JohnRM
Don't make me destroy you
Well, I am not an athiest persay, but I do not identify myself as Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc. etc. etc. However, if information was revealed to be the truth, I would accept it as such and carry on.
cgannon64 said:Yes, there could be an independent standard of good - but what would that be? And would it have existed prior to God? Wouldn't it be superior to God, since he has to align himself with it?
No, I cannot prove there is no such planet. Therefore, I will not claim that "the absolute truth is that such a planet cannot exist." It absolutely can exist, it just doesn't seem likely.Stapel said:It's impossible to prove the non-existance of something.Keirador said:The absolute truth is that god cannot exist? Laughable. That is like saying the absolute truth is that ghosts cannot exist. No one actually knows that. There is simply no evidence of that assertion. The best you can do is prove that god is completely unnecessary, and completey unsupported by evidence. That is not logically equivalent to saying that the existence of God is impossible. You would have to prove that the existence of god is mutually exclusive to something we do know exists, which has never been done.
Can you prove there is no planet with a billion nude hotties screaming for sex with me and Civilization XXXVII already in the shops for $1.00?
As stated in the OP, it's a direct take-off of CurtSibling's thread, titled "If the truth about your god was revealed. . ."MaisseArsouye said:There's a bias in the title
Regarding poll options, it means the truth is atheism is wrong. You don't set it as a possibility but as a fact. So I don't answer the poll. Rename it by "what if atheism was proved wrong" and I would vote.
Actually this makes me think of another way of putting things, if we rephrase it the other way round:frekk said:If you saw a leprechaun, would you believe in little people?
Because religion and belief in God are not the same thing. Even if one religion got it "most right" (which is a rather big assumption - even if a God exists, I doubt any of the religions are correct at all on what they say), that still means they got it wrong in some areas!cgannon64 said:I'm amazed that most of the athiests here are unwilling, once admitting that they would follow God if they knew he existed, to choose a religion. If God exists, and has characteristics that you know, why wouldn't you align yourself with the religion that got it most right?
You are assuming that this God is all knowing, all intelligent, all loving to us, and that all moral problems have a unique objective answer.cgannon64 said:Can't you see that, if God exists, the moral code you have "worked out for yourself" is either his moral code, or it is crap?
cgannon64 said:When someone is good, they are following God whether they understand it or not. It is the last step of understanding this, and embracing God, that is necessary to be truly good.
But you must accept that definition of "good" if, for the sake of argument, you are assuming that God exists and he is all-good.
Keirador said:No, I cannot prove there is no such planet. Therefore, I will not claim that "the absolute truth is that such a planet cannot exist." It absolutely can exist, it just doesn't seem likely.
If I couldn't study the phenomenon, why should I accept it asap? That would require, the phenomenon happened several times, so I had time to examine it.Keirador said:Obviously a take-off of Curt's thread, but not retaliatory or anything like that, I (unlike most Christians, apparently) found Curt's question interesting. "What would you do if confronted with undeniable proof that your basic beliefs are wrong?" Only I'm applying it to atheists. If you were confronted with a phenomenon that could only be explained by the existence of God or your own insanity (being visited and spoken to by angels, speaking with a burning bush, miraculous healing, etc.), what would you do? Convert (and by convert, I mean recognize and believe in the existence of a higher power, not necessarily "go to church")? Check yourself into a loony bin? Keep in mind that you have never felt saner, and psychiatrists can't find any actual reason you should be committed. . .
Then you can align yourself with the religion that got it most right, and try to correct it where it went wrong.mdwh said:Because religion and belief in God are not the same thing. Even if one religion got it "most right" (which is a rather big assumption - even if a God exists, I doubt any of the religions are correct at all on what they say), that still means they got it wrong in some areas!
Actually, God has to care about us. Why? God created us, which is obviously an act of caring and concern. God, in a sense "creates us eternally", because he is unchanging, and so any idea which he holds when we were first created he must hold for all eternity. Thus, God loves us and wants us to exist, and he does this forever. If he stopped, he would not be eternal; if he did not care for us, we wouldn't exist. But, this is a side-note.If the first three are true (which is an assumption about God - eg, he might not give a damn about us),
Actually, if you had all the facts - meaning omnipotence and a full understanding of morality - the answer would be clear. It's just that no human can ever fully understand a situation and all its repercussions.Is it right to kill ten people to save a different group of one hundred people? Even if you have all the facts, it isn't clear what the answer is.
Perhaps not the only, but it would make you the being in the best position to make judgments about the way to behave.Even if there is a God, it doesn't mean that any other moral code is "crap" - being creator of something doesn't make you the only being in a position to make judgements about the best way to behave
No that's pride you're thinking of.Stapel said:Following something you don't understand is the root of evil.
The Old Testament is more filled with crap than the New, because the Old Testament was written by a people with a rather skewed view of God - that he was their personal servant and supportive of all their actions, really.And trust me, there is not just one or two lines popular with atheists. The whole book is filled with filth, dirt and crap. As a matter of fact, the 4 gospels are the few exceptions, together with some great short stories form OT.
I guess it depends on what the situation was. If people who didn't worship and follow a million rules got tortured for hell once we died, then I guess I would reluctantly do this. If it turned out that this God said people should say, wear red hats, then I wouldn't necessarily do so, if I couldn't see a good reason for it. Also I wouldn't see a reason to worship such a God (unless not doing so would make him angry, and it'd mean I get sent to hell or whatever).cgannon64 said:Then you can align yourself with the religion that got it most right, and try to correct it where it went wrong.
Just because the act of creation is a "caring act", it does not follow that therefore this God was always acts in our best interest. I assure you when I play "God" with my civilization in Civilization, I don't always act in their best interests Nor do scientists performing experiments on animals tend to act in the best interests for those animals. For all we know, we could be some experiment of some superintelligent being, who does not care about us at all, or has other interests above us.Actually, God has to care about us. Why? God created us, which is obviously an act of caring and concern.
No - even if you fully understand all the consequences, including seeing into the future, it is still a matter of opinion of whether actively killing one person is right, if it saves two people.Actually, if you had all the facts - meaning omnipotence and a full understanding of morality - the answer would be clear. It's just that no human can ever fully understand a situation and all its repercussions.
*If* all these things I have said are true. The problem is that even if it is proven that there is a God, it's a lot harder to prove these other things. How could we know that God knows everything, including the future? How could we know he always has our best interests at heart?Perhaps not the only, but it would make you the being in the best position to make judgments about the way to behave.
cgannon64 said:Then you can align yourself with the religion that got it most right, and try to correct it where it went wrong.
Actually, God has to care about us. Why? God created us, which is obviously an act of caring and concern. God, in a sense "creates us eternally", because he is unchanging, and so any idea which he holds when we were first created he must hold for all eternity. Thus, God loves us and wants us to exist, and he does this forever. If he stopped, he would not be eternal; if he did not care for us, we wouldn't exist. But, this is a side-note.
Actually, if you had all the facts - meaning omnipotence and a full understanding of morality - the answer would be clear. It's just that no human can ever fully understand a situation and all its repercussions.
Perhaps not the only, but it would make you the being in the best position to make judgments about the way to behave.
No that's pride you're thinking of.
The Old Testament is more filled with crap than the New, because the Old Testament was written by a people with a rather skewed view of God - that he was their personal servant and supportive of all their actions, really.
I was assuming that he had a revelation from God and knew the truth about him.Shadylookin said:what makes you so sure any of them is remotely correct?
I can't have theories?not necessarily maybe he created us to torment us? I don't really know why you feel you can speak for any deities since you've never communicated directly with any of them.
Another problem for another day.Besides if god is unchanging and had this idea of me since the begining of time when he started it where does he get off complaining about my actions?
Since when have I defended all of the Old Testament?It is generally considered immoral in western society to kill off social minorities(homosexuals, people of different faiths, etc.) yet in the bible done accepts and embraces these actions. So god really isn't dictating morality on earth
Firstly, God didn't create perfection, nor did he intend to. And secondly, if there is one being who can be proud without being sinful, it is God.I agree god was way to proud thinking he could create perfection
Not really.the new testimate is in full support of the old
cgannon64 said:I was assuming that he had a revelation from God and knew the truth about him.
I can't have theories?
Another problem for another day.
Since when have I defended all of the Old Testament?
Firstly, God didn't create perfection, nor did he intend to. And secondly, if there is one being who can be proud without being sinful, it is God.
Not really.