Ideas how to balance - Sons of Inferno

[Tascani]

Hey community,

I like the idea behind Sons of Inferno (SoI) but it needs a balance. Really.
Playing on immortal:

Problems might be:

a.) SoI come way too early
b.) SoI come too powerful - maybe they should rise over time
c.) exploiting the Clan Worldspell can end games very fast

The last point is not an multiplayer-only-issue as the screenshot shows.
(Okay I took some cities from Sheelba with Loki, okay that really DID upset her (-10 Diplo Modifier) and I can understand that she is attacking me, but 20 Axeman would be enough though)

Possible solutions:

a.) let them spawn later
b.) let gain their spell-sphere-promos later
c.) remove the orc racial promotion (of course we need to know if Kael intentionally decided to make them orc in order to make the Clan worldspell work)

This are very basic ideas. So maybe the community has some other ideas?

 

[Tlalynet]

C is confirmed to be a bug that M was supposed to fix but didn't

I favour both a unitcap and spawning later. As it is I hardly see Disciples of Archeron. 4\8\12 all seem alright as unitcaps, then you would see the other 50 or so units just being disciples.

 

[Ksi]

FtH with Son's of Inferno is a bug. As for the city, it's pretty ridiculous but I enjoy it. Makes conquering the lair something deserving of a trophy. I play on deity with raging and barb world so I definitely feel your pain. I do not want it changed but perhaps I am just masochistic.

 

[Onionsoilder]

I think there needs to be two changes:

1) Disciples upgrade to Sons of the Inferno later. I'm thinking around the time that Sorcery is researched, rather than Bronze Working.

2) Remove Sons of the Inferno free EXP gain. 10 Sons of the Inferno is pretty is pretty intimidating, but 10 Sons of the Inferno with Combat V and Drill IV is just frustrating. Not even heavily promoted Tier IV units like Shadows or Berzerkers can kill them, and they have a national limit(unlike Sons of the Inferno).

 

[Angel-Julia]

3) reduce SoI base strength. generally adepts/mages are physically weak units that need to be defended by other stronger units. but Str 8 with C5 is over-powerful even for a base melee unit at bronze working with no spell casting ability. but here they are fulfilling the roles of having more strength than the grunts while wielding impressive magical powers. Even well promoted shadows & assasins have troubles with a fortified STR 8 C5 Drill3 unit.

If we make them a bit more reasonable strength (e.g. Str 5) then they would still be an intimidating force to reckon with with their fire-elemental spawn. and they cant be killed that easily when hiding behind the protection of Aachon(seriously why do they need STR 8+C5 when they have Aachon as a meat shield), the difference is that if their strength was STR5 then even with C5 etc then it would become viable to pick them off with shadows etc before taking down the dragon. of course there are also often weak units in the stack that may need to be assasinated first.

 

[esvath]

I think there needs to be two changes:

1) Disciples upgrade to Sons of the Inferno later. I'm thinking around the time that Sorcery is researched, rather than Bronze Working.

Agree, and require Disciple level 4/6/8 to upgrade to SoI.

2) Remove Sons of the Inferno free EXP gain. 10 Sons of the Inferno is pretty is pretty intimidating, but 10 Sons of the Inferno with Combat V and Drill IV is just frustrating. Not even heavily promoted Tier IV units like Shadows or Berzerkers can kill them, and they have a national limit(unlike Sons of the Inferno).

3) reduce SoI base strength. generally adepts/mages are physically weak units that need to be defended by other stronger units.

I prefer reducing SoI base strength than removing their free XP gain.

And, I also agree with national limit of 4/6/8. So only a group of elite SoI, while the others are hordes of Disciple.

By the way, where is the function/python/xml that control when Disciple spawn and how many?

Thanks.

 

[Folket]

Let you shadows kill some units to get combat V. Buff them with poison blade. Then bombard the city defences down(sacrificing man o'wars is a good way for a costal city). Now your shadows should be able to take out the SoIs.

 

[DaveGold]

Let you shadows kill some units to get combat V. Buff them with poison blade. Then bombard the city defences down(sacrificing man o'wars is a good way for a costal city). Now your shadows should be able to take out the SoIs.

Not a stack of twenty they're not, no!

 

[Angel-Julia]

yeah, shadows can take down a couple, but 20 or 50 Str 8 C5 SoI is a bit much for a bunch of shadows.

so, it looks like the best option would be a combination of national limit (4/6/8) and reducing their base strength to 5. it is still quite an effort to get shadows at the same time as researching melee and magic line.

making it that they also build hawks etc could prove interesting, a counter to the shadows.

 

[DaveGold]

Another problem with the SoI is that the dragon's city stops sending out barbarian raids as soon as it builds the mages. If you've a city on the border you can pretty much tell when the dragon has stopped building regular units and sending them towards you. If TumTum arrives there will be a flurry of unit building, he'll leave will a little army, and then it's all quiet again.

My favourite solution would be for the SoI to be removed and for the dragon to cast a pillar of flame every turn. I prefer the dragon being the big flaming enemy, not his henchmen. Perhaps if he can't do the big flaming damage there could be a building in the dragon's city or a summoned puppet that can act on his behalf.

 

[Angel-Julia]

I agree, the barb city should still be sending out units all the time, that's what makes barb cities interesting.

what about if 70% of the the SoI were put on aggresive AI instead of just to guard the dragon, that would make the barb city excert more influence over the area as opposed to just stockpiling units. also 1-2 random wandering SoI can be taken down if you are prepaired, as opposed to dealing with a stack of 20-50 all in one go when approaching the city.

another effect of reducing the base strength of SoI is that the AI wont see them as so overpowered, so they will also build other units instead of building nothing but SoI

 

[mcwill123]

In my opinion, SoI doesn't need nerfed and neither does the dragon's lair. What's wrong with them being tough? Also i have no pity for anyone complaining about things being rough on immortal or deity. Remember originally immortal was supposed to be incrediby difficult and diety impossible. All just my opinion. I'm sure not many will agree

 

[Angel-Julia]

yeah, i agree, making something a challenge makes the game more fun. if something is too easy then it no longer feels like an achievement.

i was actually mainly going along with the discussion for making the game balanced and interesting, e.g. making their base strength makes assasinating them an option, though top strength units would still have to deal with Aachon meat shield. and with them building hawks it would make the assasination game more fun.

making it so the city builds rading parties and changing some of the AI so some SoI leave the city also means that the dragons lair is also no longer something you can just ignore in your backyard. i think that makes the dragons lair more interactive, and also a challenge in imortal/diety while you are occupied with other threats. also reducing the pointless stacking of SoI in a city.

increasing the reward is also one option suggested before. i often just ignore the lair as it doesnt pose a real thret to my civilization, and i'm more busy with the early warrior/axe rush, and often wipe the world by the time i get to champions, so end-game units, shadows etc rarely appear in my games. thus i rarely bother with the lair, just a few games i did it for fun but not every game. i get more reward whipping the AI's behind, conquering the world, and then ending the game.

slightly off-topic: one other idea would be to increase the area of effect of Aachon, by making it possible that he could leave the city, though would only fly maximum 5 tiles from his home(so he doesnt just walk the map wiping everything out at the start of the game). that could also add an interesting game dynamics, as he swoops on unsuspecting travelers walking near the city. it also leads to the use of different tactics, e.g. lure Aachon out of the city and then swoop in with a fast attack force to raid his lair while he's out pilaging the farmlands.

 

[DaveGold]

In my opinion, SoI doesn't need nerfed and neither does the dragon's lair. What's wrong with them being tough?

You interact with the dragon less when the SoI are present. It becomes less interesting. It becomes wallpaper.

As another note, the dragon's city doesn't seem to produce workers any more and the tiles around the city don't get worked. Perhaps this is happening in other barbarian cities too. I don't know if this was intentional or not.

 

[Tlalynet]

I originally thought they would send out raiding parties of DoA and SoI. I would be in favour of that because it would make things more difficult but they wouldn't just sit there getting a stack of doom.

 

[Rystic]

I'll be honest... I just removed them from the Tweakmod.

 

[Goodwill]

In my opinion, SoI doesn't need nerfed and neither does the dragon's lair. What's wrong with them being tough? Also i have no pity for anyone complaining about things being rough on immortal or deity. Remember originally immortal was supposed to be incrediby difficult and diety impossible. All just my opinion. I'm sure not many will agree

Except there's a big jump from Emperor to Immortal. I play on Immortal only because Emperor is much too easy, not in order to be a masochist. It doesn't mean I'm looking for total ridiculousness lol.

Maybe I haven't run into some of the experiences of others yet, like the game ending early. So far, these guys have been just really annoying when I have a city with working tiles in range of their elementals, but otherwise they just stay in their city and unless I want to take it, they don't really matter at all.

 

[Tasunke]

Only one addition needs to be added:

National Limit.

everything else is fine in my book. Maybe there should be a poll?

 

[Kansalaispoliis]

After the initial shock I've managed to down Dragontown several times. I'd rather not see the Sons nerfed but as it is you can only go for the kill in the endgame.

With your army you can take down Acheron, but you could also attack a rival and, you know, be on your way to win the game. Acheron's reward should be worthwhile to go after. I haven't had any benefit for the wins other than the joy of slaying (and once capturing.. I laughed when he fit to a ship. And cried when the ship was sunk by fireballs ) the big monster.

The hoard simply isn't worth it in the late game. If I want to win the game I'm better off leaving him alone, it doesn't benefit me in any way.

Maybe leave the hoard alone and let the dragon drop some stuff if killed. Dragonskin Armor for nigh-immunity to spells? Dragontooth Necklace for strength? Baby Fire Dragon that evolves to Acheron's power if given enough kills? The ability to build Sons of Inferno (4) in city that has the hoard?

 

[Angel-Julia]

i agree, its nice to have a good challenge, though as you stated it's only for the end game after you've already won. i'd like to see taking down Acheron a key strategic move in the game instead of just wallpaper and something to do if you're board.