I'm not even upset anymore by "1.0 stuff"

I think we all hoped for a good day 1 release and this is probably as good as it gets.
That's a terrible thought if I ever heard one!
As someone pointed out, the alternative is that they could finish the game this year and spend the next year play testing it internally. I don't think that will work realistically
I'd vastly prefer that myself, that's pretty much what I'd expect from any AAA release.

It's like I said in my initial post, I don't expect all the civilization to be perfectly balanced on release or that every convenience function to be ideally implemented. Things I would consider too far with the current state of the game are the units selling exploit, the chopping exploit, the AI being unable to wage wars with even moderate competence, the trade exploits, the lack of team multiplayer, instability and the lack of a DX12-enabled version (because we were promised that, not because it's strictly need to play).

A lot of the other issues, even ones that are greatly detrimental to me personally - like the game inheriting the same inability to scale with game speed that Civ5 suffered from or the lack of decent map scripts - are things I could grudgingly accept being fixed with a coming patch.
 
Here we go again, this gets hashed over and over every new release for the last several decades. There is only one feasible solution I've heard yet, and that's some certification for games. Similar to ESRB age ratings, but for quality control.

I'm surprised this still hasn't happened. I guess gamers just don't care enough and are just used to things being broke on release and just accept it as fact anymore. Sadly a lot of games get released in beta stages, let alone sometimes in alpha. We will have to put up with it until someone creates such a quality control systems as corporations won't regulate unless forced.
 
Here we go again, this gets hashed over and over every new release for the last several decades. There is only one feasible solution I've heard yet, and that's some certification for games. Similar to ESRB age ratings, but for quality control.

I'm surprised this still hasn't happened. I guess gamers just don't care enough and are just used to things being broke on release and just accept it as fact anymore. Sadly a lot of games get released in beta stages, let alone sometimes in alpha. We will have to put up with it until someone creates such a quality control systems as corporations won't regulate unless forced.

Oh yeah, imagine having to go through a government regulation bureau to get new gameplay features implemented! Woooo, great idea!

HINT: Things would stay precisely the same, but nothing would ever ( officially ) come out of Beta.
 
I've been computer gaming since the middle 80's. Sinclair Z80, Atari 1200XL and Commodore 128. I built my Dad's first computer from parts purchased through the Computer Shopper in 1988 and played many great games from MicroProse including Sid Meiers Civilization at launch.

Back in the day, not only were some of the great games not finished polished products but one needed to be rather expert with memory management and creating and loading custom Config.sys and Autoexec.bat files for each and every game.

I am very happy playing Civ 6 today. Granted it will be a better game in a month or two with the first patch, and upon release of Civ 7 some time in the future, I expect Civ 6 to be regarded as a classic. I am very happy to be playing the actual game "now" rather than reading countless articles or watching videos of beta testers play the game. I am actively participating and not passively watching.

Similarly I have always played the game to fit my personality. I do not comb this forum finding the most optimum strategy and employing all know exploits. Each game is a new story of "my civilization" played my way. Sometimes I'm xenophobic, militaristic and an isolationist. Other times I'm beneficent, mercantile and enlightened.

I'm not saying I'm right and you are wrong but maybe those who are taking a technical, mechanical approach to the game will never be happy or enjoy the game as much as those who try and immerse themselves in the narratives the game offers...
 
I am very happy playing Civ 6 today. Granted it will be a better game in a month or two with the first patch, and upon release of Civ 7 some time in the future, I expect Civ 6 to be regarded as a classic. I am very happy to be playing the actual game "now" rather than reading countless articles or watching videos of beta testers play the game. I am actively participating and not passively watching.

Similarly I have always played the game to fit my personality. I do not comb this forum finding the most optimum strategy and employing all know exploits. Each game is a new story of "my civilization" played my way. Sometimes I'm xenophobic, militaristic and an isolationist. Other times I'm beneficent, mercantile and enlightened.

My thoughts exactly, I'd reached the tipping point of being bored with the endless preview videos on YouTube just prior to release. Many of which had started to treat the game as a mathematical exercise, like it was some kind of historical spreadsheet, switching off unit animation and starting to look for exploits.
 
Oh yeah, imagine having to go through a government regulation bureau to get new gameplay features implemented! Woooo, great idea!

WTH! Why do you insist on involving the government? That's absurd. You just need a simple certification committee to verify the game. Typically having members of many software companies. Like power supplies have the 80plus rating to help have quality control. It's not perfect, but it beats these el cheapo power supplies from blowing up your computer, or having constant stability issues from shiester companies trying to make a quick buck.

HINT: Things would stay precisely the same, but nothing would ever ( officially ) come out of Beta.

You mean like they already are? Heck some are still in beta. Look at Simcity 2013 and that fiasco. It was so broken (alpha at best) it was abandoned and then Maxis dissolved. EA does this continuously.

Having some sort of regulation is better than nothing at all.

It's working pretty good for Microsoft and their Windows Hardware Quality List (WHQL). Now we get significantly better drivers and a lot more stable version of Windows.
 
It has become a trend of sorts, accusing the devs of being incompetent. It requires no thinking to say "do the devs even test the game?" or "do they play their own game at all?" These have been repeated ad nauseam for a week now, throughout the many redundant threads complaining about the same things.

If they had an iota of sense, they'd know that had the devs not test the game, the game most likely wouldn't boot at all. There can and will be issues for each facet of the game included, and the game has many systems. The fact that people keep repeating the same issues means that the issues are contained and limited, proof that the devs did as well as they could during bugtesting. It is mind-boggling to even suggest that one exploit equals lazy developers

The sad fact is, a lot of the criticism can be on point and constructive, if they aren't punctuated by accusations toward the developers.

What you imply is that all devs must be competent because they are devs. And that's not true. The lack of polishing, bugs etc. maybe obviously the budget factor, tmeline factor. But desining complicated systems where the AI cannot process and will not be able to process it's a worng design. Let't take as an example warefare - the design is limiting the AI competency and good code cannot be alomst written (civ5 AI is still terrilbe today). Let's take another example - half of the great peple would need tons of code to process properly. Example - there is a great general which supports you units in certain era and than gives you ironclad. So only for that general there needs to be programmed: first following the fleet, and then when his era ends programing to go back safely with escort home. Lets imagine there is a naval battle with that general (hard too imagine, huh?:)). How large should be escort? Player knows, but AI cannot consider it during that battle - should it go immediatelly with one escort (which will leave battle)? Maybe two? Shall all escort him back, shall it wait untill battle is ended (let's programm now the end of the battle). Is the way back safe and shall we avoid bomarding cities? This is bad design to have it done like here, not the lack of time or budget.

And really the game can be good or bad, and that's fault (when bad) of devs. Time and budget factor polishing. And what is pretty obvious, statements like "have they played the game?" are an exagerration of many people seeing their favorite title in state like that. The industry is like it is but if no one oposes and all give 9.5 to strategy game with completelly incompetent AI, it will be worse.
 
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Civ 5 was really bad at release if i remember correctly. I especially hated that all the tiles had ridiculously low or boring yields and the map scripts were weird. Lots of useless land, you couldn't ever form contiguous empires cuz the good lands werent contiguous.

So far I love Civ 6. The AI are definitely a problem and will need to be improved but honestly the map is gorgeous, I can build empires the way I want and I can form governments dynamically. Overall every new feature (except religion) has been a homerun except those related to AI (agendas, diplomacy in general, warmongering penalties) and I knew that going in cuz I watched the lets plays. Not disappointed in any way, very excited for the potential.
 
Personally, I think it's awesome that there's a community ready to share with the developers the bugs they find in an otherwise outstanding platform. I view the Bugs Report pages not as a place to complain, but a place in which we can let the devs know that they've got a shoe untied or their fly down. It takes a tremendous amount of work to make a game this large, and there's simply no way that it can all be done perfectly without going bankrupt. And guess what? Bankrupt companies don't make games. So if you like the basics of what you see, help them out.
 
I don't think you're stupid, so I'm just going to assume you've never seen alpha software.
I'm a software engineer.

Alpha means feature incomplete. Nothing more, nothing less.

It could be perfectly functional and stable or it could be a bug-ridden hellscape.

Civ6 is straddling the divide at some point, functional but with a large number of game-breaking issues. And, like I said, feature incomplete.
Okay but I'm going to be blunt: I kinda like watching the last 10% or so of development "happen" before my eyes. It's like a variation of early access.

Also, I really don't give nearly a fraction enough of a **** to be a "good consumer." Games are a break from life, not a political cause I'm interested in taking up. It ain't that serious and I really don't care how it's launched so much as I care what the final patch looks like.
Which is certainly a valid stance to take, if one I obviously not share myself.

Certainly if I truly didn't care one way or another and were fine with the status quo, or at the very least current the state of Civ6 in general, I wouldn't be in this thread arguing about it!
 
To me, there's a huge difference between unbalanced features (fast research, growing production costs, gold-selling exploits), and an unfinished game (where it would constantly be crashing, or be completely unplayable due to performance, glitches, or game-breaking features). As people mentioned above, it's not like the game was released in an early-access state.

To me, the fact that I can be playing until 3 AM, can't wait to finish work to get on to playing, etc... shows that it's in a fairly good state right now. It's definitely feature complete - most of us are essentially having trouble figuring out what features are left to include in an expansion, and all the features in the game are perfectly playable and not half-finished. You can argue that there's definitely still work to be done, and I wouldn't be surprised if the developers shared the same. I mean, when you announce a release date 6 months out, for a major title like this, you can't simply push it back by a week if things aren't quite done. And you have to be very careful to not introduce something that crashes the game at the last minute, since anything that literally makes it impossible to play the game is way way way worse than anything that figuratively makes it impossible to play the game.

So maybe you could argue that it's still in a beta-like state, where it's basically ready, but just needs some things fixed up. But most of that can be fixed by some XML tweaks anyways.
 
To me, there's a huge difference between unbalanced features (fast research, growing production costs, gold-selling exploits), and an unfinished game (where it would constantly be crashing, or be completely unplayable due to performance, glitches, or game-breaking features). As people mentioned above, it's not like the game was released in an early-access state.

To me, the fact that I can be playing until 3 AM, can't wait to finish work to get on to playing, etc... shows that it's in a fairly good state right now. It's definitely feature complete - most of us are essentially having trouble figuring out what features are left to include in an expansion, and all the features in the game are perfectly playable and not half-finished. You can argue that there's definitely still work to be done, and I wouldn't be surprised if the developers shared the same. I mean, when you announce a release date 6 months out, for a major title like this, you can't simply push it back by a week if things aren't quite done. And you have to be very careful to not introduce something that crashes the game at the last minute, since anything that literally makes it impossible to play the game is way way way worse than anything that figuratively makes it impossible to play the game.

So maybe you could argue that it's still in a beta-like state, where it's basically ready, but just needs some things fixed up. But most of that can be fixed by some XML tweaks anyways.


I believe that lack of decent AI is disqualifing the game from "finished" criterium. For strategy game that's not minor issue, that huge thing. And it's not that AI behaves not perfeclty in some rare circumstances, it does not work well at all in any area. And this will be strategy game of the year... that's really hillarius:)...

And please, do not give me the example that's better than 5 was. We are discussing this ge and its not finished.
 
Going to a movie costs about $14 in Canada. I have no problem paying $7/hr for movie entertainment. Take the number of hours you've played Civ VI so far and multiple by movie$/hour in your market. Did you get that much fun out of it already? My guess is probably yes.

Another way to look at this is that all of us early adopters are the force that makes the game great over time. One thing that I would like to see game studios do is open up their beta programs wider. What is we all had Civ VI 6 months ago? The feedback and value to the studio would be invaluable and I for one would have put in many many hours of free beta testing time for them. Crowdsourcing game testing (especially a strategy game like Civ) would be a brilliant move by game studios.
 
What you imply is that all devs must be competent because they are devs. And that's not true. The lack of polishing, bugs etc. maybe obviously the budget factor, tmeline factor. But desining complicated systems where the AI cannot process and will not be able to process it's a worng design. Let't take as an example warefare - the design is limiting the AI competency and good code cannot be alomst written (civ5 AI is still terrilbe today). Let's take another example - half of the great peple would need tons of code to process properly. Example - there is a great general which supports you units in certain era and than gives you ironclad. So only for that general there needs to be programmed: first following the fleet, and then when his era ends programing to go back safely with escort home. Lets imagine there is a naval battle with that general (hard too imagine, huh?:)). How large should be escort? Player knows, but AI cannot consider it during that battle - should it go immediatelly with one escort (which will leave battle)? Maybe two? Shall all escort him back, shall it wait untill battle is ended (let's programm now the end of the battle). Is the way back safe and shall we avoid bomarding cities? This is bad design to have it done like here, not the lack of time or budget.

And really the game can be good or bad, and that's fault (when bad) of devs. Time and budget factor polishing. And what is pretty obvious, statements like "have they played the game?" are an exagerration of many people seeing their favorite title in state like that. The industry is like it is but if no one oposes and all give 9.5 to strategy game with completelly incompetent AI, it will be worse.

That claim is bold, and not just because I bolded it. First of all, I don't want to turn this thread into a 1UPT vs SOD debate, since it merits discussion outside of this thread. Most posters here are simply making a statement that not everyone lacks a grasp on what the words "alpha software" and "gamebreaking" mean.

But more importantly, what is more wrong than the design (your subjective opinion) is your belief that the AI will never be able to process 1UPT. It is always possible to code a better AI (objective truth). I raise you the Community Patch to counter your claim about terrible Civ 5 AI. Yes, it is not written by the devs, but by the community. No, that does not invalidate 1UPT. The fact of the matter is, an AI that can process 1UPT competently is already a thing, and if the community can do that, there is no reason to believe that a team of dedicated devs won't do that.

The bigger question is whether they are willing to put their focus on the AI. Civ 6 has another 5 years in its lifespan, and saying that they won't at 2 weeks into its release is nothing short of ridiculous. If you do take a look at Civ 5 patch notes since release, you will see that they had been improving the AI since release.

The fact stands that before the Community Patch, there was no satisfactory AI (and not just in combat, but also in most aspects of the game). But especially in terms of combat and 1UPT, the community was the first one that managed to make it work properly. What I am saying is, there is no point in making conjectures of how Civ 6 AI will (not) be improved based on the devs' track record of improving the AI during Civ 5's lifetime. Back then, the devs had to roll out patches that not only addressed the AI, but also prepare assets and ideas for expansion packs and other sorts of content, which Civ 5 vanilla was severely lacking. And there was no good example on how to code the AI for 1UPT.

The Community Patch was created by a team of volunteers who did not have to bother with creating new assets (not much anyway) or addressing the UI problems (the EUI team got that covered). Through their labor, for the first time we see how incredible 1UPT is as a combat system in single player, once the AI learned to be threatening with their maneuvers (not that the merits of 1UPT were not obvious to people who played multiplayer, but I digress). And this is where Civ 6 and Civ 5 differ. Whereas Civ 5 created 1UPT completely without any prior insight on how to make the AI work with it, Civ 6 continued 1UPT in circumstances where a good AI for 1UPT already exists. And thus, while your claim might have been reasonable 6 years ago, it is not at the present.

So if a good AI already exists, why didn't the dev just port them from Civ 6? Well, most probably because while a lot of features were derived from Civ 5 BNW, it does not change the fact that Civilization 6 is an entirely new game. Aside from developing the obvious assets for the game, they have to code the AI to handle the many changes, such as city planning, new builder mechanics, etc. The AI is not particularly doing well right now, 1UPT or not. They sometimes fail to use their Great Persons, or to weigh the merits of diplomatic actions properly.

Will the developers make improving the AI their focus? Not sure, but it is highly likely. Civ 6 is more feature-complete than any vanilla Civ game ever released in the past, and therefore the devs can theoretically spend less time adding new features and spend more time fine-tuning it.. A fair criticism of the developers' competency can only be made if they refuse to improve on this highly criticized aspect of the game during its lifespan. And that lifespan is not 2 weeks.
 
That claim is bold, and not just because I bolded it. First of all, I don't want to turn this thread into a 1UPT vs SOD debate, since it merits discussion outside of this thread. Most posters here are simply making a statement that not everyone lacks a grasp on what the words "alpha software" and "gamebreaking" mean.

But more importantly, what is more wrong than the design (your subjective opinion) is your belief that the AI will never be able to process 1UPT. It is always possible to code a better AI (objective truth). I raise you the Community Patch to counter your claim about terrible Civ 5 AI. Yes, it is not written by the devs, but by the community. No, that does not invalidate 1UPT. The fact of the matter is, an AI that can process 1UPT competently is already a thing, and if the community can do that, there is no reason to believe that a team of dedicated devs won't do that.

The bigger question is whether they are willing to put their focus on the AI. Civ 6 has another 5 years in its lifespan, and saying that they won't at 2 weeks into its release is nothing short of ridiculous. If you do take a look at Civ 5 patch notes since release, you will see that they had been improving the AI since release.

The fact stands that before the Community Patch, there was no satisfactory AI (and not just in combat, but also in most aspects of the game). But especially in terms of combat and 1UPT, the community was the first one that managed to make it work properly. What I am saying is, there is no point in making conjectures of how Civ 6 AI will (not) be improved based on the devs' track record of improving the AI during Civ 5's lifetime. Back then, the devs had to roll out patches that not only addressed the AI, but also prepare assets and ideas for expansion packs and other sorts of content, which Civ 5 vanilla was severely lacking. And there was no good example on how to code the AI for 1UPT.

The Community Patch was created by a team of volunteers who did not have to bother with creating new assets (not much anyway) or addressing the UI problems (the EUI team got that covered). Through their labor, for the first time we see how incredible 1UPT is as a combat system in single player, once the AI learned to be threatening with their maneuvers (not that the merits of 1UPT were not obvious to people who played multiplayer, but I digress). And this is where Civ 6 and Civ 5 differ. Whereas Civ 5 created 1UPT completely without any prior insight on how to make the AI work with it, Civ 6 continued 1UPT in circumstances where a good AI for 1UPT already exists. And thus, while your claim might have been reasonable 6 years ago, it is not at the present.

So if a good AI already exists, why didn't the dev just port them from Civ 6? Well, most probably because while a lot of features were derived from Civ 5 BNW, it does not change the fact that Civilization 6 is an entirely new game. Aside from developing the obvious assets for the game, they have to code the AI to handle the many changes, such as city planning, new builder mechanics, etc. The AI is not particularly doing well right now, 1UPT or not. They sometimes fail to use their Great Persons, or to weigh the merits of diplomatic actions properly.

Will the developers make improving the AI their focus? Not sure, but it is highly likely. Civ 6 is more feature-complete than any vanilla Civ game ever released in the past, and therefore the devs can theoretically spend less time adding new features and spend more time fine-tuning it.. A fair criticism of the developers' competency can only be made if they refuse to improve on this highly criticized aspect of the game during its lifespan. And that lifespan is not 2 weeks.

Thank you for your answer. I played community balance patch and with no doubts the warefare AI is significantly improved, as all the other aspects. Thanks to community (I praise their work and effort greatly), they made really very good game. I will not discuss 1upt vs. multiple units per tile, as you are right, this is not the topic. I will also leave my opinion on wrong design. But I cannot really agree that having a strategy (!!!) game without functioning AI is not a reason to very strong critics. As I said, this are not minor bugs in rare situations, AI is just not working well in every area. And as you said, there is the experience from modders and previous game, thus why it is not used (not even a try). My words on not working AI in 5 were aimed at the base game, not modded, thus I believe I have the reasons to criticize devs on not improving AI. Thus that is why I have similar doubts on the 6 being improved by devs. I know that probably 90% likes the game like it is, but there is 10% which notices, as you said, not satisfactory AI. Thus I really believe that there should be at least much more cautiousnes in giving the great marks to the game which only may be great (even if you believe that AI will be improved, bugs corrected, etc., you cannot really be sure that the whole gameplay will be great). I hold my criticism as the game is far from being the experience I'd like to have, and having the experience from 5 I just put my hope rather in modders to "make the game great again'.
 
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Thank you for your answer. I played community balance patch and with no doubts the warefare AI is significantly improved, as all the other aspects. Thanks to community (I praise their work and effort greatly), they made really very good game. I will not discuss 1upt vs. multiple units per tile, as you are right, this is not the topic. I will also leave my opinion on wrong design. But I cannot really agree that having a strategy (!!!) game without functioning AI is not a reason to very strong critics. As I said, this are not minor bugs in rare situations, AI is just not working well in every area. And as you said, there is the experience from modders and previous game, thus why it is not used (not even a try). My words on not working AI in 5 was aimed at the base game, not modded, thus I believe I have the reasons to criticize devs on not improving AI. Thus that is why I have similar doubts on the 6 being improved by devs. I know that probably 90% likes the game like it is, but there is 10% which notices, as you said, not satisfactory AI. Thus I really believe that there should be at least much more cautiousnes in giving the great marks to the game which only may be great (even if you believe that AI will be improved, bugs corrected, etc., you cannot really be sure that the whole gameplay will be great). I hold my criticism as the game is far from being the experience I'd like to have, and having the experience from 5 I have just put my hope rather in modders to improve the game.
I would say that Civ 5 BNW is rather acceptable (although not great by any means) in terms of the combat AI. Indeed, it doesn't hold a candle to the improvements made by the community. Still, it shows that the devs are willing to put in work in the AI to make the experience enjoyable. I am putting in hopes that the devs would learn from the CBP team about ways to improve 1UPT in particular, since this example was not available to them during much of the lifetime of Civ 5. Now that the community has shown the extent to which the AI can utilize 1UPT, the devs may have more to base their future patches on.

The developers did take inspirations from the CBP, I believe, seeing as they revamped the City State system to be less a game of instant bribery and more a game of long-term investment (and there I say, they implemented it better than the Great Diplomats of the CBP, although there is room to improve). If the developers take a page from the community's efforts, I'd say that the improvements in combat AI will be more significant than in Civ 5.

Although it is true that the AI is lacking in other departments as well currently, I hope that likewise they will be improved by the time the next expansion arrives.
 
As people mentioned above, it's not like the game was released in an early-access state.
...
So maybe you could argue that it's still in a beta-like state, where it's basically ready, but just needs some things fixed up.
Unfortunately we're going to have to agree to disagree.

I honestly cannot fathom the leniency shown here because the game is, in its current state, very much the definition of early access. It's not like we're short on some tile yields and UU/UA tweaks and then we're done. Many of the core systems of the game don't work, that's a bit past the acceptable.

Pico 22's car analogy earlier in the thread is particularly apt, it's like people are unwilling to see that they're holding computer games to a significantly lower standard than any other consumer product.
 
Unfortunately we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Pico 22's car analogy earlier in the thread is particularly apt, it's like people are unwilling to see that they're holding computer games to a significantly lower standard than any other consumer product.

And this is a problem mainly of strategy games. Other genres more often lacks polising (with obviously some expetions, where others do not work completely as well). We receive very often strategy games where many systems and features are just not working. Imagine shooter, where you have got bunch new weapons and even jetpack. But grenade luncher deals barely no damage, pistols are more powerful than machine guns and jetpack flies only to left side. This is unacceptable it other games, but we accept that kind of faults in strategy games at launch. We tend to say that jetpack and grenade luncher are really great additions and when patched this will be a great game.

The problem lies in lower popularity of strategies. Producers know, that even not finished game will be sold becasue there is not much competition. I can think of there just one bigger 4x title this year, Stellaris, but what if you don not like space games (by the way, pretty decent game after last patches and expansion, but terrible at launch). But imagine that Battlefield is so far from finishing when lunched? There is Call of Duty realease every year, and many other games where you can run and shoot. They are working and Battlefield would loose it's popularity, or people would just skip that one iteration. This is not the case wih strategies, most strategy (or Civilization) fans will buy the game on the realease, some will wait when it's patched (but still will buy). So sadly, we can just complain, we can not vote with wallets.
 
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AI is still terrible though. I was enjoying the game until I realized it was too easy. Then I move up to King and I realize the AI is too stupid.
 
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