peace after a threat or request... except Germany figured out some way to break that.

worldbuilder?

 

[BurnEmDown]

Maybe they just signed a "cease fire" agreement and Germany acted as if it was 10 turn peace agreement.