Ideas for VP changes & discussion

[pineappledan]

Oof... this was not the original intent of this thread...

If I may pull this back to balance discussion/proposals, I think the change to Churches in the last patch has made an opportunity to re-add the 3rd religious spread action back onto a wonder, where I think it belongs.

Proposal: Reduce the number of free missionaries on Borobodur to 2, and all missionaries trained in a city with Borobodur can spread religion 3 times (total number of religion spreads stays the same at 6).

reasoning:

• Having the 3rd spread on a building that could be built in multiple cities didn't feel good, because you only needed 1 city to purchase missionaries in. Wonders can only be built in 1 city anyways. Ta-daaah!
• Borobodur was slightly nerfed in one regard with the last patch (the stupa has worse yields than the monastery, assuming you weren't going to pick the prerequisite belief/policy for each building anyways.)
• There's already 2 other religious wonders which are heavilly focused on their instant boost (Hagia Sophia, St. Basil's), and few religious wonders which give sustained benefits outside of straight yields (Notre dame only gives 2 happiness, I'm not even sure people consider Angkor Wat a religious wonder)

 

[Gazebo]

I was talking about G finding a final version, and not doing his own updates anymore. I didnt mean for him to declare an "official" version of his own mod and then continue to release new "unofficial" versions and updates to it... that makes no sense. if VP gets finalized that by necessity requires him walking away from all this balance work. I was saying he can continue to put in if he likes assisting other people in creating mods, but i know thats not really his thing.

I wasnt here in the beginning but somebody correct me if im wrong, the reason he got the reigns to the 'community project' was that he was an indispensable modder because of his coding knowledge that most everyone else lacked. he could do magic with the DLL that like only one or 2 other people even could, and i think theyre gone now right? but with the mod being "feature complete" i dont think that heavy lifting in coding is necessary anymore, which leaves his main role being the balancer-in-chief... which, in reality is not something he is indispensable for. lots of people have their own ideas on balance and what it should be. Something that made me laugh was a post from 2014 stickied in this forum with him saying



it was true then, it's true now but i do think his views on that matter may have changed at some point along the way. thats just my own speculation though =)




this was the point im making. the balance changes continually being made end up introducing more bugs and AI quirks that need to be fixed. if major changes stop getting made you stop introducing new bugs and quirks and AI behaviors that need altering and changing, and suddenly finding a complete version for others to work off of becomes a reality. I've been at the point for a long time i'm ready to see other peoples ideas on balance within the game systems beyond just G's own ideas or the ones he single handedly approves or vetoes. starting with promotions probably, but how is anyone going to get a promotion mod-mod done when theyre still being changed constantly and the whole of the community always wants to be playing the latest version, because it has the necessary bugfixes to bugs that were just recently introduced...

making sense? no? idc. i am done with balance discussions honestly but i did break my own rule to report in on empiricism because its particularly egregious, its be a dishonor to G's work if i didnt mention it and that ever made it to a final version =)

You clearly have a bone to pick with me re: balance. And that’s fine. You don’t have to like the way I do things. Most people think I do a fine job taking dozens of opinions and AI work and molding them into a new game. I don’t aim to please all. Just the majorty.

Personally I think you’re spoiled by VP, and you forget what a typical development cycle for a game really feels like. If you decide to leave, give the wonderful balance and AI of Civ6 my regards.

G

 

[tu_79]

I don't get the fuzz. We're are already in one new development phase, since a few months. This doesn't mean the game is going to be perfectly polished in two months.

I understand the pain of the last few releases where the game cannot be enjoyed to the last turn, because of new mechanics needed of tweaks.

 

[ashendashin]

Oof... this was not the original intent of this thread...

If I may pull this back to balance discussion/proposals, I think the change to Churches in the last patch has made an opportunity to re-add the 3rd religious spread action back onto a wonder, where I think it belongs.

Proposal: Reduce the number of free missionaries on Borobodur to 2, and all missionaries trained in a city with Borobodur can spread religion 3 times (total number of religion spreads stays the same at 6).

reasoning:

• Having the 3rd spread on a building that could be built in multiple cities didn't feel good, because you only needed 1 city to purchase missionaries in. Wonders can only be built in 1 city anyways. Ta-daaah!
• Borobodur was slightly nerfed in one regard with the last patch (the stupa has worse yields than the monastery, assuming you weren't going to pick the prerequisite belief/policy for each building anyways.)
• There's already 2 other religious wonders which are heavilly focused on their instant boost (Hagia Sophia, St. Basil's), and few religious wonders which give sustained benefits outside of straight yields (Notre dame only gives 2 happiness, I'm not even sure people consider Angkor Wat a religious wonder)

I personally think 3 spread is just too much with some combos. Why not give all cities with your religion some tourism from the wonder? Or is tourism still a contentious issue?

Personally I think you’re spoiled by VP, and you forget what a typical development cycle for a game really feels like. If you decide to leave, give the wonderful balance and AI of Civ6 my regards.

We've all been spoiled . I don't think I'm alone in holding actual payed dev teams to a higher standard after discovering VP.

 

[pineappledan]

I personally think 3 spread is just too much with some combos.

I imagine Evangelism/Apostolic might get out of hand, yeah. Heaven forbid we generate synergies.
People might be worried that Byzantium would get its old pilgrim/apostolic evangelism combo back after churches was dropped from religion. I honestly don't see why that's a problem, those tenets have been gutted pretty hard over the last few patches, and all this would do is give Byzantium BACK one of its old synergies. It wouldn't necessarily make it stronger, but since it's now tied to a wonder that they have to compete for it is a greater risk.

Why not give all cities with your religion some tourism from the wonder?

Stupa is already tourism-focused, so not a bad idea. The main reason I suggested this though is that 3rd spread is lying fallow now

 

[ElliotS]

Stupa is already tourism-focused, so not a bad idea. The main reason I suggested this though is that 3rd spread is lying fallow now

Yeah, but that's for good reason. It's OP.

I feel like 3 spreads is like ancestral recall from MTG. Then we'll keep trying to make "fixed" versions of it that inevitably turn out to be broken.

The only place it could be put safely would be in modern era or later imo. Then you have good options for faith, follow yields don't scale well and you have less time to get value.

 

[Ziad]

Ooh Jehova's Witness wonder.

Have you heard of our lord and savior? 3 times in one day.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Ooh Jehova's Witness wonder.

Have you heard of our lord and savior? 3 times in one day.

Christo Redentor might make sense for 3 spreads.