If convicted, the Norwegian terrorist might go to the world's most humane prison

[Gogf]

Photos of the prison in question

RedRalph recently posted a similar thread, but I would like for this to be a more focused discussion.

Some questions to consider:

- What is the purpose of a prison?
- Should retributive justice exist for any reason other than deterrence?
- If rehabilitation is actually the goal of our criminal justice system, then where is the line? Is there anything "too nice" for criminals? For example, if we knew the only way to rehabilitate serial killers was to indulge them with ice cream, prostitutes, and apple juice, should we do that?
- Are some people beyond rehabilitation? Why do you think so?

Special thread rule: no mention of Obama, please. This is an Obama-free zone.

 

[civver_764]

- What is the purpose of a prison?

To protect society.

- Should retributive justice exist for any reason other than deterrence?

Yes.

- If rehabilitation is actually the goal of our criminal justice system, then where is the line? Is there anything "too nice" for criminals? For example, if we knew the only way to rehabilitate serial killers was to indulge them with ice cream, prostitutes, and apple juice, should we do that?

It's a matter of being "too nice" or not, it's a matter of doing what works.

That said, yeah there needs to be a level of deterrence.

- Are some people beyond rehabilitation? Why do you think so?

I dunno, maybe. Are random people on the internet qualified to make that judgment? Absolutely not.

 

[Gogf]

To protect society.

Please provide a little more content than this - most people would agree that the ideal purpose of a prison is something along the lines of protecting society. Is the purpose to keep dangerous people away from society? To make the dangerous people inside less dangerous? To scare dangerous people outside from acting in ways we don't like? To exact retribution on people we don't like? All or some of the previous?

Yes.

What are they? Why?

It's a matter of being "too nice" or not, it's a matter of doing what works.

What works in accomplish what goal, exactly? (Please say something with more content than "protecting society".)

I dunno, maybe. Are random people on the internet qualified to make that judgment? Absolutely not.

People here are qualified to make very few judgments, and yet they continue to do so.

 

[Labtec600]

Wow - hope the families that had their children taken from them enjoy knowing this is the resort he will be living.

Something like this is great for lower offenders - but for the massacre this man committed?

 

[civver_764]

Please provide a little more content than this - most people would agree that the ideal purpose of a prison is something along the lines of protecting society. Is the purpose to keep dangerous people away from society? To make dangerous people less dangerous? To scare dangerous people from acting in ways we don't like? To exact retribution on people we don't like? All or some of the previous?

It's to detain dangerous people and hopefully to make them better and less dangerous in the process.

What are they? Why?

Rehabilitation mainly.

What works in accomplish what goal, exactly? (Please say something with more content than "protecting society".)

I'm not going to pretend I know a lot about prison psychology. The goal would be to reform them in a certain period of time.

I don't think you can let them be too comfortable because there does have to be some deterrence. However I think the best way to fight crime is simply to make society better as a whole.

 

[Cutlass]

The purpose of prisons is to keep the public safe by keeping dangerous people away from them, and rehabilitation. It isn't really retribution. Though in some cases that's what it amounts to. One of the reasons the American prison system tends to be not all that effective is too much focus on retribution over rehabilitation.

The goal, ultimately, is to discourage crime and prevent recidivism. For much of the population, they'll never commit any serious crime, so deterrence is sufficient. But for many who have been convicted, American prisons and the system do more to encourage recidivism than they do to discourage it.

In a country like Norway, when really ugly crimes are fairly rare, a particularly nasty prison system is no more warranted than an over aggressive police presence is.

So people cannot be rehabilitated. Some people don't deserve to be. But that has to be decided on a case by case basis, and not categories. And there it will never be perfect.

But if rehabilitation is the actual goal, then the prisons have to be more than just cells. They may not have to be Club Fed, but they can't be Alcatraz.

 

[NiRv4n4]

Wow, I bet a lot of poor folks would be willing to declare themselves accomplices to get in here.

Joking aside, saying that he should live in some hellhole, Alcatraz style prison is motivated by revenge. So long as this prison is hard to escape from, I'm glad the conditions are good. Maybe he'll see that Norway as it currently is is not entirely detestable.

The purpose of prisons is to keep the public safe by keeping dangerous people away from them, and rehabilitation. It isn't really retribution. Though in some cases that's what it amounts to. One of the reasons the American prison system tends to be not all that effective is too much focus on retribution over rehabilitation.

The goal, ultimately, is to discourage crime and prevent recidivism. For much of the population, they'll never commit any serious crime, so deterrence is sufficient. But for many who have been convicted, American prisons and the system do more to encourage recidivism than they do to discourage it.

In a country like Norway, when really ugly crimes are fairly rare, a particularly nasty prison system is no more warranted than an over aggressive police presence is.

So people cannot be rehabilitated. Some people don't deserve to be. But that has to be decided on a case by case basis, and not categories. And there it will never be perfect.

But if rehabilitation is the actual goal, then the prisons have to be more than just cells. They may not have to be Club Fed, but they can't be Alcatraz.

Dude... Wish I wasn't so inept at stating my opinion, glad to know someone could do it for me, haha.

 

[Labtec600]

One of the reasons the American prison system tends to be not all that effective is too much focus on retribution over rehabilitation. .

Thats because the system did a 180 turn after the 70's where it was all about rehabilitation and people were being let go that shouldnt have.

Prison should be both - retribution and rehabilitation. Cases like this however, the amount of retribution he should serve is going to be way longer than his life span.

 

[civver_764]

What purpose does retribution serve by itself?

 

[Save_Ferris]

A prison? Hell, some people would want to live there!

 

[GoodGame]

Is there no death penalty for Treason in Europe? I'd think he'd be guilty of that at least (though in all fairness, I believe he hasn't officially been convicted, despite confessions).

 

[NiRv4n4]

What purpose does retribution serve by itself?

None, other than to appease to people who are upset and angry at this man over this. Their emotions, while justified, should not lay the basis for a legal judgement.

 

[Rashiminos]

- Are some people beyond rehabilitation? Why do you think so?

Yes, and the reason involves psychopathy. These people fundamentally (arguably genetic) lack for empathy, and therefore lack the restraint that rationally-disturbed thinking must overcome to commit various heinous acts against others. It's not hard when a mind equates people with livestock for all intents and purposes.

Edit: They will also favor lying about themselves as far as rehabilitation is concerned.

 

[Labtec600]

What purpose does retribution serve by itself?

Justice for the families involved?

 

[Abegweit]

The purpose of a prison is to provide jobs for prison guards (as well as the rest of the creatures paid by the state injustice system). The idea that it is rehabilitative is quite frankly delusional. I have no clue how anyone could believe this. If the objective is punitive, then there are other, far cheaper and far more humane, ways to achieve this goal.

The proper purpose of a justice system is to make the aggressor provide restitution to the victim. Of course, the victim is universally ignored. How could it be otherwise when the true purpose of the system is to enable one group of third parties (e.g. neither the aggressor nor the victim but rather those with political connections) to steal from another group of third parties (e.g. the rest of us).

 

[NiRv4n4]

The purpose of a prison is to provide jobs for prison guards (as well as the rest of the creatures paid by the state injustice system). The idea that it is rehabilitative is quite frankly delusional. I have no clue how anyone could believe this. If the objective is punitive, then there are other, far cheaper and far more humane, ways to achieve this goal.

The proper purpose of a justice system is to make the aggressor provide restitution to the victim. Of course, the victim is universally ignored. How could it be otherwise when the true purpose of the system is to enable one group of third parties (e.g. neither the aggressor nor the victim but rather those with political connections) to steal from another group of third parties (e.g. the rest of us).

Making the perpetrator eat slop for food and sleep on a hard, flea infested bed isn't giving anything back the victim, aside from a, dare I say, sadistic sense of "justice". If life in prison without parole is not the sentence, then prison should prepare the criminal for their eventual return to society. I'm a generally conservative/libertarian American and this seems the right thing to do.

 

[Abegweit]

Justice for the families involved?

No. It absolutely does not. And, unsurprisingly, the prosecutors don't give a damn for the victims. The purpose of prosecution is grandstanding - to advance the political careers of demagogues like Rudolph Gulliani, Janet Reno, Eliot Spitzer and a host of others. The victims count for nothing. In fact, in many cases, the prosecutions are made against the victims' express wishes and sometimes by forcing the victims to act as witnesses against their own will.

Consider a recent case in New York City where a 16-year woman was dragged through the courts for refusing to identify her assailant in a recent assault. The state-assigned dragger took her down to the basement and raped her. She, as a mere mundane, got a year in prison for refusing to 'fess up. Perhaps she didn't even know. The dragger who raped her got a suspended sentence.

No. The system is not about justice for victims.

Moderator Action: As this is a RD thread, please stick to the topic, the American justice system isn't the topic, neither is american politics

 

[Arwon]

Why does everyone want to change Norway's criminal justice system from the outside, just because of one psychopath?

 

[Gogf]

It's to detain dangerous people and hopefully to make them better and less dangerous in the process.

Does detaining people usually make them better?

Rehabilitation mainly.

Most people think that rehabilitation and retributive justice are at odds. Do you?

I'm not going to pretend I know a lot about prison psychology. The goal would be to reform them in a certain period of time.

What does "reform them" mean?

 

[Gogf]

Some people don't deserve to be [rehabilitated].

This is the interesting part of your post. What does it mean for someone not to "deserve" to be rehabilitated? How do we determine this sort of dessert? Can you give some examples of people who both do and do not deserve to be rehabilitated? What makes these two groups qualitatively different?