If you could start out with any (except Ind/Phil) trait and tech combo...?

[futurehermit]

re: worker stealing. i haven't tried it out much in bts. my sense is that any war declaration prompts the ai to pump archers and that makes conquering more difficult. it is also hard to choke with only a single warrior (maybe i need more practice i guess). it also does depend on a (really) close neighbour and meanwhile what terrain have you really scouted if your warrior is over harassing an opponent? not much. plus if you pop barbs from a hut on the way to your opponent warrior = dead and you are screwed.

that is my take on it anyway

Some of the posters clearly or implicitely presume a close neighbour to rush or worker steal.... and that is not what hermit meant in the OP ( hemispheres does not mean that you have contact with another civ before astro, and even if you have, it may not be worthwhile to rush/worker steal ). Some of those combos would be clearly subpar in those conditions.

yes, i do want people to take into consideration any possible start when giving their answers.

 

[Gliese 581]

Somewhat off topic:

Some of the posters clearly or implicitely presume a close neighbour to rush or worker steal.... and that is not what hermit meant in the OP ( hemispheres does not mean that you have contact with another civ before astro, and even if you have, it may not be worthwhile to rush/worker steal ). Some of those combos would be clearly subpar in those conditions.

Yes, if I knew I have a close neighbour to rush I would probably pick aggressive as one of the traits but if you find yourself isolated then one of your traits are basically doing nothing for half the game.

 

[Yeosol]

Charismatic/Creative with Hunting/Mining

Hunting/Mining for the reasons listed before and Char/Cre because it looks like it would be really powerful and I can't play it. Ya ya ya Stonehenge isn't as useful. Big deal, it would still be awesome to play. A lot of early game power with build or war versatility.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

spi/cre, spi/phi, spi/fin, spi... whatever(this would be more or less the order - cre, phi, fin), just spiritual. Great for in/out slavery early on to avoid riot, slavery/caste later abit later, in/out on nationhood(playing marathon, so the globe city won't be draftable each turn), in/out slavery/emancipation(whip in newly conquered cities), in/out rep/us(to rush buy if you reach that late...)

mining/ag or mining/hunting(on marathon normally the worker will get out before you research anything, so chances are he'll just sit there 8-10 turns; with hunting you could get a 2nd scout out and really map everything around while you wait for bw supposing you get one of those crappy forested starts)

 

[futurehermit]

"crappy forested starts"?

only if your only food source is a plains cow i guess. but still i just chop, chop, chop workers and settlers. the capital ends up a production powerhouse (you can't really whip it of course because of low food) eventually. i actually don't mind those starts at all. if they have 2+ food specials they are awesome imo.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

in my experience(fractal only), over 70% of those starts are food poor(as in many grassland plains, not necessarily lack of special food resources, which are worthless for such a long time time, and they're worthless in what is your main city for quite a while)

 

[Clam Spammer]

FIN/ORG, Mining and Fishing.

Coast (which likely comes with seafood) or lake gives me a nice 3 tile right away, river means early riverside cottages (Pottery is open from the start) for a similarly good tile which will improve later on.

Mining opens up Masonry if I have marble, otherwise BW for chops. Either way I have a decent shot at Oracle with COL slingshot, and even if I don't get Oracle the lets me run my solid early economy at 100% and I'll likely pick up the religion anyway. Plus the cheaper courthouses are easier to whip in new or captured cities. I will likely go after a nearby opponent once the early expansion phase is over, especially if I have iron or elephants.

@OP - Do we get to assume some water (fresh or otherwise) in our start location? I'm not familiar with the Hemispheres map, so I don't know if it is balanced in this regard.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

FIN + AGG, Agriculture (land) / Fishing (sea) + Mining

Fast cottages, good food, high income to sustain rapid military expansion. Unbeatable.

 

[Gocho]

Fin/Cre

So Willem.

Fishing/Mining

I hate having to research fishing first if stuck on the shore to start, always makes growth feel that much slower. This would suck a bit if the only food was AH based but otherwise BW first if coastal and Agr first if not. Fishing/Agr is also very nice, once again Willem.

 

[BARBEERIAN]

I'd go SPI / CRE + Agriculture and The Wheel.

Spiritual just plain kicks ass. I'm a big fan of swapping civics all the time, and it's also handy for diplomacy. Creative allows me to block out land with ease, lets new cities focus on growth and infrastructure asap rather than getting that first border pop, and cheap Libraries / Theatres / Coliseums are quite nice to have. The cheap libraries have a synergy with Agri + Wheel since they help unlock writing early (just need AH).

Agriculture I like because there's almost always a farmable resource nearby, and if not there's bound to be some tiles worthy of farming to get my capital growing to the happy cap asap. Wheel because I like having not having to spend beakers researching it, and I find it has a bit of synergy with Creatives border pops (earlier resource access via border pops works pretty well with early roads).

Thankfully there's already a civ with this exact combo (and War Chariots to boot!) Go Hatty!! (Note: Ramessess with his Spi / Ind + Agri / Wheel was a very close second).

 

[Molybdeus]

re: worker stealing. i haven't tried it out much in bts. my sense is that any war declaration prompts the ai to pump archers and that makes conquering more difficult.

This is in fact exactly what you WANT. Fortify your Woodsman II warrior on a forested hill outside their city. (Or on a forest across a river.) The AI will then protect his/her capitol with four archers and then build another worker, which you can steal again because the AI does not seem to count on warriors being able to move two spaces. (I usually get three workers from a Woodsman II warrior.) Eventually you will have two or three cities rapidly being improved by free workers while your opponent only has their single unimproved capitol. Meanwhile you can rush your other rivals.

Fishing vs Mining is an argument of consistency versus maximal use. You don't get as many seafood starts as you think you do due to the fact that you really remember the times when you have fish or clams and can't work them right away. If you want to avoid the disaster of not having any good food tiles available to be worked by a worker then Fishing in the correct choice. But if you are willing to accept the occasional bad start and get better average results, then Mining/Agriculture is better.

 

[Clam Spammer]

This is in fact exactly what you WANT. Fortify your Woodsman II warrior on a forested hill outside their city. (Or on a forest across a river.) The AI will then protect his/her capitol with four archers and then build another worker, which you can steal again because the AI does not seem to count on warriors being able to move two spaces. (I usually get three workers from a Woodsman II warrior.) Eventually you will have two or three cities rapidly being improved by free workers while your opponent only has their single unimproved capitol. Meanwhile you can rush your other rivals.

Haha that's brilliant
One thing though - why do you assume that you're going to have a Woodsman II warrior? Surely you're relying on him to survive a battle or two (which you can't count on with warriors) or you trained it under Theo or Vassalage (which is just silly)? Unless there's something in BTS that makes this easier (I'm on Vanilla).

Re: fishing vs mining - I'd pick both rather than one with Agriculture. You can research Ag before your first worker comes out if you find you need it.

 

[Nares]

The AI will then protect his/her capitol with four archers and then build another worker, which you can steal again because the AI does not seem to count on warriors being able to move two spaces.

The AI can't handle this. It wasn't programmed to.

Which is why some players frown upon it. I now count myself amongst them.

 

[vale]

If you want to avoid the disaster of not having any good food tiles available to be worked by a worker then Fishing in the correct choice. But if you are willing to accept the occasional bad start and get better average results, then Mining/Agriculture is better.

Fishing is very quick to tech. If you are coastal with seafood, you can easily build a warrior while teching Fishing and lose very little time working your seafood both unimproved and improved. This especially holds if you start with Bronze Working, because you can tech Fishing - Bronze Working while building Warrior - Work Boat and working commerce tiles and whip out your first (and possibly second) Work Boat. Mining alone is key in this regards because it enables the research of Bronze Working right away. No other tech unlocks a tech of that level of importance.

However, I still prefer The Wheel to Agriculture for the exact same "flexibility" that you claim Mining/Agriculture has. You start with two techs that are immediately useful regardless of your surrounding terrain, and can tailor your research around your land more easily. If you are coastal you can tech Fishing - Bronze Working - .... while building Warrior - Work Boat - ...

If you are inland with grains, you can tech Agriculture - Bronze Working - ... while building Worker - Warrior.

Inland without grains is a pain for this tech start. Animal Husbandry is two techs away but in general, I would guess that it would be best to go Bronze Working - some path to Animal Husbandry that fits your general surroundings to allow your workers to start chopping forests for you.

 

[Molybdeus]

One thing though - why do you assume that you're going to have a Woodsman II warrior? Surely you're relying on him to survive a battle or two (which you can't count on with warriors) or you trained it under Theo or Vassalage (which is just silly)?

You can easily get enough XP from fighting animals. Just stick to hills and forests with your warrior and you should be OK. The only thing that causes problems are bears. God I hate bears.

The AI can't handle this. It wasn't programmed to.

Which is why some players frown upon it. I now count myself amongst them.

It is clearly unbalanced, but so are Quechuas and the Apostolic Palace. Given the fact Quechua rushes can obliterate several opponents in the beginning of the game with only warriors, I see no reason crippling a single opponent with the same shouldn't be allowed.

Inland without grains is a pain for this tech start. Animal Husbandry is two techs away but in general, I would guess that it would be best to go Bronze Working - some path to Animal Husbandry that fits your general surroundings to allow your workers to start chopping forests for you.

This is precisely the problem with starting without agriculture. Starts with pigs, cow and sheep are just as common as starts with seafood, but their tech is two techs away instead of one. It will be a very long time before you can start working that awesome 6 food pig tile if you have to research both agriculture and animal husbandry.

 

[Nares]

It is clearly unbalanced, but so are Quechuas and the Apostolic Palace. Given the fact Quechua rushes can obliterate several opponents in the beginning of the game with only warriors, I see no reason crippling a single opponent with the same shouldn't be allowed.

Other imbalanced features cannot be used to justify employing a cheap tactic.

Also, choking is a bit different from a Quechua rush. The difference lies in the AI's inability to handle a choke as well as a human player would. The choke has no more purpose than to exploit this weak characteristic of the AI.

A Quechua rush does not presume that you choke the AI, only that you amass an army of Quechuas and rush the AI's cities.

 

[futurehermit]

I'm not a fan of the warrior choke idea. I guess that's another reason I love starting with hunting.

 

[Scaphism]

Just beat me to it. This is a great combo for an all out warfare SE. Immediate happiness bonus, cheap libraries for scientists, cheap colosseums and theatres for happiness. With stone, pyramids, and monuments, you could be at 10 happiness (monarch) by 1000 BC yielding the ability to double whip early for warfare.

The other reason I find the combo attractive is because it doesn't exist.

I'd choose hunting and mining for techs. Love having that initial scout, researching BW or Ag first, AH right around the corner.

And if you wind up isolated, start over. Even if not isolated, it's a bummer if no one is closeby but at least you can rex.

My feelings exactly. I'm not positive if I'd prefer Mining/Hunting or Mining/Agriculture, but I think I'd be happy with either.

Hunting probably gets better the higher the difficulty level. Chance of popping barbs from a hut with a warrior goes up, and if you strike out on Copper you can still go directly to Animal Husbandry (Ag or Hunting works) and if you strike out there you can go directly to Archery.

I'm always slightly frustrated when playing Kublai Khan that he's an aggressive leader with a mounted UU/UB. If he were charismatic it would all work so well.

That, or a totally new leader/civ with those traits and techs.

 

[Molybdeus]

Other imbalanced features cannot be used to justify employing a cheap tactic.

Also, choking is a bit different from a Quechua rush. The difference lies in the AI's inability to handle a choke as well as a human player would. The choke has no more purpose than to exploit this weak characteristic of the AI.

A Quechua rush does not presume that you choke the AI, only that you amass an army of Quechuas and rush the AI's cities.

But what difference does the cause really matter if the effect of a Quechua rush is stronger? The AI is also incapable of defending itself against super early rushes, masses of siege weapons and Praetorians. Are they therefore not acceptable?

I don't have a problem with people who eschew all types of cheap tactics. I just disagree that a Quechua, Immortal or Praetorian rush is any better than cheap tactics such as worker theft.

 

[futurehermit]

Most people agree that quechua's and praets are imbalanced and some avoid using them for those reasons. Immortals can be imbalanced, but if the opponent gets spears they are not as powerful as say war chariots. Also, immortals/war chariots are hit and miss because you don't always have horses and/or a close neighbour.