Ideology Civics

[DRJ]

Currently, none of them require any technology prerequisites, contrary to all other civics. I may change that, but am open to suggestions.

Yes, they all need prerequisites, I think.
Maybe always a right and a left wing ideology available with same tech (or closely to tech after another).

Also, I personally feel that the left/liberal side is underpowered and the right/conservative side is overpowered; convince me that I'm right or wrong.

Absolutely right!
As it is now, I almost always use the right wing-ideologies, whereas I really would like to be able to chose the "left" side of the spectrum equally (that's what it is about anyway: equality) - as it suits my personal political views much better. Now I almost feel guilty when playing civ - and it's your fault!!!

Use at your own risk.

Damn, you ensured yourself already!

 

[Afforess]

I did some major revamping, as I didn't like the way they were. Hopefully they are almost done.

 

[DRJ]

I like the new tweaks very much. Now its all about culture/happy/healthy vs gold/science/army boost...
Guess the latter one will provide the majority most of the time - as well as usually seen in history...
I will need to work out a strategy to counter that!

One last thing to tweak the the progressive side could be the conscription/draft ability, if they have researched the tech "grand war", simulating creation of a type of french revolutionary army (Progressivism gets possibilty for 2 drafts/turn) or early red army (Socialism gets possibilty for 5 drafts/turn) and such defensive effects of ideology/military - as allready included in right wing civics as +XY free units/turn -

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Downloaded and about to try. I am pretty sure that you can put the game text XML in your module rather than in the base XML folder keeping the whole thing more modular.

 

[Afforess]

Downloaded and about to try. I am pretty sure that you can put the game text XML in your module rather than in the base XML folder keeping the whole thing more modular.

Usually, you can. Apparently, with civics, you can't. I tried it that way originally, and all I got was a ton of TXT_KEY_CIVIC_OPTION...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I learn something new every day

 

[Afforess]

Updated. Ideology Civics is out of testing and ready for gameplay.

 

[Afforess]

Updated for Rise of Mankind 2.71. Please re-download.

 

[civhelp121]

I personally think that civics like egalitarianism and Progressivism increase city maintenance too much. They already have higher upkeep and later in the game a couple happieness or healthieness bonuses or a specialist or two don't really make up for the costs. On the other hand things like capitalism and individualism cost a lot less and still give nearly as good benefits. If by capitalism you refer to pure capitalism rather than what most civilizations have now then it should add significantly more unhealthiness and unhappieness considering the miserable conditions ordinary people lived in during those times.

one question, does this modmod and your realistic diplomacy mod work for the newest version of rise of mankind?

 

[Afforess]

I personally think that civics like egalitarianism and Progressivism increase city maintenance too much.

Historically, their costs have been high. I feel that the bonuses are fairly equal. In a large empire, 10% increase in maintenance is equal to approx 15 gold/turn. That seems fair for 1 free specialist in EVERY city. Heck, 7 or 8 merchants could outweigh the costs easily. That doesn't even account for the culture and health bonuses.

If by capitalism you refer to pure capitalism rather than what most civilizations have now then it should add significantly more unhealthiness and unhappieness considering the miserable conditions ordinary people lived in during those times.

Most countries have mixed capitalist systems. Very very few have ever been "Pure" capitalist. Regardless, I'm not here to force a political philosophy on someone. Just because you seem to favor liberalism doesn't mean I can weaken conservatism, just because you disagree with it. I had long discussions earlier about this issue, where I believe we resolved the civics pretty nicely. I don't mean to ignore you, I just disagree with you.

one question, does this modmod and your realistic diplomacy mod work for the newest version of rise of mankind?

ALL of my modules are compatible with one another.

 

[civhelp121]

Most countries have mixed capitalist systems. Very very few have ever been "Pure" capitalist. Regardless, I'm not here to force a political philosophy on someone. Just because you seem to favor liberalism doesn't mean I can weaken conservatism, just because you disagree with it. I had long discussions earlier about this issue, where I believe we resolved the civics pretty nicely. I don't mean to ignore you, I just disagree with you.

This is absolutly not a political debate. There is absolutly no one who can argue that pure capitalism, as you civic suggests, caused no change in happieness or unhealthieness. Child Labour, extremly low wage, and more all exist in pure capitalist nations and all cause unhappieness. To argue that its a political debate to argue that those two, specifically, cause unhappieness is rediculous.

As for my other question, I think you have a good point.

 

[Afforess]

This is absolutly not a political debate. There is absolutly no one who can argue that pure capitalism...

Would you prefer I call it "Free Enterprise" then?

Child Labour, extremly low wage, and more all exist in pure capitalist nations and all cause unhappieness.

My Civics do reflect that, see for yourself.

Individualism
+1 Unhappiness in largest cities

Objectivism
+2 Unhappiness in largest cities

 

[rongo]

Europe is very socialist and yet, look at all the wars over there in the past several hundred years that had the peoples support.

um... You and me have different meanings of peoples support in mind... I hope.

The whole idea is grat.

 

[civhelp121]

Capitalism (Low Upkeep)
-10% city maintenance
-10% corporation costs

I don't see any unhappieness or unhealthieness in there

 

[Afforess]

Capitalism (Low Upkeep)
-10% city maintenance
-10% corporation costs

I don't see any unhappieness or unhealthieness in there

I didn't feel that Capitalism needed weakening, since Egalitarianism was already good. If you really care, it isn't hard to open up the Ideology_Civ4CivicInfos.xml and tweak the <ihealth> and <ihappiness> tags from 0 to -1 or whatever you desire. That's the whole point of modding... Changing the game to fit your will.

 

[James009]

I can imagine that this is a difficult mod to make without favoring certain ideologies but I believe that you have done a good job despite the favoritism towards socialism.

However, my game begins with Banditry selected as my placeholder for the ideology. Perhaps you should create a "None" ideology or something to replace it. btw, I am using your civics multi-pack.

 

[Afforess]

I can imagine that this is a difficult mod to make without favoring certain ideologies but I believe that you have done a good job despite the favoritism towards socialism.

Dang, I was hoping that its "Astronomical" Upkeep would balance it.

However, my game begins with Banditry selected as my placeholder for the ideology. Perhaps you should create a "None" ideology or something to replace it. btw, I am using your civics multi-pack.

I have fixed it. Please re-download my pack.

 

[civ_king]

Okay, how do they look now? Ultra conserv gives +5 unhealthy instead of 4, and +2 happy. Conservative gives +1 happy. All the liberals get a culture boost. Also, I mentioned the broadcast tower in liberal and ultra liberal.

My rational for conservative espionage bonus is that ultra conservatives (like Sean Hannity) have no qualms with waterboarding to "retrieve" information, whereas liberals would.

therein lies the issue, waterboarding has yielded 0 extra information than could be obtained by means within the Geneva Conventions and some believe it has hardened the enemy against us leading to less info... also from observing history conservative and xenophobic nationalism walk hand in hand, so there should be a penalty by having a culture exceed say 10% of a city, each 5% above that yields an extra unhappiness

Whoa whoa whoa, liberals ideology more scientific than conservative? That's kinda offensive, you should really think about removing the science slider because the only difference between the ideologies science wise in general is conservatives generally are religious, and liberals generally are less inclined to be so. Liberals are generally believing in the theory of evolution, conservatives do not.

The gold, culture and espionage sliders however do represent the parties well. But, there is another problem, while it is true in this country liberals are much more against wars than conservatives generally, the +100% and -100% war weariness at the extreme sides is WAY to much, like WAY to much. It sends the message that all the conservatives want is war and all the liberals want to sit back and get destroyed. Europe is very socialist and yet, look at all the wars over there in the past several hundred years that had the peoples support. Honestly the war weariness slider should just be removed, the +10 free units and draft does a good job at showing how conservatives are more accepting of a war should it be necessary, I would also reccomend removing the + unit support cost for liberals.

What the heck is the +5 unhealthiness for conservatives and +4 health for liberals in here for? Because the fact that the liberal ideology is pro green, add like .3 health to forrest improvements. Conservatives should get more money on there mining and oil improvements, and thats it, whats the unhealth from? Corporations? Pfft...


Lol okay, just want to say if you found my comment to be rude, I seriously wasn't. Awesome idea Afforess, if I find anything else that I think should be changed or have more ideas I will be sure to post them here.

FYI in the USA conservatives repeatedly take a hatchet to education and non-DARPA science, how is that aiding science? while on the opposite side of the spectrum you have them pumping tons of funding into science and education, in fact that is a key part of Democrat ideology, additionally you have a high number of liberals coming out of college (because a close-minded perspective is debilitating in such a learning focused environment).

Also the Gold slider should favor the conservatives (pro-business), and the Culture slider should favor the Liberals *cough*Liberal Arts*cough*, while the Espionage slider should favor no one or perhaps lean slightly liberal (spying is easier with cutting edge gear). I concur that the war-weariness fact is WAY out of whack, but most of Europe wasn't Democratic even 100 years ago, heck Europe had Monarchs during WWII

I can imagine that this is a difficult mod to make without favoring certain ideologies but I believe that you have done a good job despite the favoritism towards socialism.

However, my game begins with Banditry selected as my placeholder for the ideology. Perhaps you should create a "None" ideology or something to replace it. btw, I am using your civics multi-pack.

 

[vincentz]

I concur that the war-weariness fact is WAY out of whack, but most of Europe wasn't Democratic even 100 years ago, heck Europe had Monarchs during WWII

A lot of contries in Europe has monarchs even today, but same as during WWII they are/were not in power.
Also its difficult to describe warweariness, cos there are two factors that is not differentiated in CIV4. Was it a declaration of war or did someone declare war upon them. IMO that is a big difference. I usually dont go slapping people (maybe because I'm a liberal) but if someone starts slapping me, then I surely will kick back

 

[Afforess]

therein lies the issue, waterboarding has yielded 0 extra information than could be obtained by means within the Geneva Conventions and some believe it has hardened the enemy against us leading to less info... also from observing history conservative and xenophobic nationalism walk hand in hand, so there should be a penalty by having a culture exceed say 10% of a city, each 5% above that yields an extra unhappiness

FYI in the USA conservatives repeatedly take a hatchet to education and non-DARPA science, how is that aiding science? while on the opposite side of the spectrum you have them pumping tons of funding into science and education, in fact that is a key part of Democrat ideology, additionally you have a high number of liberals coming out of college (because a close-minded perspective is debilitating in such a learning focused environment).

Also the Gold slider should favor the conservatives (pro-business), and the Culture slider should favor the Liberals *cough*Liberal Arts*cough*, while the Espionage slider should favor no one or perhaps lean slightly liberal (spying is easier with cutting edge gear). I concur that the war-weariness fact is WAY out of whack, but most of Europe wasn't Democratic even 100 years ago, heck Europe had Monarchs during WWII​

Please keep in mind that Ideologies are very hard to do. What I did with these civics was some over-generalization, purposefully. You know the political compass (I assume you do from your sig), I didn't just want to implement the compass into civ, because that would have meant 2 new civic trees instead of one. So, I tried to merge the two spectrums the best I could. I realize that Neoconservatives have caused some harm to education and Libertarians are a recent development. But I really can't dynamically show the two political spectrums well, It is more of a diagonal line, if you will, across the political spectrum, with Objectivism at 10,-10 and Socialism at -10,10. It isn't perfect, but we're playing a fictional game, with arbitrary (and sometimes silly) rules, so I have to compromise. I you really strongly feel my civics are poorly constructed, by all means, create your own. That's why we mod.

To summarize that paragraph, I basically said "I'm not changing anything."​