Ideas for VP changes & discussion

[ElliotS]

VP changes ?
I'd rather prefer to see a solid, a final and a conclusive version 1.0
Then modmods can rebuild/enhance things from it.

The community around VP is amazing.
But i'm a bit tired with continual changes. Sometime big.

A discussions like this one is fun anyway

You can call whatever version you want 1.0 and stop updating. G isn't sitting on some perfectly balanced patch and keeping it hidden to keep making changes. We're trying to tune this thing to perfection, and it'll get there when it gets there.

 

[Deadstarre]

I'd rather prefer to see a solid, a final and a conclusive version 1.0

remember when every patch came with a note about VP being nearly complete? now you dont even see those words. 3+ years into the mod and policy trees are still being overhauled to balance with themselves, even spearmen combat strength was apparently still in the wrong spot you are of course right but don't hold your breath homie.

 

[Enginseer]

I've been waiting for this 1.0 version for so long that my mods are becoming obsolete now

 

[ashendashin]

remember when every patch came with a note about VP being nearly complete? now you dont even see those words. 3+ years into the mod and policy trees are still being overhauled to balance with themselves, even spearmen combat strength was apparently still in the wrong spot you are of course right but don't hold your breath homie.

Feature complete. It's not G's fault that all these balance changes look so fun to us.

 

[tu_79]

Well, at least there are no new features (new units, things like events, vassallage, corporations). Also, adding new code is very limited. This is the end of phase 1.

We are now in phase 2. Abilities can swap places, maybe one mechanic can increase its value, another be dropped. The focus on being balanced, fun and interesting. There are still a few rough edges, specially in extreme settings like map sizes.

Phase 3 will be just increase or decrease one point of culture or science here or there, so it becomes the most balanced possible. This is when you can start calling it VP 1.0, until then, all betas.

Of course, developers could make an exception for something exceptional, but I don't think it will be happening.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Though I agree with most of your analysis (G likes to push new ideas quite hard, to find a sweeter spot later), this one I just can't agree. Fealty was ignored by any civ with a focus on specialists. But now that it's a reliable source of food, it can be used for those civs with a focus on specialists (coming usually from Tradition) but with the bad luck of not having enough food in their settling lands.
Artistry is still quite potent IF you have enough food (good start, or good pantheon). Its strenght lies in the extra GP generation, mostly, and the extra tourism, which can lead to higher growth bonuses for your trade routes.

In a sense, the excesive synergy between tradition and artistry has been reduced. But artistry still is more benefitial for tall play (there can be only 3 of each guild, great works do better for smaller civs, open borders are given to friendly civs and tall civs have more friends), which is the usual settling pattern for Tradition.
I opened a thread not long ago about widening artistry. Seeing how artistry needs food now, I'd say that a good way to widen this policy tree is making it buff all food buildings. Something like "+1s/+1 c to granaries, aqueducts, grocers, and hospitals". Or "+1 GWAM points to granaries and grocers, +1 GSEM points to aqueducts and hospitals", if it conflicts with the scaler.

I dont think, Artistry needs more of something, it already has. You already get culture and science and GP Points by working specialists. Statecraft helps with getting CS alliances and increase its benefits. You get influence by trade routes, additional trade route to use this effect, increased influence by diplo units, additional spy to influence CS. Artistry may help getting great people and works, but it doesnt help with supplying specialists, the source of great people and works. I think, this is the great issue of this tree, its only ampliflying the result instead of helping with the requirements.
But I know what you mean. You like giving CV follower another options to pick, creating more diversity. But this attractivity is created from something, that is now much more worth for everyone. As CV follower, you have to chose between 2 policies, which increase the source OR the result of your power, but not really both. DipVic player have statecraft as core tree, DomVic have Authority, SciVic player have rationalismn. But CulVic player are split between 2 trees? That sounds a bit inconsequent. My suggestion isnt that big deal, we are talking about 5 more food or up to 20 saved food, if you work all specialists. But its a step towards helping CV heavy play. I dont think, any Domination or Science Victory targeting player really often picks Statecraft or Artistry. They take what Fealty gives, and while it already have some food sources, it doesnt really need giving even more. So for the Fealty tree, more extra food isnt essential or needed, but Artistry follower definitly need it.

 

[Ziad]

You could also consider that taking Artistry has precondition for having enough food to sustain it, while Fealty's food bonuses aren't nearly as relevant for those who have a lot of food already.

 

[Workerspam]

I do like the balance between Fealty giving you the food to support specialists even as some of it's policies are directed away from them (Serfdom and, indirectly through happiness, Divine Right) while Artistry rewards working specialists but without extra food to support them.

That said I'd welcome swapping out the +3 culture on guilds in Cultural Exchange with +3 food. It's not like Artistry needs more culture and the food would go directly to the cities that need it most.

 

[Gazebo]

VP changes ?
I'd rather prefer to see a solid, a final and a conclusive version 1.0
Then modmods can rebuild/enhance things from it.

The community around VP is amazing.
But i'm a bit tired with continual changes. Sometime big.

A discussion like this one is fun anyway

You do realize you can stop downloading the mod and just sit on a version, right? No one forces you to update.

Also, not sure if you realize just how entitled this sounds (give me perfection and I don't want to help fix it!).

Anyways, we're on version 3.1.14b. Y'all need to git gud and realize that your dreams are outdated by at least two years.

remember when every patch came with a note about VP being nearly complete? now you dont even see those words. 3+ years into the mod and policy trees are still being overhauled to balance with themselves, even spearmen combat strength was apparently still in the wrong spot you are of course right but don't hold your breath homie.

Classy. Balance changes for VP would have ended a year or two ago if not for the fact that we've been constantly rooting out bugs and AI quirks (majority of which are Firaxis-inflicted/abandoned). Turns out that a game being balanced around a broken AI is suddenly not so balanced when the AI is working as intended. Who knew?

I hear this 'why isn't the mod finished?' malarky way too often. We can stop any time you want. Just say the word, community, and VP development can end. I can definitely find a more productive use for my spare time.

G

 

[pineappledan]

I hear this 'why isn't the mod finished?' malarky way too often. We can stop any time you want. Just say the word, community, and VP development can end. I can definitely find a more productive use for my spare time.

Spoiler :

Nah but seriously, I agree that tweaks and modmods are muddling along at a good clip.

If I have 1 quibble it's that more recent balance updates have a tendency to feel like they aren't "integrated" through policies/UAs/wonders. A lot of that gets mitigated through later patches, and can sometimes just become part of the scenery, after a while.

1. half XP on unit purchase
   • Brandenburg is well positioned on tech tree to mitigate this. having another empire-wide offensive wonder would also be nice (Alhambra & Heroic Epic already bottleneck to 1 city)
2. Distance modifiers on trade routes
   • Morocco already modifies this with UA
   • Great Lighthouse or Colossus well-positioned to modify this mechanic, Free Trade policy could as well.
   • Could take many forms, reducing the short-distance penalty, or could redefine the 3rd most distant trade route as 100% and rescale from that (so you are guaranteed at least 3 possible trade routes with no distance penalty instead of 1)
3. New Resource Diversity Mechanic
   • Carthage already modifies this with UA
   • Mercantilism policy would be a great fit for this. It could double the bonus of sending trade routes from high diversity to low diversity targets
4. War Weariness
   • Honor policy already modifies this
   • A reduction in weariness could be a good fit for a particularly warlike civ's UA (Mongols or Ottomans perhaps)
5. GP tiles boosting future GP bulbing on empire
   • Maybe an ideology like New Deal or Spaceflight Pioneers could increase the per-tile effect of GP bulbing. New deal would particularly benefit from something like this, since new GP tiles are a poor proposition that late in the game, so it would give a bonus for both kinds of GP uses.

 

[crdvis16]

You do realize you can stop downloading the mod and just sit on a version, right? No one forces you to update.

Also, not sure if you realize just how entitled this sounds (give me perfection and I don't want to help fix it!).

Anyways, we're on version 3.1.14b. Y'all need to git gud and realize that your dreams are outdated by at least two years.



Classy. Balance changes for VP would have ended a year or two ago if not for the fact that we've been constantly rooting out bugs and AI quirks (majority of which are Firaxis-inflicted/abandoned). Turns out that a game being balanced around a broken AI is suddenly not so balanced when the AI is working as intended. Who knew?

I hear this 'why isn't the mod finished?' malarky way too often. We can stop any time you want. Just say the word, community, and VP development can end. I can definitely find a more productive use for my spare time.

G

Just know that for every person with an entitled attitude making demands there are quite a few of us that are really appreciative of the work that you and others do. There's also lots of us that read this forum and cringe from the tone that some of the posts take. I think a lot of the people that are overly demanding or critical really truly care about the game but just lack the awareness/tact to go about it the right way.

 

[Gazebo]

Just know that for every person with an entitled attitude making demands there are quite a few of us that are really appreciative of the work that you and others do. There's also lots of us that read this forum and cringe from the tone that some of the posts take. I think a lot of the people that are overly demanding or critical really truly care about the game but just lack the awareness/tact to go about it the right way.

I know. And sometimes the only way to truly get that across is to threaten to take away their toys.

Edit: also, for my non-native English speakers out there, 'malarky' is a powerful and mysterious word. Use it wisely, for it may guide you through dark times.

G

 

[Deadstarre]

certain i'll be outvoted but yeah put me in for a vote getting to the next stable version here and then complete/legacy VP, certainly. why not? i'm fairly certain others would come along to continue on with any necessary balance work through mod mods or simply modding the legacied VP as they saw fit. you know, theres a small chance they might even get a firmer grip on some of these balance issues than has been the case *gasp*. if you still wanted to contribute you could continue to do what you do best through bugfixing and AI work for anyone continuing on with it, or you could as you say find a more productive use of time for your talents. you deserve thanks for all your work no question about that, youve done a lot of good work through the years ('good' really a big understatement there) but... thats pretty much my take on the situation, yeah. threatening to walk away doesnt look like any threat to me unless theres something im really missing about all of this? the game is perfectly playable and will continue to be perfectly moddable. i dunno, if im missing something here let me know

 

[crdvis16]

certain i'll be outvoted but yeah put me in for a vote getting to the next stable version here and then complete/legacy VP, certainly. why not? i'm fairly certain others would come along to continue on with any necessary balance work through mod mods or simply modding the legacied VP as they saw fit. you know, theres a small chance they might even get a firmer grip on some of these balance issues than has been the case *gasp*. if you still wanted to contribute you could continue to do what you do best through bugfixing and AI work for anyone continuing on with it, or you could as you say find a more productive use of time for your talents. you deserve thanks for all your work no question about that, youve done a lot of good work through the years ('good' really a big understatement there) but... thats pretty much my take on the situation, yeah. threatening to walk away doesnt look like any threat to me unless theres something im really missing about all of this? the game is perfectly playable and will continue to be perfectly moddable. i dunno, if im missing something here let me know

Why do you need G to formally declare a stable version? No one is forcing you to download newer versions, or participate in balance discussions, or make posts on this forum. If you think the game is complete at this point then freeze this version on your computer and play it? I imagine there are probably a lot of people that do that- stick to a version they like and are happy.

Your post here is pretty much exhibit A for what makes me cringe.

 

[Deadstarre]

what about the word 'community' is not getting across to you in all of this? if i was the only person playing the game what youre saying might make sense, but you fail to take into account everyone who is interested in modding and building onto all of the work VP has already put in. they cant create mods off an official version when there is no official version, the fact that VP is continually changing is what stymies their work

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Just say the word, community, and VP development can end. I can definitely find a more productive use for my spare time.

G

No

 

[ashendashin]

what about the word 'community' is not getting across to you in all of this? if i was the only person playing the game what youre saying might make sense, but you fail to take into account everyone who is interested in modding and building onto all of the work VP has already put in. they cant create mods off an official version when there is no official version, the fact that VP is continually changing is what stymies their work

Every version is an official version. We only have so many officials to choose from! Bugs are still being found aplenty, and betas are only betas in the sense that more feedback is needed to set numbers.
If G declares a 'stable' version that is separate from updates, then it would literally just be an old version that gives modders a reason to hold off on updating to current (besides, you know, not being obligated to serve us beggars). Balancing has always been in hand with AI improvements and bugfixes.

 

[Deadstarre]

I was talking about G finding a final version, and not doing his own updates anymore. I didnt mean for him to declare an "official" version of his own mod and then continue to release new "unofficial" versions and updates to it... that makes no sense. if VP gets finalized that by necessity requires him walking away from all this balance work. I was saying he can continue to put in if he likes assisting other people in creating mods, but i know thats not really his thing.

I wasnt here in the beginning but somebody correct me if im wrong, the reason he got the reigns to the 'community project' was that he was an indispensable modder because of his coding knowledge that most everyone else lacked. he could do magic with the DLL that like only one or 2 other people even could, and i think theyre gone now right? but with the mod being "feature complete" i dont think that heavy lifting in coding is necessary anymore, which leaves his main role being the balancer-in-chief... which, in reality is not something he is indispensable for. lots of people have their own ideas on balance and what it should be. Something that made me laugh was a post from 2014 stickied in this forum with him saying

All thoughts to consider. I'm not the definitive source on balance!

G

it was true then, it's true now but i do think his views on that matter may have changed at some point along the way. thats just my own speculation though =)

Balancing has always been in hand with AI improvements and bugfixes.

this was the point im making. the balance changes continually being made end up introducing more bugs and AI quirks that need to be fixed. if major changes stop getting made you stop introducing new bugs and quirks and AI behaviors that need altering and changing, and suddenly finding a complete version for others to work off of becomes a reality. I've been at the point for a long time i'm ready to see other peoples ideas on balance within the game systems beyond just G's own ideas or the ones he single handedly approves or vetoes. starting with promotions probably, but how is anyone going to get a promotion mod-mod done when theyre still being changed constantly and the whole of the community always wants to be playing the latest version, because it has the necessary bugfixes to bugs that were just recently introduced...

making sense? no? idc. i am done with balance discussions honestly but i did break my own rule to report in on empiricism because its particularly egregious, its be a dishonor to G's work if i didnt mention it and that ever made it to a final version =)

 

[ashendashin]

I was talking about G finding a final version, and not doing his own updates anymore. I didnt mean for him to declare an "official" version of his own mod and then continue to release new "unofficial" versions and updates to it... that makes no sense. if VP gets finalized that by necessity requires him walking away from all this balance work. I was saying he can continue to put in if he likes assisting other people in creating mods, but i know thats not really his thing.

I wasnt here in the beginning but somebody correct me if im wrong, the reason he got the reigns to the 'community project' was that he was an indispensable modder because of his coding knowledge that most everyone else lacked. he could do magic with the DLL that like only one or 2 other people even could, and i think theyre gone now right? but with the mod being "feature complete" i dont think that heavy lifting in coding is necessary anymore, which leaves his main role being the balancer-in-chief... which, in reality is not something he is indispensable for. lots of people have their own ideas on balance and what it should be. Something that made me laugh was a post from 2014 stickied in this forum with him saying



it was true then, it's true now but i do think his views on that matter may have changed at some point along the way. thats just my own speculation though =)




this was the point im making. the balance changes continually being made end up introducing more bugs and AI quirks that need to be fixed. if major changes stop getting made you stop introducing new bugs and quirks and AI behaviors that need altering and changing, and suddenly finding a complete version for others to work off of becomes a reality. I've been at the point for a long time i'm ready to see other peoples ideas on balance within the game systems beyond just G's own ideas or the ones he single handedly approves or vetoes. starting with promotions probably, but how is anyone going to get a promotion mod-mod done when theyre still being changed constantly and the whole of the community always wants to be playing the latest version, because it has the necessary bugfixes to bugs that were just recently introduced...

making sense? no? idc. i am done with balance discussions honestly but i did break my own rule to report in on empiricism because its particularly egregious, its be a dishonor to G's work if i didnt mention it and that ever made it to a final version =)

Classy. Balance changes for VP would have ended a year or two ago if not for the fact that we've been constantly rooting out bugs and AI quirks (majority of which are Firaxis-inflicted/abandoned). Turns out that a game being balanced around a broken AI is suddenly not so balanced when the AI is working as intended. Who knew?

The core of the game is still an old mess that took all sorts of workarounds to reach where we are now, with G no doubt still wondering at the extent of Firaxis' ineptitude, and you want the guy who worked with it more than anyone else to drop it as soon as possible? No thanks, I like that core problems won't just be ignored in order to keep balance away from G. I've enjoyed his balancing anyhow.

 

[crdvis16]

I was talking about G finding a final version, and not doing his own updates anymore. I didnt mean for him to declare an "official" version of his own mod and then continue to release new "unofficial" versions and updates to it... that makes no sense. if VP gets finalized that by necessity requires him walking away from all this balance work. I was saying he can continue to put in if he likes assisting other people in creating mods, but i know thats not really his thing.

I wasnt here in the beginning but somebody correct me if im wrong, the reason he got the reigns to the 'community project' was that he was an indispensable modder because of his coding knowledge that most everyone else lacked. he could do magic with the DLL that like only one or 2 other people even could, and i think theyre gone now right? but with the mod being "feature complete" i dont think that heavy lifting in coding is necessary anymore, which leaves his main role being the balancer-in-chief... which, in reality is not something he is indispensable for. lots of people have their own ideas on balance and what it should be. Something that made me laugh was a post from 2014 stickied in this forum with him saying



it was true then, it's true now but i do think his views on that matter may have changed at some point along the way. thats just my own speculation though =)




this was the point im making. the balance changes continually being made end up introducing more bugs and AI quirks that need to be fixed. if major changes stop getting made you stop introducing new bugs and quirks and AI behaviors that need altering and changing, and suddenly finding a complete version for others to work off of becomes a reality. I've been at the point for a long time i'm ready to see other peoples ideas on balance within the game systems beyond just G's own ideas or the ones he single handedly approves or vetoes. starting with promotions probably, but how is anyone going to get a promotion mod-mod done when theyre still being changed constantly and the whole of the community always wants to be playing the latest version, because it has the necessary bugfixes to bugs that were just recently introduced...

making sense? no? idc. i am done with balance discussions honestly but i did break my own rule to report in on empiricism because its particularly egregious, its be a dishonor to G's work if i didnt mention it and that ever made it to a final version =)

I like how you complain that G should be done with balance changes and that he doesn't listen enough to others when it comes to making balance decisions and then you end your statement basically saying "except for this one balance change which is totally required because I agree with it".

Many of us like that he is still making balance changes or adding new features or tweaking the game to make it better. I personally don't care at all about any other mods to the game and I don't see why G would have to stop working on VP just because it would make it easier on other modders to alter the game how they see fit. Why can't those modders just decide on a version of VP to freeze for their use? Because lots of people like to install newer versions of VP? Sounds like the community has spoken, then- people want the newest versions of VP because they think the game is still getting better.

Also, I personally think G does a great job of listening and being open to the opinions of others. I have seen lots of threads where posters are able to change his mind about a change to the game that he was initially resistant to. Usually the people that are able to sway him make cogent arguments, don't act entitled, and preferably back their opinions up with data if possible. I wonder if your main issue with G is that he hasn't always taken your opinion as gospel, especially if you came at him with a know it all attitude. I'm certainly getting that vibe from every post you've made in this thread.