Ideas to Improve Liberation Mechanic

[Putmalk]

(Also posted on the official Civ 5 forums. Link can be seen here: http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?109973-Ideas-to-Improve-Liberation-Mechanic)

I see a lot of complaints about the Liberation mechanic, and many of them are extremely justified. Liberation is supposed to be a tool of diplomacy, and Liberation should benefit both the liberator and the liberated, or else it's a waste of time. The goal should be to mitigate warmongering, keeping a balance between the benefits received through liberation and the benefits received through conquering.

Therefore, these are my suggestions:

Major Civilizations

• Upon liberation of a major civilization, both civilizations automatically enter a 10-turn peace treaty. The Liberator receives a 50-turn massive positive modifier ("You have liberated us!").
• The Liberated receives 50% of the Liberator's science as free beakers for 50 turns. This bonus is reduced by 5% for each subsequent city liberated. The main goal of this is to give the liberated civilization a chance to get back into the mix, but as they get their cities, and their own science back, this bonus becomes less to compensate.
• After 50 turns, all "Liberated" bonuses expire. The Liberated bonus does not receive their free science anymore, the peace treaty ends, the protection pact ends, and the positive modifier expires, replaced by a smaller positive modifier. ("You have liberated us in the past.")
• For each city liberated, the Liberator receives a stacking positive modifier that diminishes over time. ("You have liberated our citizens.") In addition, every liberated city reduces the global warmongering penalty by a small amount. Liberating the capital grants a separate, permanent positive modifier ("You liberated our original capital!")
• You receive +5 Happiness for liberating the capital of a rival civilization.
• For each positive modifier granted by the liberated civilization, the original captors give a negative modifier. ("You liberated an enemy capital from us!" "You liberated an enemy city from us!" "You liberated an enemy civilization under our control!")
• Liberated civilizations must vote for their liberator in the UN.
• Liberating a civilization will remove their desire to backstab you for 100 turns.

Minor Civilizations

• Liberating a city-state immediately grants you 250 Influence with that city-state. The player and the city-state immediately end a 10-turn peace treaty.
• Liberating a city-state heavily reduces your warmongering penalty.
• Liberating a city-state has a chance to remove the Permanent War status from other city-states.
• You receive a permanent negative modifier against the civilization that you liberated the city-state from ("You liberated a city-state under our control!")
• You receive +5 Happiness from liberating a city-state. You lose the bonus Happiness if the city-state is recaptured.

Penalties to Liberation

• Your empire does not grow. You do not gain extra territory and science, gold, etc. from extra cities.
• You severely slow your chances of winning a Domination Victory. However, you greatly increase your chances of winning a Diplomatic Victory.
• You still retain heavy war negative modifiers with the civ that you liberated the cities from.
• Declaring war on a civilization that you liberated will incur massive diplomatic penalties. ("You backstabbed us!" "You backstabbed a liberated civilization!" "They think we are a warmongering menace to the world!")

You can tie this mechanic into the Policy system. For example, Patronage:

- Liberated city-states grant 2 additional Happiness.

And Freedom:

- You receive 20% of a liberated city's generated Science, Gold, and Culture.

 

[Naokaukodem]

It seems good. However:

For each positive modifier granted by the liberated civilization, the original captors give a negative modifier. ("You liberated an enemy capital from us!" "You liberated an enemy city from us!" "You liberated an enemy civilization under our control!")

You still retain heavy war negative modifiers with the civ that you liberated the cities from.

It rather is manichean: in reality, most of the governments will not protest against the rule of the strongest when they try it themselves.

 

[Putmalk]

It seems good. However:





It rather is manichean: in reality, most of the governments will not protest against the rule of the strongest when they try it themselves.

A little clarification:

Persia conquers Greece.

America liberates Greek cities.

Greece loves America, Persia retains warmonger status against America.

Unless I missed what you are trying to say. Did you think I meant that Greece would think America was a warmonger in this scenario?

 

[Naokaukodem]

No I meant that Persia will not have rep hits towards America, because after all they (Persia) conquered Greece first, so being conquered back is just the game (reality game)... i guess.

 

[Putmalk]

No I meant that Persia will not have rep hits towards America, because after all they (Persia) conquered Greece first, so being conquered back is just the game (reality game)... i guess.

Oh okay. I suggested that though because...really, who likes getting their cities captured and then liberated? They're trying to win a domination game, after all.

 

[Sonereal]

Major Civilizations

• Upon liberation of a major civilization, both civilizations automatically enter a 10-turn peace treaty. The Liberator receives a 50-turn massive positive modifier ("You have liberated us!").
• The Liberated receives 50% of the Liberator's science as free beakers for 50 turns. This bonus is reduced by 5% for each subsequent city liberated. The main goal of this is to give the liberated civilization a chance to get back into the mix, but as they get their cities, and their own science back, this bonus becomes less to compensate.
• Both civilizations enter a 50-turn mutual protection pact.
• After 50 turns, all "Liberated" bonuses expire. The Liberated bonus does not receive their free science anymore, the peace treaty ends, the protection pact ends, and the positive modifier expires, replaced by a smaller positive modifier. ("You have liberated us in the past.")
• For each city liberated, the Liberator receives a stacking positive modifier that diminishes over time. ("You have liberated our citizens.") In addition, every liberated city reduces the global warmongering penalty by a small amount. Liberating the capital grants a separate, permanent positive modifier ("You liberated our original capital!")
• You receive +5 Happiness for liberating the capital of a rival civilization.
• For each positive modifier granted by the liberated civilization, the original captors give a negative modifier. ("You liberated an enemy capital from us!" "You liberated an enemy city from us!" "You liberated an enemy civilization under our control!")
• Liberated civilizations must vote for their liberator in the UN.
• Liberating a civilization will remove their desire to backstab you for 100 turns.

1.) I think the defensive pact should scale to game speed and be the standard length as it is in CivV already.

2.) Massive liberator modifier, yes! This is a great idea.

3.) Liberated civilizations shouldn't be forced to vote every single time, but for a long time.

4.) No backstabbing? Yes.

5.) The Liberation bonus sounds nice.

Minor Civilizations

• Liberating a city-state immediately grants you 250 Influence with that city-state. The player and the city-state immediately end a 10-turn peace treaty.
• Liberating a city-state heavily reduces your warmongering penalty.
• Liberating a city-state has a chance to remove the Permanent War status from other city-states.
• You receive a permanent negative modifier against the civilization that you liberated the city-state from ("You liberated a city-state under our control!")
• You receive +5 Happiness from liberating a city-state.

Full agreement on this.

Penalties to Liberation

• Your empire does not grow. You do not gain extra territory and science, gold, etc. from extra cities.
• You severely slow your chances of winning a Domination Victory. However, you greatly increase your chances of winning a Diplomatic Victory.
• You still retain heavy war negative modifiers with the civ that you liberated the cities from.
• Declaring war on a civilization that you liberated will incur massive diplomatic penalties. ("You backstabbed us!" "You backstabbed a liberated civilization!" "They think we are a warmongering menace to the world!")

The advantages outweigh the penalties though, which is good. Overall, you have really good ideas. Might be a little rough around the edges but what it's aiming for is spot on.

 

[Camikaze]

Minor Civilizations
[...]
You receive a permanent negative modifier against the civilization that you liberated the city-state from ("You liberated a city-state under our control!")

Similarly to what Naokaukodem was saying, I don't think this negative modifier is necessary. Presumably they'd be unhappy with you for being at war with them, and I don't see why they'd dislike you more for liberating the city than for keeping it for yourself.

 

[HammerandSickle]

This. Is. AWESOME!!
If they adopt it into the game, I won't hesitate in liberating every conquered city in the world!

 

[qemist]

Liberation is a gimmick that detracts from realism. When the Americans took Rome in WW2, reviving the Roman Empire wasn't one of their options, yet in Civ5 I can somehow restore a civil order that was destroyed thousands of years ago. I'm sure some people think its cute, but if it interferes with the game play then it should go.

 

[Camikaze]

I don't really think it's that gimmicky. The Americans couldn't revive the Roman Empire, but France was liberated. The mechanic doesn't apply to cities you are conquering, but cities you are taking off a conqueror.

 

[ForzaFiori]

Liberation is a gimmick that detracts from realism. When the Americans took Rome in WW2, reviving the Roman Empire wasn't one of their options, yet in Civ5 I can somehow restore a civil order that was destroyed thousands of years ago. I'm sure some people think its cute, but if it interferes with the game play then it should go.

America has liberated France (twice), Panama, and Kuwait, and took part in the creation of the state of Israel., is currently working on liberating Iraq and Afghanistan, and has shaped the governments of Italy, Germany, South Korea, and Japan.

We're pretty practiced at helping people get their country back actually.

 

[JWAT44]

Liberation is a gimmick that detracts from realism. When the Americans took Rome in WW2, reviving the Roman Empire wasn't one of their options, yet in Civ5 I can somehow restore a civil order that was destroyed thousands of years ago. I'm sure some people think its cute, but if it interferes with the game play then it should go.

yeah liberation is pretty common and i understand it isnt something like the roman empire but liberation of nations from foreign conquerors is very realistic

 

[qemist]

yeah liberation is pretty common and i understand it isnt something like the roman empire but liberation of nations from foreign conquerors is very realistic

No it isn't in the circumstances to which I alluded. Tell me about all the nations which have been liberated from conquerors after more than 1,000 years please. Which nations were liberated in the 20th century and how long had they been occupied?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

No it isn't in the circumstances to which I alluded. Tell me about all the nations which have been liberated from conquerors after more than 1,000 years please. Which nations were liberated in the 20th century and how long had they been occupied?

Very few nations have been occupied for more than 1,000 years by another empire in the first place.

in most cases they were
1. Conquered by a large empire and razed/resettled
OR
2. Conquered by a large empire and then Self Liberated after the conquering empire fell apart within 100 years or so (European colonial empires, many middle eastern empires)
OR
3. Conquered by a group of barbarians that assimilated (effectively changing the upperclass+government structure... most of the Western Roman Empire)

 

[Louis XXIV]

I realize it was more of a homegrown revolution (with support of foreign powers), but Greece qualifies as a destroyed state that was brought back to life. With the abstraction of Civilization, that falls under the liberation mechanic. If it weren't for the 27 year time gap, Israel could count as another (conquered by the Romans, taken from them by the Arabs, taken from them by the Ottomans, liberated by the English. I suppose the mandate system makes it more borderline as well). Poland absolutely would qualify.

 

[Putmalk]

Hey guys,

Since this thread was revived, I'll update the original OP with things I've added in on the 2k forums post.

 

[dexters]

I support the idea of a massive modifier for liberation of a City/ and capital.

I also think there needs to be new lines of code written where a Civ, either with conquered cities, or newly liberated from extinction comes to the table and talk about what they want to achieve.

ie: so and so has taken my cities/I want them back.

There's a lack of depth/immersion once you liberate even with the presumed bonuses. They go on business as usual. The AI likely retains enmity against the conquering civs for taking the capital but they do not act on it other than simply not liking the civ that took cities from them. And they are often too weak to do anything about it, so they j ust putter around the remainder of the game OCCing or joining dumb coalitions for quick cash.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I think there should be a liberation option for cities of even unconquered Civs. It'll give you less of a boost, but it should be somewhere between freeing a worker (8 or so) and liberating and reviving a capital (80).

I also do think the AI should liberate your cities if they were conquered, but, obviously, they can't force you to like them as a consequence. Instead, I'd recommend very friendly civs are likely to give you the cities, while neutral or hostile civs will probably keep them.

 

[qemist]

Very few nations have been occupied for more than 1,000 years by another empire in the first place.

How many many nations that were in existence 1,000 or more years ago currently exist? by C5 logic they are occupied and should be liberatable. In fact they are not so the C5 mechanic lacks verisimilitude. The fact is C5 lets me liberate a civilization that died any time in the past, however remote. The mechanic distorts other aspects of the game. We cannot raze a CS because that would prevent liberation. So we must suppose CS have indestructible buildings and undispersible people. Is that realistic?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

How many many nations that were in existence 1,000 or more years ago currently exist? by C5 logic they are occupied and should be liberatable. In fact they are not so the C5 mechanic lacks verisimilitude. The fact is C5 lets me liberate a civilization that died any time in the past, however remote. The mechanic distorts other aspects of the game. We cannot raze a CS because that would prevent liberation. So we must suppose CS have indestructible buildings and undispersible people. Is that realistic?

C5 also assumes that a civilization will never collapse internally or fragment into parts. (in real live most "civilizations" are not 'occupied' instead they are 'self-liberated', although they have changed over the millenia.)

Most "cities" in Civ 5 = an average sized country in real life.

"Liberating the Roman Empire" is not possible because the areas of the Roman empire were either
1. "Razed and resettled"
or
2. Rome is already liberated, ie Modern Roman Empire=Italy (they have a different government and language, but those thing change over time in a civilization)