Ideas how to balance - Sons of Inferno

[esvath]

Why do SoI and DoA only sit in the city, not exploring like other barbs? Is it because the AI? I think it would be more interesting if SoIs and DoAs are able to explore and terror cities.

 

[Angel-Julia]

For those interested in nerfing SOI then here is a zip you can try. the Civ4ClassInfo.XML limits the national limit to 4. The unit infos reduce its strength to 5, and change the AI, attack one sets it to attack, (though as a spell caster atttacking might not be good as it could die) the pillage one is an attempt to make it leave the city and cause havock, though not attack (and potentially die) and just pillage.
their summons are still full strength, so they could potentially be very dangerous, it is untested as i havent got time to play today, though will do soon.

it goes into the following directory: ...\Assets\XML\Units

Edit: I updated the zip file so that now SoI is limited to 4, Disciples of Acheron limited to 8, and SoI have Mage AI.

I havent had a chance to test it yet, so there may be unexpected results from the changed AI. I will be testing the impact this weekend in a diety game so will let people know how it goes.

try it out and see what you think of their national limit, strength reduction and changed AI.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

A national unit limit alone won't help, as the units are generated in python. You can borrow from the python prereq of the Lichdom spell to figure out how you can limit there number.

The way i have it in my version there can be up to 8 Disciples of Acheron at a time and 4 Sons of the Inferno. If there are already 4 of the latter but not 8 of the former the former will be generated even after the right tech is known.

Also, both units are UNITCOMBAT_DISCIPLE, so they can earn better promotions.

It is not The Dragon's horde that generates them, but a new wonder, The Shrine of the Inferno. This also gives the Fire I promotion to all units built in the city. This wonder cannot be captured.



The Dragon's Horde enters the game as a promotion on Acheron, not as a building in his city. When in building form it ones again provides a free source of Mithril as well as the Gems, Gold, and free Enchanted Blade promotion to units in the city.

 

[Tlalynet]

@ Angel

It looks good, but shouldn't you give them Mage AI instead of attacker AI? As it sits they are UNITAI_RESERVE so they just stockpile.

I think I'll try them out with UNITAI_MAGE when I get a chance and tell people how that went.

Actually Magisters UNITCOMBAT_DISCIPLE is probably better for them in a few ways.



Mage AI just had them sitting at home, Attack AI was causing them to wander around in high defence tiles throwing fire elementals everywhere, its cool but I would definitely need to nerf their STR like you suggested (and then some), UNITAI_ATTACK_CITY seemed to be working best because they would move to the nearest city and attack it and actually lose once in a while. Haven't fully tested UNITAI_ATTACK_CITY yet though.

 

[Angel-Julia]

Good idea also limiting the disciples to 8.
also UNITAI_MAGE is a good choice, i was considering using that. what i want is that they patroll an area around the city, though do not go out like the riders to take over the world, especially if they are walking the earth at a early time when people only have axemen etc, thus likely wiping out some AI civilisation.

In my current (huge map 10 player parganda diety) game i am aiming at a playing Lanun(aiming to become Mercurians), founded order, and am nearly up to fanatasism. there is a large patch of uninhabited jungle in the middle of the continent next to my cost-spamming settlements. the barbs havent summoned Acheron yet, though there is a good location barb city near my teritory that has potential for a lot of hamemr production, I plan to leave it for a while so they build acheron in order to see what happens when the SoI are unleashed on my land. I guess that's the best way to test how the AI works. maybe the roaming SoI might even work in my favour in my Mercirian game as that means more angels for me.

I imagine this change in AI will mean the barb city becomes a bigger threat, though the lack of stockpiling so ii will mean that it shouldent be quite as hard to take out in the mid-game as if there are 50+ SoI.

BTW please ignore my previous ZIP, i mde it hastily in 10min before rushing to the bus. I'll make a better version shortly, and test it on the weekend. I think i also might have accidently left a bug in one of the files, i'll check it shortly.

I'd also be interested in testing Magister's version, see what a different flavour the SoI add.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I would think the proper AI for them is UNITAI_WARWIZARD

 

[Tlalynet]

I did try WarWizard second, but they just sat at home. Did I not wait long enough for them to do anything? I only gave them 20 turns as warwizards before I tried a new script.

Patrolling the city radius would be fantastic. At least you could whittle them down.

 

[Tlalynet]

Double Post

 

[Jarrema]

I strongly advocate idea of SoI and DoA going out of the city in SoD's.
It would be fun, if when national limit of SoI's is reached, 1-2 of them and a couple of other units go out of city.

 

[Tlalynet]

So far they have come out with three warriors or axemen and one SOI, the AI occationally loses a border town and I lose a handful of cheap defenders per stack but no one is dropping like flies.

Interestingly enough with Archie in the middle of a Pangaea he sends his stacks out in different directions every time, me and three other AI's all got our share of attacks.

If the Sons take a city they sit there forever so far as I can see, so they wont just go and take over the world anyway. Its produced some very good games.

Best of all, Archeron is beatable, he still typically has a SOI, a couple archers, and a handful of axes, but you can still take him down with courage boosted T2 or T3 troops, the dragons horde is worth claiming again and not just a post game challenge.

 

[Tholal]

I'm not sure exactly when or how it happened, but in my current game, the Lanun defeated and claimed Archeron's city before turn 185 (quick speed). Tsunami maybe since it was on the coast? Aside from Saverous, they don't seem to have any units bigger than swordsmen. The Hippus are also in the area, so maybe it was an inadvertent join effort on their part.

 

[DaveGold]

I strongly advocate idea of SoI and DoA going out of the city in SoD's.
It would be fun, if when national limit of SoI's is reached, 1-2 of them and a couple of other units go out of city.

Two strength 8 fully promoted units can wipe you out in the early game. I've had the clan take two with the world spell and the guys meleed through my city defenders (3 axemen, 3 warriors maybe) without a problem. You just don't have the ammunition at that stage to deal with them, you just have to sit behind your palisade and hope to get lucky.

 

[Tlalynet]

When the barbs control the Sons of Inferno with City Attack AI they sit on the first city they conquer, so they won't wipe anyone out unless that is the only city they have. The clan handles its units considerably better as far as I've seen, so I can see them wiping you out if they claim some with For the Horde.

I think that AI script is pretty good, although I wish they used their fire elements effectively, it would cost everyone another 2 defenders if they did.

 

[DaveGold]

When the barbs control the Sons of Inferno with City Attack AI they sit on the first city they conquer, so they won't wipe anyone out unless that is the only city they have.

If they take a holy city with wonders you'll still be wondering who let these invincible units come along and take you apart. That's certainly what I thought when it happened to me. It's not as if there's any way you're going to retake that city in a hurry.

 

[a_civilian]

What is the purpose of Acheron, and what should it be? Originally it was something you'd conquer for the dragon's hoard, or possibly because it was in your way. The sons of the inferno were probably designed to make this more difficult, but their effect is to make it impossible until late game. The suggestions to make the sons of the inferno attack make Acheron something else completely - almost another civilization.

 

[Tlalynet]

You have a good point there DaveGold, I've only lost pathetic border towns to them so I shrugged it off. It would be nasty to have to take up an offensive against a SoI defended city right away, when I've done it its been like war preparations against any other strong civ. That bridges nicely into a civilians comment, I wonder what the SoI are actually supposed to do? Its tempting to mod them out until they we know exactly how they should work.

Taking on the Horde with a couple SoI is very fun, but the stacks the unmoded game get kind of make the dragons area wallpaper as was mentioned earlier.

 

[zbelg]

What exactly is the point of things like SoI in the first place? When Acheron was alone I always thought it was a fun and challenging enough fight in the early game and occasionally the AI would take a try at it. Now it's just a nuisance that you have to wait until the late game to finish and I've only seen the AI waste armies trying to attack it. I can understand the SoI spawning as a punishment for leaving Acheron alone for a long enough time, but personally as it is now it seems like it's taken away a fun part of the early game rather than adding more flavor to the fight.

 

[Angel-Julia]

yeah, having SoI turn up as punishment for leaving Acheron alone for "too long" is good, though what about the SoI and fire elementals at turn 50? sometimes people dont even have axes at that stage, vs elemental, a bit unfair match.

one approach is to have SoI upgrade from lvl 3 units (well you'd expect an achmage to upgrade from a higher level unit). the DoA slowly gain exp so it will just take a bit longer before the SoI start showing up.

 

[esvath]

I do this :

1. Set SoI as National Units, limit : 4 (in CIV4UnitClassInfo.xml)
2. Set SoI require minimum level 6 to upgrade to (in CIV4UnitInfo.xml)
3. Change the python code in CvEventManager.py into this :

if pCity.getNumRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_THE_DRAGONS_HORDE')) > 0:
			if pPlayer.isBarbarian():
				if CyGame().getSorenRandNum(100, "Bob") <= gc.getHandicapInfo(gc.getGame().getHandicapType()).getLairSpawnRate():
					if pPlayer.getUnitClassCount(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_DISCIPLE_OF_ACHERON')) <= 8:
						iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_DISCIPLE_OF_ACHERON')
					newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(iUnit, pPlot.getX(), pPlot.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI, DirectionTypes.DIRECTION_SOUTH)

That means (if I did it correctly ) :

• Only DoA spawn in Acheron City, with limit of 8.
• Level 6 DoAs will be upgraded into SoI when barbarian has Sorcery Tech.
• SoIs will be limited, max 4 at a time.
• When a DoA is upgraded into SoI, the Dragons Horde will spawn another DoA to keep the number of 8.

 

[Folket]

I killed 15 sons of inferno with four shadows.

The secret is to bombard the city to 0% after that the sons are easy to kill.