If we go to war, Are you going to enlist?

by niceguy:

the U.S. is one of the only nations (I hesitate to say only, though I really want to) that has done anything more than talk about serving the global community.

Lest I give a false impression, there are other nations that I know of which have participated in many humanitarian missions with America, at least to some degree. But as the sole superpower, America has a greater responsibility (in practical terms) than other nations, and so I expect to see America busting butt to get things done.

In Somalia, Germany was there, along with Britain, The Netherlands, and I think Belgium and Italy.

In the Central African Wars, Britian was on the ground with us in Uganda, Zaire, and Rwanda. Quite likely Germany was there. France, as usual in Central Africa, was supplying arms and causing problems by inciting insurrection in the region.

In Bosnia, misguided as the "Clintonizing" of that region was... Britian, Germany, France, Belguim, The Netherlands, Norway, Italy, Iceland, and Spain were all present to some degree, and I actually had several Germans and French in my operations cell, and a German was our #2 division officer during the airlift operations. An Italian was the #2 overall ATAF commander. Each day, the operations building would have lots of different languages being spoken, though English was the common language that everyone had to know. I don't really consider the overall effort in Bosnia a "humanitarian" effort, as "we" let too many people get butchered, in my humble opinion.

In general, most European allies will allow us to use their airspace, even when they don't directly participate in humanitarian missions. The one real pond-scum of nations in Europe, in terms of getting in the way, is Switzerland. They would not let us even air-evac civilians dying of such ailments as heart attacks... instead, we must generally fly over France (typically Lyon and Dijon, to the west of the cold-hearted Swiss) when returning from Africa or the mid east.

I believe Australia helped with some sealift in during the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo (Philippines).

In the rest of the world, it is pretty much the US that responds to the world's emergencies, unless a regional power has some interest in helping out.

"U-Call, We Haul"

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Starlifter, I've flown with some of your compatriots before in and out of Tuzla and Skopje. A bumpy ride, but I always got there safely. Thanks (indirectly)!

I was gonna post that Canadian writers' words, but you beat me to it.

I remember vaguely about the CIS states, but not the details... Just another reminder of American generosity. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Bosnia is somewhat of a dilemma, as we can't afford to leave, but can scarcely afford to stay.

Same with Kosovo, doubled over.

But I am pretty sure that this won't be a "occupation" operation. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
 
posted September 18, 2001 03:54 PM

Starlifter, I've flown with some of your compatriots before in and out of Tuzla and Skopje. A bumpy ride, but I always got there safely. Thanks (indirectly)!

What year(s) and months did you fly in/out? And were you on a 4-engine jet, big and green, with uncomfortable red seats along the long axis of the fuselage? Even if I didn't carry you in my plane personally, I also spent a lot of time as an Airlift Director over there, and may well have approved your flight. If so, I had two twenty-ish German enlisted that were part of my ops cell to do the job ;) .

EDIT: Fix the quote boundaries damaged when the older posts (like this one) were transferred to the new vBBS.
 
Hey Starlifter...Did you participate in Operation Winged Crusader in Oct '92 or Team Spirit "93?
 
What really needs to happen, and I guess it should be brought up in Staff, is to keep a thread on top, or readily available, that keeps track of people serving.
 
Flew into Skopje (UN mission) in Dec. '96 in a C-130.

Flew out in the same type of aircraft in Apr. '97.

Flew out of Tuzla in Jul '97 in C-130 to Germany.

Flew back same month (Watched the guy in front of me puke into his Kevlar... Those who have been on a C-130 in the jump seats know how pleasant that is <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ) Pilot nearly blew my eardrums out on his descent.

Flew out again on a Galaxy in Sep '97, was probably the worst flight of my life... It was freezing in the back of that plane!!!

Flew into Skopje again in Nov 99. Civvie airliner this time. Returned on the same type of craft eight months later.

I think I only went to Tuzla a few times (I was at Camp MUDgovern) when I was down there, but we always joked that it was the best PT (right arm variety) due to all of the brass that would be walking down the PX road.
 
by gjts00, posted September 19, 2001 01:21 AM <br />Hey Starlifter...Did you participate in Operation Winged Crusader in Oct '92 or Team Spirit "93?

Winged Crusader, no, but Team Spirit, yes <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> . I'm not 100% sure about 1993, though. I was airland, not airdrop, BTW. I was out of Norton in early '93, and McGuire beginning in late '93 (remember the 2nd round of closures, LOL?).

EDIT: Fix the quote boundaries damaged when the older posts (like this one) were transferred to the new vBBS.
 
Flatlander Fox, posted September 19, 2001 02:18 AM

Flew into Skopje (UN mission) in Dec. '96 in a C-130.

Flew out in the same type of aircraft in Apr. '97.

Flew out of Tuzla in Jul '97 in C-130 to Germany.

Flew back same month (Watched the guy in front of me puke into his Kevlar... Those who have been on a C-130 in the jump seats know how pleasant that is ) Pilot nearly blew my eardrums out on his descent.

Flew out again on a Galaxy in Sep '97, was probably the worst flight of my life... It was freezing in the back of that plane!!!

Flew into Skopje again in Nov 99. Civvie airliner this time. Returned on the same type of craft eight months later.

Well, we didn't even cross paths indirectly then. I flew in Bosnia (as a pilot) for the last time in early '96, but later flew as an American observer with some Norwegians in the summer and fall of '96. I was Airlift Director (a ground job) from June to October of '96, and approved (or disapproved, LOL) all the non-fighter flights in Bosnia during that period. I left in October of '96.

The seats on my C-141 were no more comforable than on the C-130s you flew on.

The C-5 location you flew in is pretty safe, BTW. Rear-facing seats are best, and probably airliner seats should be arranged like that too. The Loadmaster should have been able to have the pilots turn up the heat, unless someting was broken (and on the C-5 soething often is :lol: ). After all, the bleed air is only about 800 degrees C... and that should warm things up, hehe...

I flew into Skopje with the Norwegians, but never in my aircraft.

Out of respect for the "team", I won't comment on the incident with the pilot trainee in the C-130 that almost blew out your eardrums, haha.

So nope, we didn't cross paths... but we breathed some of the same air ;) .


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Yeah, we had some kind words for that "trainee" as we got off that plane <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> .

When I would visit Guardian Base, we would sit in tower 7 and watch the Norwegian female soldiers nude sunbathe. It was my firm belief that tower 7 was the best guarded place in Bosnia. <img src="icon12.gif" border="0">

I had alot of friends go down with IFOR, but most of them were over at Comanche. They came home, and three months later went back again. Most of those guys decided to get out shortly after that. It was a morale killer for them.

A Bosnia joke: What do you get when you have 10 Bosnian men standing on a corner.

Answer: A full set of teeth <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> !!!

Hope nobody is too offended!!!
 
QUOTE:

"I hope the people signing up know what they're getting into. You may realize some day on some blood soaked mountain in Afghanistan that you made a very very bad descision. If the enemy doesn't kill you, you'll proably discover that your OWN government has screwed you over somehow. They usually do. Whether it's toxic defoliage or some other mysterious illness... you'll be just a pawn to serve their political agendas. George Bush keeps using the word "WE" - Where's HE going to be? He won't be fighting by your side thats for sure. Politicians just sign the papers and make some moving speeches and off you go to your deaths."

QUOTE OFF.

I agree. Though I am not American, I advise not to watch Rambo, but Apocalypse, Now, instead. War is never a ballet, never anything nice, there is nothing manly or honorable to it.

You are killing people (most likely those who have nothing to do with it, like you) until you are killed. Or wounded maybe for life. Or after its all over you go home wounded in your soul for your life.

Even though 'Desert Storm' was like a soap opera, people were killed on BOTH side and there were injuries from chemical weapons.

And think about something. The terrorists on the plane were pretty well educated people, spoke English, were reasonably well-off. They threw their life away on a cause that they thought is worthwhile. What would make you do that? Think about it. THEN you might get an idea how desperate they might have been, how much they did not see any way out.

Now flame ON, feel free to flame to my email address as well... <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
 
George Bush keeps using the word "WE" - Where's HE going to be?

Sounds like you're not going to be on the mountain, either ;) . That's OK, because others will step up and defend your (and your family's) right to peace and freedom, too. You might have the courtesy to thank those that defend your basic rights, though. You might even seek out and thank a veteran's family.

If the prior President had even discharged his basic duties with honor, we would likely have confronted and overcome these problems several years ago when it would have been much, much easier... make no mistake and don't be led astray by he who speaketh with forked tounge (AKA Clinton)... we had several excellent chances to rid the world of both bin Laden and Saddam.

The lesson is that the yellow badge of cowardice and a callous disregard of one's nation will seed a seething garden that, in future days, when harvest comes, must bear the bitter fruits.

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Even though 'Desert Storm' was like a soap opera, people were killed on BOTH side and there were injuries from chemical weapons.

And ummm... refresh my memory... where exactly were you in the Persian Gulf War? Are you using or consuming any energy, driving a car, flying in a plane, riding in a train, eating food shipped to the market or restaurant?

And would you like to explain to hundreds of families of dead servicemen (and women) that the whole thing was a soap opera, presuably for your amusement?

And on what basis do you presume to comment about the use of chemical weapons? You need not have been there, but you should cite your source if you weren't. Many would be interested.

EDIT: Fix the quote boundaries damaged when the older posts (like this one) were transferred to the new vBBS.
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"make no mistake and don't be led astray by he who speaketh with forked tounge (AKA Clinton)... we had several excellent chances to rid the world of both bin Laden and Saddam."

Make no mistake--I'm no Clinton fan either--but George Sr. ALSO had a chance to get rid of Saddam, the FIRST time, in the Gulf War. But he didn't, saying something about it being wrong to kill national leaders or something.... Nor would he even let the Iraqi people (Shi'ites, Kurds, other dissidents) do it for him, when Saddam was most vulnerable after the airstrikes were over....

Let's hope the son has the balls to do what the father balked at....

[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: allan ]</p>
 
Originally posted by starlifter:<br />[QB]
<br />...<br />Even though 'Desert Storm' was like a soap opera, people were killed on BOTH side and there were injuries from chemical weapons.<br />...<br />
I meant 'soap opera' compared to what was expected or compared to VietNam or WWII. I think there is no doubt that much heavier losses were expected.

And ummm... refresh my memory... where exactly were you in the Persian Gulf War? Are you using or consuming any energy, driving a car, flying in a plane, riding in a train, eating food shipped to the market or restaurant?

I believe that you are trying to make the point of the Allies were preserving the oil and other resources for the rest of the world. I wouldn't want to get into this. - soap opera was was porbably a bad expression to use.

And would you like to explain to hundreds of families of dead servicemen (and women) that the whole thing was a soap opera, presuably for your amusement?

What I meant (and I believe that was in my post <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ) that war is not that fun thing that some people on this thread think. Btw Hungary (where I live) is just north of the former Yugoslavia, real war was really closer to us than New York to DC for example.

And on what basis do you presume to comment about the use of chemical weapons? You need not have been there, but you should cite your source if you weren't. Many would be interested.

I remember British servicemen getting compensation for some chemical weapons related stuff. Of course I cant cite an exact source, but It was quite well known in electronic media.

But... what about the rest what I have written? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
 
Make no mistake--I'm no Clinton fan either--but George Sr. ALSO had a chance to get rid of Saddam, the FIRST time, in the Gulf War. But he didn't, saying something about it being wrong to kill national leaders or something.... Nor would he even let the Iraqi people (Shi'ites, Kurds, other dissidents) do it for him, when Saddam was most vulnerable after the airstrikes were over....

Let's hope the son has the balls to do what the father balked at....

I completely understand that general feeling... a lot of people had it. And our gut told many of us one thing ("Let's roll in to Baghdad and wipe them out")... yet our brain and honor told us another (We had a very specific international agreement, and America was not acting unilaterally!).

The irony is that if we had acted unilaterally (and thus been freed to do whatever America wanted to do), the war would have been far far more difficult and expensive from the outset, and would have alienated many moderate nations around the world to this day! IMHO, it was one of Bush Sr.'s most difficult personal decisions.

Bush and all of us were disappointed that we didn't "happen" to kill Saddam in the natural course of the Gulf War. The combination of an honorable man (Bush Sr.) and a nation of rules and honor (America) made it impossible to follow the gut instinct. Else a small unit would have been inserted and removed not only Saddam, but his inner circle.

But yes, America acted with integrity and honor, and did what it agreed to, and kept it's word to the coalition. America kept it's word when so many international leaders were publicly sure that America was not capable of eliminating "mission creep"... and equally sure that America would betray the Coalition and continue the ground war into Baghdad. But they were wrong. And Bush Sr. disproved the adage that "absolute power corrupts absolutely"... In Jan-Apr 1991, America had absolute power in Iraq... indeed, in the Middle East. Yet America kept its word, and acted with honor and restraint. The irony was that the vanquished was in office longer than the victor.

A lasting effect of America keeping it's word in the Gulf War is that many foreign national leaders around the world know the character and high integrity of the people around Bush Jr., and there is an implicit trust that never existed with most members of the marginally competent and generally untrustworthy (from a foreign perspective) Clinton Administration.

So in the long run, the success of the Gulf war coalition, and the return of honorable people into America's Department of State, has laid the groundwork for an alliance or coalition in the coming conflict.

BTW, if Bush had been in office for another 4 years, several things later changed in the Middle East that would have allowed us to return and, in essence, finish the job. It is of course just speculation at this point, but my bet is Bush Sr. would have taken the opportunity to relieve Saddam of a nation ;) .

If you recall, one of the engraved invitations was Saddam's attempt to Assassinate George Herbert Walker Bush... Clinton threw a few cruise missiles in and said "shame on you Saddam". Remember, America is not honor (or agreement) bound never to invade Iraq... that was a temporary consequence of the Gulf War Coalition, and we can now invade at any time -- albeit with certain international objections.

Let me point out another thing. Many nations, such as France, have not kept up the Embargo. Leaks in the Embargo are largely what props Saddam up year after year.

In basic terms, within two years of the end of the Gulf War in April of 1991, some nations began helping Iraq privately. When the Clinton Administration took over, it was open season, and the Coalition began to disintegrate. Warren Christopher was a lauging stock overseas, especially among national leaders. I was there... I watched it... I won't name nations, but I saw leaders shake this hand, then snicker or grin when he moved to the next person. Part of my job was State Department and Presidential support, and was able to bear witness to this stuff.

That said, Warren Christopher was not the best representative, and by far not the best choice of Secretary of State, for America. But for those that remember 1993, the Clinton Administration did very little right, especially selecting the caliber of people that acted in it's behalf. I'm not hacking on Christopher in particular... the word is "incompetent" for thousands of no-name officials, many of who I had the displeasure of meeting and working with.

So we missed many opportunities to legitimately "get" Saddam with Honor throughout the 1990s. It now seems we have another legit opportunity to nail him, and this time do more that launch a few Cruise Missiles.

Nor would he even let the Iraqi people (Shi'ites, Kurds, other dissidents) do it for him, when Saddam was most vulnerable after the airstrikes were over

I flew many humanitarian missions in support of the Kurds and others in Iraq. If the dissidents had been able to overthrow Saddam in an internal revolution, we would have been in in a heartbeat to shore them up. We were ready, and hoping. Literally. Now that said, I do have one big problem with one of Bush Sr's actions that is a "real" issue no matter how you slice it. Bush Sr. delegated the surrender details to Colin Powell and Norman Swartzkopf. Literally at the surrender table, an Iraqi aide (no, I was not at that event myself :cry: ) asked Swartzkopf for permission to fly helicopters in the No Fly zone. It was granted, with the explicit agreement that it was for peaceful purposes because of the damaged Iraqi infrastructure. What actually happened was that many helicopters were armed, and Saddam used them to suppress (kill) his own people in many areas. Even though they technically had "permission" to fly the choppers, we should have clamped down and stopped all Iraqi flights in the no-fly zone. In 1994, we had another opportunity to do so, and failed to act.

EDIT#1: Added paragraph.
EDIT#2: Fix the quote boundaries damaged when the older threads (like this one) were transferred to the new vBBS.

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Like Stealth Bomber message, SlowwHand.

Watch the news when the airstrikes begin. My feeling is that the B-1 is going to plow a little dirt in Afganistan, as I've had several friends over the last decade chomping at the bit to use their conventional bombing training. We were just getting our conventional training completed during the Persian Gulf War, and the vast majority of B-1 were on nulcear alert (e.g., no chance they would be alllowed to drop conventional bombs). SAC is now gone, and we're ready to turn the dogs loose...

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Maybe I'm not as old as you, but nobody has not done anything bad against me, so I'm not within senseless rage.
This is like the rage in the roman empire against the christians.
Or this is like the crusades in 10th & 11th century against not-christians.
But more-like this is repeat of 1933-1945.
So... 2001-20??
Altough the motives are different, the ways seem to be same-kind. This is too sad.
[EDIT/PS: Starlifter, your pic... it is so easily compared to the Hitlers nationalist-propaganda-pics...]
:( :( :( :( :(
 
Make no mistake--I'm no Clinton fan either--but George Sr. ALSO had a chance to get rid of Saddam, the FIRST time, in the Gulf War. But he didn't, saying something about it being wrong to kill national leaders or something.... Nor would he even let the Iraqi people (Shi'ites, Kurds, other dissidents) do it for him, when Saddam was most vulnerable after the airstrikes were over....

Let's hope the son has the balls to do what the father balked at....

George Sr. placed mr. Hussein to his place, and sold him unreal quantities of biological weapons &
parts to nukes. Hussein used these against 'dirty muslims', and nobody said anything.
But when Saddam needed money and he took the oil wells in Kuwait, Saddam changed to a 'bad, dirty muslim'.
So think about that. History never lies. It just repeats. :(
 
"[EDIT/PS: Starlifter, your pic... it is so easily compared to the Hitlers nationalist-propaganda-pics...]"

Ah, Juize, I don't believe you are old enough to remember Hitler in his prime--how easily naive and rash "comparisons" come out of the mouths of some teenagers (I remember making similar outlandish comparisons and statements when I was your age...).

We're not about to commit genocide. We're not at war with a RACE, but with certain specific organizations that commit atrocity. What would you have us do, leave them alone to kill MORE people atrociously?

Since you are young, I will spare you the roasting someone older would get from me for comparing our professionals with Hitler's SS squads. The Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, and others Hitler butchered didn't DESERVE to be killed. These terrorists DO. Don't spit on the graves of Hitler's victims by comparing them to our terrorist targets....
 
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