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Illians - The Draw

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by ReflexiveAxiom, Oct 24, 2008.

  1. ReflexiveAxiom

    ReflexiveAxiom Chieftain

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    I'm just about to finish up my first 0.34 game, with Auric Ascended floating around the world like some kind of death-dealing octapus blimp, freezing all other civilizations while my vast army of Illian Champions stay home and make ice cream. I really like the uniqueness of this particular path to victory, but I have a lore-related queston about one of the steps required to getting there -the Draw ritual. What is the Draw, that it causes every other civilization to declare eternal war on your civilization, while simultaneously halving the populations of your cities and damaging your units? Are the Illians drawing some kind of holy/unholy power from the icy world, and the other civs are trying to stop them? Or do the other leaders only at this point catch on to the fact that the Illians are trying to resurrect the Age of Ice, and decide to put a stop to it? Does anyone know?
     
  2. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    Its a massive ritual powered by the lives of the Illians. The other civs declare war because:

    1. Its a very vile unholy act.
    2. It will lead to the return of the god of winter, which no one wants.
    3. It makes an interesting risk/reward decision for the players ability to create Auric Ascended.
     
  3. BugReportage

    BugReportage Warlord

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    1. Its a very vile unholy act.
    2. It will lead to the return of the god of winter, which no one wants.

    Just commenting...
    Shieam summoning Hyborem is pretty vile...
    Doviello wouldn't mind winter coming back.
    What about diplomatic races like Malakim? I guess they improve relationships with but the Illians so it's good for them...
    Wouldn't Agares want Mulcarn to come back and wreck creation's diversity?
    If so why would Hyborem declare war on the Illians?
    Demons are fallow meaning snow has no effect on them either, I don't think they'd care if the world froze over, it'd make everyone else much more vulnerable to attacks.

    I guess that's all loreish and lore does not always fit with playability. :p
     
  4. GeeJo

    GeeJo Flibbertigibbet

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    The Draw is a ritual requiring a tremendous amount of energy, with the intent of bringing a God to Creation

    The first mention of such a spell is in the Age of Magic by Trenton, an Aifon sent out to discover a way to save his people. The magic would use vast energies to summon the Aifons' patron, Danalin, to Erebus. It's been speculated that he partially cast the spell without realising the price, leading to the destruction of his race, though there's little confirmation of that. If it were so, the unused energy would explain how it was relatively easy for the Illians to complete the ritual, but with a different target (Mulcarn) without greatly depleting their own forces. Auric Ulvin seems keen to try it again, even if, with the Aifon energy depleted, the price is greater this time around.

    In the D&D Campaign, Auric intended to use the energy siphoned from Tebryn Arbandi's casting of the Armageddon spells to fuel The Draw (or its equivalent.)
     
  5. KillerClowns

    KillerClowns Emperor

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    In the case of the Sheaim and Infernals, Mulcarn ruling is the last thing they want. As a god of Stasis, he would preserve the world forever. Demons represent entropy, change for the worse but change nonetheless. Say what you will about Mulcarn, he's good at getting around the second law of thermodynamics. He opposes everything the demons stand for, and would want them destroyed.
    EDIT: Personally, I would suggest freezing the AC as long as Auric Ascendant roams. That seems more of a modmodder thing, though.
     
  6. SwordofStriker

    SwordofStriker Prince

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    The world DoW'ing on the Illians for creating Auric Ascended is not really any more vile in my opinion than bringing in Hyborem, or even Basium for that matter depending on your alignment and viewpoint.

    It seems that should be a mechanic applied to all three in all fairness (or nerfed). Auric ascended can easily be killed by a prepared stack of doom, and honestly you don't even need much of a stack as has been noted in other threads.
     
  7. BugReportage

    BugReportage Warlord

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    Agares only wants to prove that creation is flawed. If Mulcarn puts creation into stasis, then creation WILL BE flawed. (As it will simply be the same as Mulcarn's vault and no longer the creation ever angel had taken part in) :p
    Whether or not the One would choose to destroy creation in a state of forever stasis remains to be seen.
    Agares was the one in the first place that set up the fall of Bhall so that Mulcarn could step into creation unchallenged. At least that's what the lore says.

    I think the draw should just be a -10 relations modifier or something. Like "YOU BROUGHT ABOUT A SECOND AGE OF ICE!" that only some races will express to the illians.
    Perhaps Doviello gets a positive relations boost. I think Hybo should also get a relations boost because it's only making life easier for him.

    Is it even possible to win on deity after using The Draw? Has anyone managed to win with all deity AI declaring war on them?
     
  8. Zechnophobe

    Zechnophobe Strategy Lich

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    The Draw is the reason why people want Auric Ascended to basicaly be 'win'. It's such a terribly bad ritual, and costs so much, just so you can make a decent unit. I'd generally rather have an Archmage than AA, since he can cast Ice 3 too, but also other things.
     
  9. ReflexiveAxiom

    ReflexiveAxiom Chieftain

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    On the other hand, an Archmage doesn't look like Dr. Octapus on steroids. Just saying. :p
     
  10. MrUnderhill

    MrUnderhill Civ-loving Hobbit

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    Archmages don't have 60 strength, either. Granted, half of that is in Cold damage which gets negated by Magic Immune,
    but he's still the strongest unit in the game, barring external forces.
     
  11. WCH

    WCH Prince

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    AA doesn't have Ice 3. He's got something that's more like Ice 5... radius of 2, not 1, and no cap on damage. When using him to fight the Infernals I once saw him kill 25 Manes in one shot. Ridiculous.

    If you put him with a couple High Priests of Winter and get them to cast their (much weaker) Snowfall on an enemy stack, and then get him to use his once they're already weak... there's a very good chance there simply won't be anything left. That's power.
     
  12. petepetepetep

    petepetepetep Chieftain

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    Look at it this way: One out of every two Illians has died in an episode of indescribably vile magic. The upshot is that they can now begin to build their own Invincible God. It may well be that they themselves are past the point of negotiating with other civs.

    One question though, does anybody know what effect this has on prior vassals and permanent allies? That is, are such engagements dissolved by The Draw, or do you get to keep them?
     
  13. Merddyn

    Merddyn Scholar of the Arcane

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    All I can tell you from testing it with my brother is casting the draw does not declare war on your teammates (Stasis has no affect on them, either.)
     
  14. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    Would it be possible for the presence of Aulric Ascended to cause a the reverse effect of End of Winter so long as he survives? Causing a more global effect would certainly make him worth the ritual, and be a darn good reason for everyone to want him dead ASAP.
    Side note, whilst he's in play, shouldn't other players gain a +Big to their diplomatic relations? Call it "The enemy of my enemy..." or something like that. Would certainly help the world on the teaming up side of things.
     
  15. Keeper_GFA

    Keeper_GFA Prince

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    There already is a bonus for being at war with the same enemy.
     
  16. Ksi

    Ksi Warlord

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    Opposite end of winter would be nice. AA is a joke right now. I killed my friend's AA with 3 immortals. I did not even have the godslayer.
     
  17. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    A reverse End of Winter would be hard to implement. I guess it would probably have to work by setting the base terrain to snow then setting a temporary terrain to the old terrain type. It would be hard to undo when he dies though.

    I think that Xienwolf's idea of making temp terrain counters halt while he is alive could be cooler. That would mean his Snowfall would be permanent until he is killed.


    Draw also doesn't make your Vassals turn on you, and if you can use The Seven Pines or a captured Corindale you can end the permanent war and have normal diplomacy again.





    I've had Auric die to a mere archer before. I know the unit didn't have the godslayer either, as I had cheated to put him in the game without the ritual that creates the godslayer.



    I have Auric 20 Ice affinity and made Ice nodes buildable in my version, but found his strength never got over 100 regardless of the amount on mana. I believe this is a built in limit in the game, so nothing making him stronger that that would work. Making him start with Combat I-V however would be a big boost.

    I think it would make sense for Auric to have some command promotions. It seems reasonable that those who witness the power of a god first hand would convert to worshiping him.

    Maybe it would be a good idea to make Auric Ascended escape to the capitol instead of dieing and costing your traits unless the unit that slays it had The Godslayer.
     
  18. Keeper_GFA

    Keeper_GFA Prince

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    Command would be reasonable for AA, even 100% would be reasonable (opponents better have Loyalty) given his divinity and the fact that a unit subject to Command is in a greatly weakened state. Is this a good place to ask that Magic Immunity doesn't stop Loyalty again? :)

    I agree that AA's biggest weakness is really the lack of promotions. He starts stronger than everyone, but everyone else can better than double their strength with enough promotions.

    It has been discussed before, but having the Illians build (or otherwise receive) Auric himself and then, after suitably promoting him, Auric would have to pilgrimage to the Letum Frigus in order to ascend. Then he keeps his existing promotions and can't get any more. This gives Illians the choice of when to Ascend him, weaker but early, or later but stronger. It gives others the chance to prevent his ascension by controlling the Letum Frigus.

    The idea for tying AA to snow spreading/persisting has been tossed around as well, and I really think that's an excellent idea if doable. It makes AA a threat similar but different to Hell and Armageddon, and it really pushes other civs to go after him.

    And to put this back on The Draw, AA's presence should prevent all war weariness for the Illians.
     
  19. Ksi

    Ksi Warlord

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    Interesting idea. If the snow spread is hard then this is also possible. Give Auric a spell after getting ascension that allows him to ascend if he is on the Letum Frigus. Snowfall permenent is also good. Him dying to an archer without the Godslayer is a joke !
     
  20. Demus

    Demus King

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    this would only work if the letum frigus was in every single game though (or being tied to eighter the amurites or the illians being ingame). No war weariness after the draw would be nice though.
     

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