Ideology Preference

[Louis XXIV]

First, I do think that they should choose whichever ideology makes most sense in game (based on game goals and diplomatic ramifications). However, I do think they should be given an inherent preference where, all things being equal, they lean towards something.

Given that, which preference do you think they should have? I made some suggestions, but I left a lot blank for later. Also, feel free to disagree with me.

Spoiler My List :

America - Freedom
Aztecs
Arabs
Assyria
Austria
Babylon
Brazil - Freedom
Byzantines
Carthage
Celts
China - Order
Denmark
Egypt
England - Freedom
Ethiopia
France - Freedom
Germany - Autocracy
Greece
Huns - Autocracy
Inca
India - Freedom
Iroquois
Japan
Korea
Maya
Mongolia
Netherlands - Freedom
Ottomans
Persia
Poland - Order
Polynesia
Portugal
Rome
Russia - Order
Siam
Songhai
Spain
Sweden - Freedom
Zulu

 

[JSMCAG]

Hmmm - interesting idea...
The problem comes mainly with more ancient civilizations, though, so it'll be hard to have one for each.
I remember in Civilization IV, Montezuma's favorite civic was Police State, and I can see them going with Autocracy for warmongering civilizations like the Aztecs, the Mongols and the Zulus...

However, I'm much more inclined to think they will choose whatever is most beneficial to them in that particular game.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Yeah, I did a quick first run at all of them (so tentative and speculative that I'm not posting it) and it seemed that Autocracy would be a huge preference (even non-warmongers like Babylon clearly would prefer it). Ancient civs are certainly the hardest because Autocracy would be the only choice. However, I've also thought of using their modern counterpart as the example, much like how religions are chosen.

I agree they should choose benefit first, but it would fit well with flavors anyway (similar to Gandhi with nukes).

 

[mitsho]

These preferences should be about equally distributed, unlike Religion where just everyone choses Christianity... Then however, I'd say we don't know enough about the policies in the ideologies. They say that each tree has bonuses for every style of victory, but how will they be balanced? Do we cripple Civ A (Tall, Science) with giving it a priority that helps more Wide/Diplomatic? That'd be bad. In any case, I'd also want this preference not be binary, but dependent on how the game is going so far and that f.e. Germany isn't stuck with Autocracy all the time...

But let's trust in the developers. I'd say the biggest problem will be to fill the Order portion, since many warmongers like Shaka can get the Autocracy and a majority of the western biased civ choices prefer Freedom. Civs that can go Order imho are Arabs, Egypt, Carthage (many socialist republics in the Middle East), Inca (again, many socialist regimes toppled by the USA in South America), Korea (why not? ), Mongolia. But let's pick Poland, isn't it a bit controversial to make it chose Communism most of the times when its UA is named after how they abandoned Communism?

 

[Glassmage]

Autocracy: Aztec, Germany, Japan, Mongolia, Zulu, Assyria, Carthage, Celt, Denmark, Greece, Huns, Songhai

Freedom: America, Austria, Brazil, Egypt, England, Ethiopia, France, India, Korea, Netherlands, Poland, Polynesia, Portugal, Sweden

Order: Arabia, Byzantine, China, Inca, Iroquois, Maya, Ottoman, Persia, Rome, Russia, Siam, Babylon, Spain

 

[cybrxkhan]

I don't think they'd do this because some of the civs it's hard to say what would work. Germany, for instance - would Autocracy (Nazis), Freedom (West Germany and current Germany), or Order (old Prussian -> German Empire) work?

It also diminishes the sort of alt history value, too. While religions are something pretty long-established, these ideologies seem to represent very modern ideas that only appeared recently.

 

[Veras]

Autocracy: Aztec, Germany, Japan, Mongolia, Zulu, Assyria, Carthage, Celt, Denmark, Greece, Huns, Songhai

Freedom: America, Austria, Brazil, Egypt, England, Ethiopia, France, India, Korea, Netherlands, Poland, Polynesia, Portugal, Sweden

Order: Arabia, Byzantine, China, Inca, Iroquois, Maya, Ottoman, Persia, Rome, Russia, Siam, Babylon, Spain

Switch Greece with Portugal and I will mostly agree with your list. Remembering that during most of its reign and republic, Portugal was an authoritarian and conservative state.

 

[Evie94]

America: Freedom
Aztecs: Autocracy
Arabs: Autocracy
Assyria: Order
Austria: Freedom
Babylon: Order
Brazil: Freedom
Byzantines: Autocracy
Carthage: Autocracy
Celts: Order
China: Order
Denmark: Freedom
Egypt: Order
England: Freedom
Ethiopia: Freedom
France: Freedom
Germany: Autocracy
Greece: Autocracy
Huns: Autocracy
Inca: Order
India: Freedom
Iroquois: Freedom
Japan: Autocracy
Korea: Freedom
Maya: Order
Mongolia: Order
Netherlands: Freedom
Ottomans: Order
Persia: Autocracy
Poland: Order
Polynesia: Freedom
Portugal: Freedom
Rome: Order
Russia: Order
Siam: Order
Songhai: Autocracy
Spain: Freedom
Sweden: Freedom
Zulu: Autocracy

 

[Leugi]

Yes, Inca should definitely be Order, they had an interesting kind of pre-socialism when they existed.

 

[Veras]

Spain and Portugal must go for Autocracy for their conservative periods of monarchy and long fascist period of republic. Ethiopia maybe should stand with Order, Freedom just doesn't seems right to me with their History. While Greece is mostly warmonger in Civ V, its History as a whole makes Freedom the best choice. Poland should stay with Freedom too, they've always been tolerant and kinda democratic in comparison with the rest of Europe in their periods of independence (the communist era was a soviet imposition upon polish society).

 

[Nujabes]

Hopefully the civs choose ideologies somewhat dynamically in response to their needs as you said, rather than like religions. Beyond that, I don't much care

 

[Louis XXIV]

I strongly expect Poland to be Order, though. In fact, I think that's one reason they were chosen. They want to represent the ideological struggles of the 20th Century and Poland would have been in the Communist bloc.

 

[Dragonflow]

There's some obvious and more tricky ones.
Obvious ones would be:
Freedom: America, England, Brazil, France, Sweden, Greece, Netherlands and India
Autocracy: Huns, Mongolia, Germany, Japan, Rome, Byzantium, Arabia, Spain and Ottomans
Order: Russia, China, Poland and Ethiopia

 

[Nujabes]

Why is Ethiopia order?

 

[Dragonflow]

Because it doesn't really fit into freedom or autocracy and the ideology system is based on the Cold War, during which Ethiopia was in the communist block from 1974 onwards.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I thought Ethiopia was more of a benevolent (well, kind of) autocracy.

 

[Dragonflow]

The thing is it's a lot easier to find civs for either Freedom or Autocracy. There aren't that many civs that were socialist at some point in the game right now.
If there's really going to be favoured ideologies I feel that Order will have very few civs attached to it.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I don't think they'd do this because some of the civs it's hard to say what would work. Germany, for instance - would Autocracy (Nazis), Freedom (West Germany and current Germany), or Order (old Prussian -> German Empire) work?

It also diminishes the sort of alt history value, too. While religions are something pretty long-established, these ideologies seem to represent very modern ideas that only appeared recently.

Just go ahead and make Germany always fascist. They are already ruined (I really don't like the all out militaristic depiction of Germany in Civ 5).
Although, since we know that some civs have new abilities and Shaka's land unit maintenance discount overlaps with Germany's old ability there's a chance BNW might change that. Bismarck himself was a sneaky enough diplomat to justify some world congressy bonus, we've had quite a lot of great artists and our modern economy is extremely export oriented.

But back on topic: You shouldn't read the ideologies just as Democracy/Communism/Fascism, but see them for the abstract concepts they represent (and maybe rename Autocracy to militarism). Order would fit any civ with collectivist tendencies regardless of their cultural compatibility with socialist ideology. From this perspective the traditional Indian caste system could be a reason to associate India with Order although it is really anathema to socialist ideals of equality, and as you was pointed out, Germany could embody any ideology depending on the time period (and let's not forget the Weimar Republic which was in some ways too democratic for it's own good).
I think the easiest ones to shoehorn into one ideology are America ( F R E E D O M !!! ), China (Order) and most others are pretty difficult to pin down. Japan shares China's penchant for collectivism but was historically much more militaristic and could go either Order or Autocracy. Roman policial culture was very anti-monarchist, but the Romans were at the same time very militaristic and in my opinion any civ that was able to keep a large empire for centuries held order in high regard.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Germany almost certainly has to be Autocracy because the ideology in the game is basically based on the Nazi party.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

I think the easiest ones to shoehorn into one ideology are America ( F R E E D O M !!! ), China (Order) and most others are pretty difficult to pin down. Japan shares China's penchant for collectivism but was historically much more militaristic and could go either Order or Autocracy. Roman policial culture was very anti-monarchist, but the Romans were at the same time very militaristic and in my opinion any civ that was able to keep a large empire for centuries held order in high regard.

It would be not appropriate to make USA prefer Autocracy, but they are in some way militaristic too. In the way you explain autocracy it could fit to USA too... Or am i wrong?