I'll Give You One Jerry Falwell and...

[starlifter]

<br />posted September 18, 2001 06:54 PM <br /> Actually, Falwell's point was not that certain lifestyles are not compatible with Christian ideals. His point was that these lifestyles were not compatible with AMERICAN values.

These are two very, very, very different things. <br /><hr></blockquote>

Thanks for filling in some more about it. I really had not heard anything, except that Bush had chasteded Falwell (and others), and apologized for whatever he said/did.

America is a free country, and must remain so. Part of the point of freedom is to give people choices to make, within limits. Choice of lifestyle, whether or not some may like it, is a freedom, and those freedoms must not be abridged.

<br />I am an American. A loyal American. Served my country. But I do not believe in God. <br /><hr></blockquote>

And you shall not be discriminated against based on your exercise of your religion. I've serve under athiests (even an agnostic Commander in Chief), and they've served under me. Whether military or civilian, abridging one's freedom of religion takes all our freedoms.

<br />

<br />And the good reverend would have those who hang on his every word believe that I am at least indirectly to blame for this massacre. <hr></blockquote>

If that is what he said, then I'm sure his reputation will be hurt (even within his own community), and hopefully any rational person will know that Athiests, Jews, Hindus, Christians, Muslims, etc... no religion was responsible, even indirectly, for the attack... or sadly, the attacks that are coming, but have yet to occur.

Study bin Laden, read his words, listen to his "rationale", watch his recruitment videos... when you start to understand his motivation (which I won't yammer on about at this point), you will find his reasons for despising the West (no, not the USA as the leader of the West... but the WEST) and taking action are not based on religion, but several other things <img src="icon12.gif" border="0"> .

Another general comment. America is a Christian nation, and as long as it is, it will be a strong and powerful nation. The very Christian ideals underly the fabric of the nation, and have allowed it to prosper and rise to this point.

This in no way means or implies that there is no room for other religions, or even athiests. Nor does it imply a "litmus" test that some Americans (presumably Christians) are more "equal" than others. But neither does it mean that a recent wave of "Political Correctness" requires that America suddenly renounce its Christian nature, history, and future.

No other nation on Earth... nay, I say in the history of the human race... has been, is, and will forever remain tolerant of other races and religions like America. For that matter, no other nation even attempts to grant it's citizens the freedoms America does. Not Britain. Not Germany. Not Japan. Not Sweden. Not France. Not even Canada. None.

And when citizens are transgressed, America stands ready to remedy the transgression (albiet after the fact in many instances).

Think about it... I doubt Falwell called anyone to arms or incited violence. But even those "leaders" that do (and there are plenty of outright militants, even today, that do!) recieve protection and justice (albiet slow or imperfect at times). No jack-booted government thug burst in and hauled him off. In many nations, speech that does not please the leader (Falwell did not please Bush with his comments, the press reports) can result in dire consequences.

Well, in summary... what makes America great is it's ability to bring the most diverse group of humans in history, together in one Nation, grant equality to all, and work for over 200 years to ensure all our freedom and liberty.

God Bless America!

 

[allan]

Starlifter: "America is a Christian nation"

I'd have to beg to differ. Although the majority might be Christian, even many of "our founding fathers" were Unitarians or Quakers.... Along with such great American literary philosophers as Emerson, Thoreau, and Whitman.... America was from the beginning a refuge for persons fleeing religious persecution in Europe....

I have no problem with our saying "One nation under God" (even atheists can have a sense of things spiritual), but remember there are many ways to recognize and worship Him--and I believe God Himself inspired ALL of them (i.e. peoples have interpreted God in different ways through their cultures). But calling America a "Christian" nation is a slap in the face (whether or not intended) to Native Americans, Buddhists (where my spirituality tends toward), Moslems, and so many other good, productive Americans. We are a nation of "free people", as you also said.... And that freedom has just been assaulted by the forces of intolerance last Tuesday. Let us keep that in mind....

(And no, I don't like the tendency to bend over backward to be "politically correct" either, but I'm just stating fact.)

P.S. I like to think of America as a nation founded on REASON. On the rational values of freedom and capitalism. We haven't always been PERFECTLY rational, but then again perfection is beyond the abilities of human beings....

[ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: allan ]</p>

 

[amadeus]

What about the Reverend Jesse Jackson? Al Sharpton?

Well, Jerry Falwell did NOT use illegal tax loopholes to gain an immense amount of money (like the RAINBOW-PUSH COALITION did) and the Reverend Falwell believes in faith and the good of people. I think you'd be suprised if you saw what he was *really* like.

 

[starlifter]

<br />posted September 18, 2001 10:07 PM <br />Starlifter: "America is a Christian nation"

I'd have to beg to differ. <br /><hr></blockquote>

I understand that a some Americans may not want to hear or see that statement... However, it is not my opinion, but a truism -- even in the politically incorrect times since 1993.

Without giving undue weight to this one aspect of the overall prior post I made, I'll comment about some other things. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

<br />Although the majority might be Christian, <br /><hr></blockquote>

Truly, I am in no way trying to be condescending, but I did not say "The majority of Americans are Christian". This is a demographic observation that softens the point on the alter of Political Correctness.

In fact, America is a Christian Nation. It has always been a Christian nation, and hopefully will always remain a Christian nation.

<br />

<br />I have no problem with our saying "One nation under God" (even atheists can have a sense of things spiritual), but remember there are many ways to recognize and worship Him--and I believe God Himself inspired ALL of them<br /><hr></blockquote>

Again, this is not about worship, per se. It is not about the number of ways that a citizen can worship their God(s). "America a Christian Nation" is simply a truism that is sometime blunted or skewed in the name of Political Correctness.

<br />But calling America a "Christian" nation is a slap in the face (whether or not intended) to Native Americans, Buddhists (where my spirituality tends toward), Moslems, and so many other good, productive Americans. <br /><hr></blockquote>

This may be where a little honest confusion of some in America arises. It is not a slap in the face of anyone. Let's put it this way... I think most people would find it laughable if a statement such as "America is a Hindu nation" were made. Try substituting any other religion (not denomination, but religion) for "Hindu", and you'll probably see teh contrast with "America is a Christian Nation".

This in no way, directly or indirectly, insults any other religion, or indeed, any citizen or resident of America. Quite the contrary.

One of the astounding things (to many peoples in the world) is that a Christian nation is so open and tolerant (by the standards of most of the rest of the world's nations). We don't even have a State religion of any sort!

In fact, the direct influence of religion is removed by Constitution and force of law from the governing and judicial branches of America. Of course, this is a deliberate decision to allow citizens and residents to flourish and worship with freedom and peace.

So instead of some people (not necessarily you) choosing to interpret observation of fact as an insult, or even worse, to become a historical and factual revisionists... we should all celebrate how wonderful it is that a Christian nation, as America is, can soar above all other nations on Earth in terms of openness and acceptance of all religious faiths.

<br />

<br />We are a nation of "free people", as you also said.... And that freedom has just been assaulted by the forces of intolerance last Tuesday. Let us keep that in mind.... <br /><hr></blockquote>

To be quite direct and honest... no.

No, America was not assaulted by the "forces of intolerance". Quite frankly, that is softening the truth. The Free World (not just America) was attacked by despicable forces of evil. As a crutch, those disciples of evil happen to use a religion (Islam) that is by its fundamental nature, peaceful.

The terrorists have hijacked not just 4 aircraft, but an entire race and more importantly, an entire Religion... one of the world's most important religions that, sadly, the majority of Americans do not understand.

But no... America was not assaulted by forces of intolerance. What happened goes far beyond that, and tolerance is not part of the terrorists' vocabulary!

<br />

<br />P.S. I like to think of America as a nation founded on REASON. <br /> <hr></blockquote>

That is probably true... I think America was founded on reason, LOL <img src="icon12.gif" border="0"> . However, it is a matter of history that America was founded on Christian principles... and in fact the Bible was heavily drawn upon by Jefferson and others when building the nation.

It is very interesting to learn about, and it is laughable that some historical revisionists have, in recent years, actually tried to expunge (or at least minimize) the Christian basis of our great nation's founding! Oh well, facts don't change... no matter how much some special interest groups wish they would.

BTW, it is interesting, from a historian's point of view, to note that the best friend of the modern Jewish State is a new Christian State that tolerates, and indeed nourishes, all religions! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

 

[allan]

Define "Christian nation" then. Many of our founding fathers were Unitarians, which arguably are not "Christians" in the strict sense of the word.

I'm sorry, but some terms are not only divisive, but not necessarily factual either. And taking a different look at history isn't always "revisionism"--sometimes it's just taking a different look at history.

What the hell purpose does proclaiming our country a "Christian nation" serve, anyway? Why not just call ourselves a "nation of reason" (like Ayn Rand did--I don't agree with EVERYTHING she said, but she was right on target with most of it), or simply "the land of the free, the home of the brave"? You know, stuff that we can ALL relate to, and true as well? Can't you see how calling America a "Christian nation" diminishes the contributions and significance of others?

Our culture may be predominantly Christian (although it is more secular these days), but the values we were founded on aren't particular to the Christian religion. As a matter of fact, at the time of Christ there was NO nation like ours, nor by reading Christ's teachings would one necessarily derive a nation like ours as the culmination of the "Christian" ideal.... Rather, our nation was the culmination of the objective reason of man....

Not revisionism, not "political correctness" (I'm a libertarian, so that should tell you what I think of "PC" in general), but separation of church and state--a uniquely (at the time of our founding) "American" ideal.... This country is MINE as much as any Christian's who lives here. And its values are as much mine as any Christian's. And yet I am not a Christian. Hmmm, explain that....

As for my "forces of intolerance" phrase, I thought it went without saying that intolerance=evil. To me, they are the same, when they initiate force....

I think you mean well, Starlifter, but if you can't see how calling the country I served and love a "Christian nation" can alienate people like me who have chosen different personal spiritual paths, then I don't know how to explain it further....

[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: allan ]</p>

 

[starlifter]

Define "Christian nation" then. Many of our founding fathers were Unitarians, which arguably are not "Christians" in the strict sense of the word.

LOL, define "strict sense of the word"... to borrow from one of our more infamous politicians who wielded cigars against young American interns in the White House --- "It depends on what the definition of the word IS is!"

I'll let the historical record reflect the religion and denomination of the founding fathers... honestly, my personal library is packed in boxes and in storage at the moment, and I'm waiting for some dust to settle before I finish moving, or else I'd research some of that for you.

Speaking as a non-Unitarian, I believe Unitarians of 200 years ago were indeed Christians. Their denomination was Unitarian. There are many Christian denominations, BTW.

I'm sorry, but some terms are not only divisive, but not necessarily factual either.

A certain number of people are going to dispute almost any term applied to a large non-homogeneous group of people in a free society. The fact that America is a Christian Nation is in no way derisive or insulting to any citizen.

And taking a different look at history isn't always "revisionism"--sometimes it's just taking a different look at history.

Very good point, and you are quite correct!

What the hell purpose does proclaiming our country a "Christian nation" serve, anyway? Why not just call ourselves a "nation of reason"

Part 1: The purpose is that it is a statement of fact, and an oft-stated fact for over 200 years at that. To avoid any sort of mis-interpretation in our modern world, I'll use an example from a bygone era. Recall the Roman empire. Historians might term the Romans as pagans (or even heathens), or refer to their "nation" as Pagan Rome. Later, when they converted to Christianity, they can be termed "Christian Rome", or a "Christian Nation". Similarly, at this moment in history, America is still a Christian Nation, no matter how one might choose to spin it. And since we are in fact a Christian Nation, it is appropriate to use the term.

At a crucial time in history when some nations and terrorists call us "evil" and "Devils" and "infidels" and other similar anti-Christian terms, it is well worth using the accurate term that distinguishes us and our great nation from such nonsense: America is a Christian Nation. It is not an Atheist Nation. It is not an Agnostic Nation. It is not a Jewish Nation. It is not a Devil Nation. It is a Christian Nation. And that is a good thing. Duhhh...

Part 2: You can call us a Nation of Reason, an Arsenal of Democracy, the Defender of the Free World, The Bankroll of the UN, The Nation That Puts Men On The Moon, etc. Whatever you choose .

You know, stuff that we can ALL relate to, and true as well?

My response to the implication that we are a godless nation, or a bunch of devils, or an anti-religious nation from people (including terrorists) is not to state, "America is a Brave Nation". It is proclaim, "America is a Christian Nation".

Can't you see how calling America a "Christian nation" diminishes the contributions and significance of others?

No, not at all. America IS a Christian Nation, and that is not something to hide, cover up, re-label, or apologize for. It simply is simply a fact.

I fail to see how the fact (not opinion) that America is a Christian Nation detracts from others. Does the fact that Saudi Arabia is a Muslim Nation detract from others? No. Not at all. That Israel is a Jewish Nation? Again, it diminishes nor belittles nothing and nobody. Egypt? Sweden? England? France? Germany? Each nation also has brave people, and may be termed "Brave". This does not mean that all citizens are brave. It is not insulting to the citizens that may not be brave.

Many terms may be applied. None are terrorist states, so none may be termed a "Terrorist Nation".

One day in the very distant future, it is possible (though not probable) that things could change, and America could become something else. But now, and throughout it's history, America has been and still is a Christian Nation, LOL!!

Our culture may be predominantly Christian (although it is more secular these days), but the values we were founded on aren't particular to the Christian religion.

Many, Many values of Christians are shared by Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, etc. It just so happens that America was not founded by non-Christians. Also, the basis of foundation came from various Christian denominations. And ever since, America has continued to be Christian (as a Nation). Our coins do not bear the phrase "In Buddha We Trust", or "In No God Do We Trust", or "In Allah We Trust", or "Burn The Witches At The Stake". This is not an insult to any particular religion, but it is a fact. We are One Nation, Under God, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for All.

To this day, almost all government officials are sworn in using the Bible... not a Torah, or the Koran, etc. Courts use the Holy Bible. Every leader, and the vast majority of every congress in history are Christians (they often don't behave as "perfect" Christians, LOL).

As a matter of fact, at the time of Christ there was NO nation like ours,

Actually, I'm not talking about nations founded when Christ walked the Earth (Mormon beliefs notwithstanding, ). I'm talking about America today. It is a Christian Nation, for better or (some might say) for worse.

nor by reading Christ's teachings would one necessarily derive a nation like ours as the culmination of the "Christian" ideal...

Again, not to hammer this, but I'm not talking about a hypothetical derivation. I'm talking about America today. It is a Christian Nation. When confronted with pure evil, it is worth it to remind the world that we are a Christian Nation, especially as we go to war.

Rather, our nation was the culmination of the objective reason of man....

Ergo I have no objection if you choose to refer to America as an "Objective, Reasonable Nation".

but separation of church and state--a uniquely (at the time of our founding) "American" ideal....

BTW, a concept that has been quite distorted from the intent of the founders in recent years. For instance, they never intended such a concept to prevent prayer in schools, or the Ten Commandments posted in City Hall. But that's a topic for another thread.

This country is MINE as much as any Christian's who lives here.

No one is "taking" it away from you, LOL.

And its values are as much mine as any Christian's. And yet I am not a Christian. Hmmm, explain that....

Values are not a right. They are a choice. It is not requisite for a citizen to conform to a general Christian (or Judeo-Christian) ethic, or set of values. In theory, there can be as many different variations of personal values as there are citizens.

I think you mean well, Starlifter, but if you can't see how calling the country I served and love a "Christian nation" can alienate people like me who have chosen different personal spiritual paths, then I don't know how to explain it further....

The nation is Christian. The citizens are free to pursue any peaceful religion they choose.

Your rights will not be abridged because of your religious choices. Conversely, Christians will not be granted extra rights under the Constitution for being "Christian". As a practical example, if one of my NCO's give you (assume you are a new airman) a low job evaluation because of your religion, they will be punished and the situation rectified. If you run for city council in your city, and they remove you from the ballot because of your religion, you will have a Federal action.

So in short, America is a Christian Nation. This is a good time to remember it, on the eve of war facing people (terrorist groups) who have hijacked a religion and labeled us the godless heathens (to put it mildly).

America is a Christian Nation.

Praise the Lord and God Bless America!

EDIT: Fix the quote boundaries damaged when the older posts (like this one) were transferred to the new vBBS.

 

[allan]

Well, I say f*ck what the terrorists say... soon it will not matter. We don't have to prove ANYTHING to those scum, other than that we'll soon be wiping our asses with them....

I for one like "nation of reason" versus irrational madmen. And reason will prevail.

Why does our nation have to have ANY religious label? Religion is something personal, and transcendent of state. IMHO anyway. Call America what you will, though. One question, if you don't mind me asking: are YOU a Christian?

[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: allan ]</p>

 

[Ashoka]

Great, just what this country needs right now.

Falwell acting the idiot...again.

(Even Rush Limbaugh took him to task over the stupidity and non-American spirit of his remarks!)

And Starlifter and people like him getting rev'd up, talking about 'baby-killers' and 'queers'.. and the 'Christian nation of the United States'.<br />We may not need another attack from outside to rot apart from within.

I agree with Allan - above all, this is a nation founded on reason. While many of the founders were Christian, when so-called Christians abandon reason in order to forward their own personal political or religious dogma, I can't think of anything that is more un-American.

Ashoka

 

[Ashoka]

BTW, a concept that has been quite distorted from the intent of the founders in recent years. For instance, they never intended such a concept to prevent prayer in schools, or the Ten Commandments posted in City Hall. <hr></blockquote>

BTW - That was EXACTLY the intent of Thomas Jefferson and many of the Framers of the Constitution - that intent is VERY clear in many of the letters and records from the time. In order to avoid a state-sposored religion, there was an emphasis clear seperation - - and specifically ruled out is the idea that including many religions or a generic set of relgious icons and texts was okay, as it did not establish a specific faith. Yet this is the very argument that many conservatives try to use to justify using state resources to promote their faith.

As this fallacy has been repeated so many time by far-right conservatives, it's no wonder some people assume it to be true.

Ashoka

 

[starlifter]

Originally posted by Ashoka
-----
BTW, a concept that has been quite distorted from the intent of the founders in recent years. For instance, they never intended such a concept to prevent prayer in schools, or the Ten Commandments posted in City Hall.
-----

BTW - That was EXACTLY the intent of Thomas Jefferson and many of the Framers of the Constitution - that intent is VERY clear in many of the letters and records from the time. In order to avoid a state-sposored religion, there was an emphasis clear seperation - - and specifically ruled out is the idea that including many religions or a generic set of relgious icons and texts was okay, as it did not establish a specific faith. Yet this is the very argument that many conservatives try to use to justify using state resources to promote their faith.

As this fallacy has been repeated so many time by far-right conservatives, it's no wonder some people assume it to be true.

Yours is perhaps a case study in revisionist history. Due to your own beliefs of today, historical revisionists such as yourself wish to simply repeat (at best) partial truths and present them as the whole truth. Often, accuracy in such cases is of no concern. And so it is with your statement, which you have a right to make... even if it is at best a unintentional lie, in this case.

Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and the founders never intended such a concept to prevent prayer in schools, or the Ten Commandments posted in City Hall.

Very coincidentally, a documentary aired on one of the PBS channels in the last couple nights examined the faith and religious intentions of not only our founders, but our nation and its leaders thru last century.

For instance, are you aware of where the founders in Philedelphia in the late 1700's worshiped the Lord and Christ? Almost all the Founders were devout Christians... and the worshipped God in no less than the US Capitol, right in the House Chamber... no less frequently than every Sunday. The Christian church services were open to the public, and were the largest gatherings of Christians or any other religion in the region. This went on, every Sunday, for YEARS.

It is well documented in official records, personal diaries, news reports of the era, in archtectural remnants, etc. etc. that the Founders were not only Christian, but intent on founding a Christian Nation... One Nation... Under the Lord God... where all citizens were free to practice whatever religion they chose.

They explicitly did not want to force all citizens to be compelled to be Christians. That is a primary reason that Christianity was not simply made the "State Religion".


In our lineage of Presidents, I can think of 3 Presidents that acknowledged they were not a mainstream Christian, at least for some or all of their Presidency.

1. Abraham Lincoln. When asked "Do you worship Christ" by a reporter shortly before his assassination, this was his reply: "When I was elected President and left on the train for Washington, I was not a Christian. On the saddest day of my life when I buried my son, I was not a Christian. But when I stood upon the battlefield at Gettysburg to address, my heart was filled and became a Christian."

And so it was that Abraham Lincon entered our nation's highest office a heathen... yet on a hot summer day in July of 1863... on bitter, horrific battlefield.... after possibly the single most tragic event in American history... Abraham Lincoln became a devout Christian.

2. John F. Kennedy. A Catholic, which is a Christian Denomination... many peole tend to think of Catholics as their own category of religion, so that's why he's listed. Unfortunately, as we now know, Kennedy's own personal actions were often grossly incompatible with the Christian faith... and grotesquely incompatible with Catholicism. It is ironic, but somehow historically symmetric, that a young person he inspired would one day become President and sink the Presidency and the Nation to new depths of abomination.

3. Bill Clinton. His own writings refer to "... those Christians and their churches...". I will not presume to judge one way or the other, but just let his statements and actions stand on their own. It can be said, however, that at least he began attending a Baptist church (circa 1983) when attempting to regain the Governorship in Arkansas after the voters and his own party ousted him in 1981. "Inspired by Kennedy", Bill has stated on several occasions: Clinton's actions as President and in the very White House seem to display an utter contempt for even a thinly veiled illusion of holding, or indeed even aspiring to uphold, Christian values and ideals... even in the most personal sense. And no one would accuse him of projecting his leadership in faith to the Nation, either. And certainly not in the Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr., or Bush Jr. sense.

In summary, the Founders intended to keep the citizens of the nation free to peacefully practice their own chosen religion without penalty from the state. Religion was thus separated from state powers. Only in recent years have a minority of leftists used the very Constitution (and its derivative documents) to pervert the intent of the "Separation". In the future, it is likely the some will actually move to revise the Pledge of Allegiance, the National Anthem, "In God We Trust" on monetary instruments, etc.

One Nation under God... and In God We Trust!

 

[starlifter]

...
While many of the founders were Christian, when so-called Christians abandon reason in order to forward their own personal political or religious dogma, I can't think of anything that is more un-American.
...

LOL, you entire statement is non-sequitor, and in fact both contridictory and irrational. I understand you need to attempt direct insults in order to divert attention from the point of the discussion.

You do not and in fact cannot insult or offend me with such nonsense. In fact, I'm still going to defend your right to speak out, instead of insisting that you at least make sense and maintian historical accuracy.

...
I can't think of anything that is more un-American.
...

Such a statement is quite revealing, even in time of relative tranquility. But especially at this juncture, when you think the most "un-American" thing someone can do is recall historical facts, and re-affirm a 225 year old truism that "America is a Christian Nation", it shows where your true underlying motivations are coming from. I can think of several recent things that are more un-American, like killing American men, women, and children.

Sorry for you that you feel that way.

America is a Christian Nation.

One Nation.

 

[allan]

As for prayer in school and the like:

I'm not against people privately, to themselves, thinking or whispering a prayer to the God of their choice, in a school or ANYWHERE.... As a matter of fact, I believe it was the Apostle Paul (I don't remember for sure, it's been awhile since I studied the Bible) who emphasized that for a Christian, this was the BEST way to pray, intimately and personally, one-on-one with God--not to do it aloud and publicly, like the haughty Pharisees did....

What I AM against, and can see as an affront, is a teacher leading a prayer to a specific God, and telling those who are uncomfortable that they can leave the classroom. They may leave, but then the other kids take note of that and, just as they do ANY kid who is "different", often subject such kids to ridicule or ostracism.... When I was in first and second grade, teachers were able to lead in religious songs around Christmas time. I was raised a Christian so it didn't matter to me, but I remember one kid who was a Jehovah's Witness who always left the room, and all the kids teased him relentlessly for it, including me (shame on me). THAT is what I'm against; when teachers lead the class in these things, there is a certain pressure to conform--or single yourself out. Why should ANY student in a state school be subjected to that at a tender age? At that age, that IS coercion, and IMHO that Jehovah's Witness demonstrated GREAT courage in the face of it, although I was too young to appreciate it at the time.

The reason I asked you, Starlifter, if you were a Christian yourself (and you didn't answer, although I assume you are), is to say that perhaps if you were NOT a Christian, you'd understand these issues from our point of view. That having been said, there are a LOT of civil libertarians who ARE Christians and yet can see these things from an EQUALLY "American" non-Christian perspective.

But so what? You can pray to God whenever you want (He'll hear you, right?), even in school--teachers simply can't ORGANIZE public prayers, because they must attend to the needs and sensitivities of ALL students. Why some people have a problem with that is beyond me....

(BTW, I agree with those who say our public schools are FAR from being as good as they should be--but a simplistic "bring back classroom prayer" ain't going to remedy ANYTHING. What our schools need to rediscover is solid, consistent discipline, leadership and accountability.)

 

[Ashoka]

------------------------------------------------
Yours is perhaps a case study in revisionist history. Due to your own beliefs of today, historical revisionists such as yourself wish to simply repeat (at best) partial truths and present them as the whole truth. Often, accuracy in such cases is of no concern. And so it is with your statement, which you have a right to make... even if it is at best a unintentional lie, in this case
------------------------------------------------------------

I accept the claim that their are different interpretations of the Founders' intent in church-state seperation. Calling that revisionist is a little unfair, SL. It does not support that you are right, and those who disagree with you are wrong, by calling them 'revisionists.' AFAIK, my representation is fair and truthful. As neither you nor I were there, we both have to depend on historical sources.. (We could ask Strom Thurmond...perhaps he remembers! ;-) )

--------------------------------------------------------------------
It is well documented in official records, personal diaries, news reports of the era, in archtectural remnants, etc. etc. that the Founders were not only Christian, but intent on founding a Christian Nation... One Nation... Under the Lord God... where all citizens were free to practice whatever religion they chose
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The difference, as I see it, between "a nation founded by Christians" or "a nations of predominantly Christians" or "a nation founded on Christian beliefs" (all of which I would agree are accurate) and "a Christian Nation" is the implied linkage between belief/scripture and law. THAT, and its similarity to the way the Taliban proportedly behaves, is what makes many Americans (not just left-wingers) nervous.

There are actually people who advocate that the Bible supersedes the Constitution and American law in a court of law...arguing the Bible was the source and authority of those laws. Some groups have tired to use the Bible in court as a defense to illegal actions. A "Christian Nation" could actually be a country where a religious doctorine was held as more important than laws developed in a mutually agreed upon democratic process. This seems antithetical to the foundation of this country.

Even the Ten Commanmdments issue presents problems - - WHICH Ten commandments should be posted? There are at least three different versions - one in most Protestant Bibles (based on the KJV), one from the Catholic Bible, and yet another from the Torah. I guess the KJV was the one most familiar to the Founders... is that enough to justify chosing over the others? AND IF, when forced to choose like this, the State makes one choice over the other two, is that not supporting establishment?

It is so much more than 'fuzzy headed PC'ers who hate the Bible' or people brainwashed by liberal culture, or those too stupid to get the nuances. Love your faith - I love mine. Practice it. If anyone tries to stop you, I will be there beside you to fight that. But why is it so threatening to create CIVIL space in our country...places where the common, shared beliefs ('civics') are shared?

To quote the Simpsons..."Prayer has no place in public schools...just like facts have no place in organized religion." Even if most people in a school are Christian, prayer in school seems as abominable to me as a government forcing scripture to be edited to coincide with scientific 'fact' or theory.

The point not to be lost: The sanctity of one is protected by protecting the sanctity of both. Anything less threatens BOTH church and state.

IMHO -

Ashoka

 

[allan]

I still don't understand why you are so worried about the terrorists thinking we are a "godless nation"--who the hell is gonna care WHAT they say once we've bombed the sh*t out of them?

Who cares about the rantings of unmedicated madmen like those terrorists? REASON will prevail--with an iron fist if need be.... We are a nation of reason, often peaceful, sometimes (if necessary) harsh, as reason is....

The Vatican is a Christian nation. We are a nation of free and rational people, Christian and non. If bin Laden doesn't like it, then f*ck him--don't try to humor him... if he were on fire, he ain't worth backing up to take a piss on....

 

[starlifter]

Originally posted by allan

...
Why does our nation have to have ANY religious label? Religion is something personal, and transcendent of state. IMHO anyway. Call America what you will, though. One question, if you don't mind me asking: are YOU a Christian?

[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: allan ]

To say "America is a Christian Nation" is not a label... it accurately says something historical, current, and positive about us. We are not a Godless nation. The term is Christian.

I haven't stated my religion, in part because most of what I reason and write is in general quite objective and would withstand logic and accuracy scrutiny from and religious perspective.

That is, I don't state as the fundamental basis for a thought "The Bible says YYYYY, and that is the ZZZZZZ event is wrong." From a Buddhist's perspective, the entire line of reasoning might therefore be ineffective, since the Christian Bible would only be a historical document, not a sacred basis.

The vast majority of issues in an about America can be reasons and agreed upon without everyone agreeing to a specific Religion, and indeed, a specific Denomination. Ergo, you have never seen me make a post like "God told Moses that to Kill is a sin... therefore, killing is a sin". Any civilized person will agree that killing people is sinful... all major Religions have this as a common fundamental tenet. But whether or not people agree, it is still wrong in the absolute sense, and so we have laws forbidding it. But the law does not use the Christian Bible as the enuciated basis of the law. However, the men (and women) that created the law are, by and vastly large, inspired by the Christian faith and ideals.

But to your question, yes, I am a Christian. Like Lincoln, events in my life were the catalyst. I'd likely be termed a non-denominational Christian, as I'm not affiliated with a specific denomination of any sort. It is sort of Ironic that I personally have a great deal of conflict with most specific denominations, mainly on their often irrational or illogical, yet intractable, basis.

For instance, although the Bible is the inspired Word of God, it is amazing how many denominations wield it like a club, LOL. You haven't seen a real fight until you watch a church fight and then split, hehe...

The original topic of this thread (Falwell, a Christian minister of some denomination or the other) makes such silly statements... yet he is a "leader", so I hold him more accountable than say, and average poster or layman.

It is interesting to note that the discussion in my last few posts about America being a Christian Nation I held the same, and with the same tenacity, even before accepted Christ personally. It would never even have occurred to me be in any way insulted for the fact that America really is, and always has been, a Christian Nation.

Be all that as it may, America is a Christian Nation... It was inspired and founded by Christians, and the Lord God inspired the men (and women) thru the darkest hours of American history. It is a matter of historical record, not religious interpretation.

Were it not for the inspiration of God to General George Washington during that terrible winter at Valley Forge, the fledgling American army would have disbanded and America would have ceased shortly thereafter. Read the historical documentation. PBS has had at least 2 documentaries which have described it, too. Washington, and also his personal secretary, have left quite a record of it. And Washington was not alone.

Similar stories abound for almost all the founders and leaders in American history, even in the last 100 years. The demise in Christian leadership from our highest elected office in the years 1993-2001 were (and will hopefully remain) an aberration in American history. But even through those recent dark years, America has remained a Christian Nation... for the Nation is more than any single individual, even a President.

God Bless America!

 

[starlifter]

LOL, I see we are busily typing out overlapping posts. I have to go for a run before it gets dark here in Seattle. I need to keep in shape for the upcoming conflict, and have slipped from a su-6 minute mile in recent months of our national tranquility.

But to quote the greatest American militay leader in the last 100 years, "I Shall Return" .

 

[Dogberry_Old]

about Messers Falwell & Robertson is that their first impulse was to use this tragedy to slam their perceived political opponents & attempt to sow hatred & division. That they managed to shoot themselves in the foot is besides the point. I am sure that they will be back with further attempts. I believe that Jerry Falwell is sincere at least.. but Robertson with his diamond mines in the Congo is just a cynical exploiter of any situation.

Dog

 

[allan]

Me: "if he [bin Laden] were on fire, he ain't worth backing up to take a piss on...."

Yeah I know, that sounds very "Buddhist" of me, doesn't it...

Well, that's the karma of such evil men.... I'm not a strict Buddhist, but I like the philosophy of Karma--"what goes around comes around"--and it DOES....

Starlifter, maybe this is an argument over semantics--but to a non-Christian, calling the nation of my birth, the nation I served (and I know you continue to serve it, and I respect that greatly), a "Christian nation" somehow implies that I'm not AS American as my Christian brothers.... And to me, our greatness IS our free diversity--THAT is the unique symbol of America, and it's a great thing! It's NOTHING to hide or downplay or be ashamed of--in spite of what the bin Ladens of the world might think....

A nation of predominantly Christian people? Yes, we are. A nation founded mainly by Christians (Unitarians aren't really though--they believe in the universality of all religions, something the Bible doesn't teach--but actually something I DO tend to believe)? I'll even buy that. But a "Christian nation"? I'm sorry, but that not only can carry an implication of linkage of church and state (whether intended or not), but also tends to make non-Christian Americans like myself feel somehow "less" American. I'm not alone in this feeling either, and if you were decidedly (not passively) non-Christian like I am, who's at times taken some sh*t for it, you'd probably understand....

Not to mention the Native Americans who revere the land and its life (and their spirits) as sort of gods (things which are given great reverence)--they aren't Christian, but they (to me) DEFINITELY embody the spirit of America--freedom, honesty, generosity, and wisdom.... And I believe they've influenced our ways and culture more than we realize. (Europeans talk of American "bluntness" or "plainspokenness"--I think we got that from the Indians (it tends to increase further westward), because it wasn't a trait of European aristocrats!)

My point is, people from ALL walks and religions have come together to make our nation great--why recognize only one, by using the term "Christian nation"? Have you ever thought that the reason so many seem to "misunderstand" what you mean, is because that phrase easily lends itself toward that misunderstanding? Put yourself in other shoes for a minute....

 

[starlifter]

By Ashoka:

...
There are actually people who advocate that the Bible supersedes the Constitution and American law in a court of law...arguing the Bible was the source and authority of those laws. Some groups have tired to use the Bible in court as a defense to illegal actions. A "Christian Nation" could actually be a country where a religious doctorine was held as more important than laws developed in a mutually agreed upon democratic process. This seems antithetical to the foundation of this country.

Even the Ten Commanmdments issue presents problems - - WHICH Ten commandments should be posted? There are at least three different versions - one in most Protestant Bibles (based on the KJV), one from the Catholic Bible, and yet another from the Torah. I guess the KJV was the one most familiar to the Founders... is that enough to justify chosing over the others? AND IF, when forced to choose like this, the State makes one choice over the other two, is that not supporting establishment?
...

LOL, while you were posting the above, I was busily typing this:

by Starlifter:

....
That is, I don't state as the fundamental basis for a thought "The Bible says YYYYY, and that is the ZZZZZZ event is wrong." From a Buddhist's perspective, the entire line of reasoning might therefore be ineffective, since the Christian Bible would only be a historical document, not a sacred basis.

The vast majority of issues in an about America can be reasons and agreed upon without everyone agreeing to a specific Religion, and indeed, a specific Denomination. Ergo, you have never seen me make a post like "God told Moses that to Kill is a sin... therefore, killing is a sin". Any civilized person will agree that killing people is sinful... all major Religions have this as a common fundamental tenet. But whether or not people agree, it is still wrong in the absolute sense, and so we have laws forbidding it. But the law does not use the Christian Bible as the enunciated basis of the law. However, the men (and women) that created the law are, by and vastly large, inspired by the Christian faith and ideals.

by Ashoka:
...
To quote the Simpsons..."Prayer has no place in public schools...just like facts have no place in organized religion." Even if most people in a school are Christian, prayer in school seems as abominable to me as a government forcing scripture to be edited to coincide with scientific 'fact' or theory.
...

What is wrong would be forced prayer is school, particularly at the orders of the State. Peer pressure, or even cruel kids, are not the State. Most Americans do not fully appreciate that the rights of the individual end (sorry, ACLU) when the begin to infringe on the freedoms of others. That is not to be construed as a club for a small minority to obstruct the free and peaceful exercise of of a fundamental Constitutional right. BTW, I am fully aware of the legal and case history in these sorts of cases, and have studied Constitutional law at length, so I know the ACLU's position, and what their reply would be to my statement.

What we have now is a situation where those that wish to pray under any circumstance in school are forced not to. Ironically, even students of other faiths are denied this right in most American communities as a result. This injustice will (and has been on a local basis) eventually be rectified, however.

Let me restate. Prayer in schools does not mean the extreme case... that jack-booted government thugs police the classrooms and force students to pray. It simply means schools are free to allow students to choose to do so. It is absurd that the objections of even one student (in some cases) have caused the denial of this basic right for everyone else. Well, actually, the absurd thing is that some judge(s) supported the case in the first place.

Should our government officials be forbidden to make national policy amid prayer in the National Cathedral? Of course not. But don't be so sure... guaranteed that exercise of religion and government offended someone, somewhere last week.

Average America life is not extreme, and the freedom for people to pray, even in a school, is not extreme. But if people were forced to pray when they chose not to, I'd be on their side (and in fact, have been, in my official capacity, before).

by Allan:

...
What I AM against, and can see as an affront, is a teacher leading a prayer to a specific God, and telling those who are uncomfortable that they can leave the classroom.
...

If it were an arbitrary thing, left up to the individual teachers an not subject to the community's rules/guidelines, then that example would be approaching the point at which the rights of one infringe on the rights of another.

Without being too simplistic, there is not a guarantee of "comfort" in the Constitution, or government. One need only announce their discomfort to "prove" a point. What about the discomfort of those who are not allowed to pray? It works both ways.

But there are lots of ways of working out disputes without taking the extreme step of barring all prayer. Once again, what about the "discomfort" of Americans with blessings from Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr. or Bush Jr.? Many in America are not Christian, and may not like Biblical quotations, prayers, and services in a Cathedral. But that does not mean plow down the Cathedral, burn the nation's Bibles, and install a censor for our nation's political leader's speeches.

In short, that's life. America is a Christian Nation. But if we elected a Muslim President (a possibility someday), I would not be insulted if he/she made references to the Koran, or even wore the traditional clothing. Though the low Character and lifestyle of JFK offends me and any other American who values decency and morality, I am not at all offended that JFK was a Catholic, presuming he practiced even some shred of his chosen faith. I do know that many used to say "America will never elect a Catholic". How wrong they were!

by Allan:

...
The reason I asked you, Starlifter, if you were a Christian yourself (and you didn't answer, although I assume you are), is to say that perhaps if you were NOT a Christian, you'd understand these issues from our point of view.
...

Actually, I answered that... our posts crossed. I am indeed a Christian, and would be called "non denominational". I attend services of all (well, most) faiths, including non-Christian services, around the world. By beliefs and values are unshakably Christian, however. The Bible, not droning from a Pulpit or some rabid Denominational dogma, is my reference source for any argument among Christians about a religious point.

That said, none of my posts to CivFanatics Forums are religious in primary intent, e.g., none are theological discussions.

In fact, I have the ability and practical experience and clear memories of points of view from both Christian and non-Christian perspectives. In fact, though I'm not an expert in such religions as Shinto, Buddhism, Islam, etc... I have spent much time in other counties learning as much as I could from locals.... e.g., listening and dispensing with the American preconceptions about given issues.

I've traveled a lot, and learned very quick that the rest of the world knows much more about America that Americans know about the rest of the world. Part of this is due to the fact America is a "reference" culture for many (most) people in the world. It is viewed as a "negative" reference, with the extreme examples being the point of views of Hammas, Islamic Jihad, the Shining Path, and other such groups. But the fact is that there are hundreds of cultures around the world, and all know of America. So a particular person need know their own view, and what they think of America... yet for an American, there are just too many localities and cultures, etc. to even form a mis-conception about.

So it is relatively easy for me to know and consider and understand different points of view within our own American culture... posts (even mine ) are too short to give a full discourse on every topic, but almost all of my own end-result thoughts come at the end of a long road of research and logic, FWIW.

...
is to say that perhaps if you were NOT a Christian, you'd understand these issues from our point of view.
...

I'm a Christian, but logic stands on its own. And I do see other points of view, too... including yours .

...
The Vatican is a Christian nation. We are a nation of free and rational people, Christian and non. If bin Laden doesn't like it, then f*ck him--don't try to humor him... if he were on fire, he ain't worth backing up to take a piss on..

It is worth thinking what you would really do if you had the bayonet to his throat... not metaphorically, but in vivid real life... Plunge it in and be done with it, or stand for principle and bring him to justice and perhaps imperfect judgment. Quite a question, one that I personally will never face. But there is a reasonable chance that if he is captured, my plane might have the luck of the draw to bring him out of wherever. And I have a 9mm and a full clip.

An interesting mind game might be the legal issues of shooting a terrorist, if the legal authority on a vessel in international waters/airspace decided to. Would such a person then be prosecuted by America for killing the butcher of 5,000+ people? Hmmm.... an interesting hypothetical/philosophical question...

 

[starlifter]

by Dogberry:

The Thing to remember.. about Messers Falwell & Robertson is that their first impulse was to use this tragedy to slam their perceived political opponents & attempt to sow hatred & division. That they managed to shoot themselves in the foot is besides the point. I am sure that they will be back with further attempts. I believe that Jerry Falwell is sincere at least.. but Robertson with his diamond mines in the Congo is just a cynical exploiter of any situation.

You and I have our share of differing views, and believe it or not, that's a large part of what makes America great... that people can freely disagree.

But on the big picture here we agree. The topic of this thread is Falwell, and though I still don't know (have not had time to go search fo it) his exact quotes, and really don't know much about Falwell himself, either... from the indirect discussion, Falwell is in my dog-house (pun?!), too.

But the big picture is not just Falwell. It's lots of others, too... everyone from Al Sharpton to Yassir Arafat to Terry Falwell... In a free society, everyone has a responisbility to be vigilent (not a vigalantee).

There are lots of cynics, but the intersting thing is the even those we don't agree with often have valid underlying points. Even Saddam Hussein makes a valid point on rare occasion. Conversely, there are many that think the Pope rarely makes a good point these days, with his unshakable views on abortion (yes, baby-killing), infidelity, homosexuality and other sexual perversions, birth control, etc. Kind of ironic, huh? FWIW, I am not a Catholic (though I've been to masses in the Vatican)... but John Paul II is one of my personal heroes because of his strength of character, and dedication to do the right thing as God gives him the light to see it, no matter what the internal/external political and secular pressures are.

BTW, if you feel the urge, you might want to fill us (me) in on the diamond mine situation. I've only been to the Congo twice, and both those were to support Presidential/VP trips, so no time for touring the local area. Does Robertson have diamond mines there?