[BTS] IMMaw with Alex the Great

[Tobiyogi]

Another contribution to the Immortal Always War series:

Playing as Alexander from Greece (AGG/PHI), on 875 land tiles (good!), tropical climate and medium sea level, Immortal AW with 6 opponents, no tech trading (you can change that in the scenario screen), no huts & events.
The random script map promises 3 things:
- we are on the largest continent
- it's no Pangea
- it's no Archipalego

So there will be some folks to mess with and judging from the screenie, we can produce a freaking early Great Spy!

Enjoy this challenge, i have already played a couple of turns and i like it.

Additional challenge? Show the world that Philosophy and Aggression can go together and that war doesn't need to exclude cultural achievements.

- Discover philosophy (don't steal it!)
- Found a religion
- Build 3 Odeons
- Bring one city to legendary status! (if you or the others survive long enough)

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Interesting !
Pre-game thought : there could be a consideration for a Mathematics bulb, here.
Alex is PHI and Maths is a pre-requisite to Construction, which, with Greece, means Odeons (+3 happies is... good ?).

Do we need to add techs to barbarians with the worldbuilder save ? What techs ?

 

[Tobiyogi]

I suppose the techs will be gone when you open the save, so you need to add hunt/arch/agriculture. I usually give them Mysticism as well, because it makes me smile when Barbs produce culture and get border pops

 

[Tobiyogi]

1. gp will certainly be a spy, the set-up invites for the TGW play.... i also thought of maths here with the 1. scientist

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I don't know, if there is copper, I'd rather use the production for Phalanxes. The Pyramids can be built later and could be good.
I don't think The Great Wall is an auto-include... Although... sure, it's good. Just don't set your mind on it from t0. Re-evaluate as the game goes on. See what scouting brings

 

[Tobiyogi]

You're right, when civ 4 player see stone they say "The mids!" and when AW player see stone they say "Great Wall!"
There was a point where i decided to go for TGW, so it was at least a semi-conscious decision. But i am not completely objective here

 

[Tobiyogi]

The general idea for this map is not to get caught by the war totally, but also to keep in mind that we want to produce something that lasts in time, we are Alexander the Great after all! We can use several leverages for our cultural expansion (Odeon, Great People, perhaps a holy city....).
Always War tends to be an endless destruction, we want to approach this a bit differently and w/o having intended this, our map here allows for different playstyles. and

 

[Fippy]

Sooo clearly SIP, stone phs are not good enuf

 

[Tobiyogi]

Hey BiC, i have replayed my opening, this time not so blindly focused on TGW, i think it's better to get those scientists for sure and to invest the hammers into expansion.
Besides that, what could such an early GSpy do for me else than scouting (and possibly DoWing other civs unnecessarily)?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Hey, good to hear you're trying out different things.
The Great Wall's pay off comes very late : either it's the GG bonus when they start invading you with stacks (turn 65 for first smallish stacks ? turn 100 for more real ones ?) ; or it's the espionnage boost and that comes into play even later (in the Shaka map, Feudalism turn 150...)...
... So I think it's natural that the opening would be stronger without TGW.

The question is : is the opening strong enough to miss out on the Great Wall later on ?
I haven't opened the map, yet, so I cannot say - I can tell Athens is good but the quality of cities 2-4 makes a strong opening. I mentionned copper and Pyramids as options that could make TGW unnecessary. Having No Tech Trades on also decreases the use of TGW, since it's more likely Player can maintain tech parity or get a lead.

 

[Tobiyogi]

It is defenitely a map where lots of different approaches can be done. Last but not least, our traits PHI and AGG makes it quite versatile. In my 3rd opening, i built a barracks and 2-3 warriors first, then only my 1st worker (while teching towards BW and whip the worker). The warriors became woody II in no time and choking was at its best. Even TGW can fit in, when the opening is strong. When i don't manage to steal a worker though, it might be difficult, i will need hammers for workers then. Depends a bit on luck also.

Edit: I even built 4-5 warriors before first worker. All of them survived to Woody II, in one case even double choking and trapping workers was possible.

 

[Tobiyogi]

I committed to my own challenges here, founded Taoism, raised the culture in Athens at least up to 10.000 (without a great work so far), built three odeons (even if not needed everywhere), but in 1560 AD, i had to surrender to enemy invasion on my continent. Despite a very strong opening, my foes eventually recovered and ruined my day. My obvious mistake: I could not take someone out very early, besides the choking. I suppose the AW strategy must be as followed: choke someone and prepare asap for an actual invasion.

Spoiler :

This is partly due to a lack of early strategic resources. Could not prevent Boudica eternally from getting copper so she has earlier access to metal than me. Gallic warriors are also a huge pain in the ass, when fortified on her hill cities.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Spoiler Thoughts on AI bonuses :

What really shocked me: I went very early over the "Channel" and razed two of Napoleons coastal/jungle cities with Axes/Swords. Also went for Paris and could take it, but decided not to keep it because he was blocking it with 5 triremes, so i would never get trade routes out of it. So I razed his capitol and two other cities, destroyed a couple of cottages in his remaining territory and despite everything, he was one of those who invaded me later with knights and trebs! This is not even possible, because he was literally dead.

 

[Gumbolt]

Thoughts

Spoiler Up to 1070ad :

I think early IW and a choke approach works here. Didn't do it great as I ignored one of the Ai. I did opt for archery before IW for defences.

Managed to wipe out the Celts and took 4-5 of their cities. Mainly used swords and phalanx.

Same for Incans. Pillaged his metal and eventually took all his cities. Stole myst with a spy. Captured TGLH. I now have 7-8 island cities.

French were probably more of a threat as you realised. I landed quite a few melee troops and took out his 2 weakly defended coastal town. Attacked by sea on first as it had trireme in the city. (Trireme were a real pain here!!) I had to whip /build / of these as my coast was in complete lockdown. I let him attack then and this worked quite well. If he won I killed the trireme with another unit. He still has 7-8 of them left.

I gradually landed my entire force on his land mass. 10-12 units. I got catapult units across just in time. Took Lyon and Paris. Also taken his 2 other main cities. By which point he had LB/HA/catapults. By this stage I had about 9-10 catapults and about 9-10 melee.

He has about 5 or so cities left. Happy to lose a few catapult per city. My troops are not very well promoted but seem to be taking his cities. Without iron I should be fine for a while.

Up to 21 cities. I fear the AI elsewhere will be much more advanced. Need to keep French reduced down to 3-4 cities. If he has no metal or horse it will make life easier.

As for Paris I would of kept this. As road will connect it to other side of his island. At which point you have 2 trade routes. Unless you captured TGLH

Overall I have a few forges and I have had to whip courthouses as costs were 14-15+ in 6-7 cities. Paris was -20 or so.

.

 

[Gumbolt]

Small update

Spoiler Hmmm up to 1200ad or so. :

French had about 5-6 more cities that I knew of. I have captured or razed most of them. He has a size 9 city left on the island. If he starts sending out galleys with settlers it will take a lot more work. Not sure he will.

Just met one AI and I am way behind in tech. Albeit soon I can run a golden age and focus on some naval defences.

My strategy now is not to meet anyone else till they find me.

Finally my nation can have some peace time and a golden age. Need to steal monarchy off AI before I do that.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Hey @Gumbolt good to see that you are doing fine on this map. I think the starting position is decent enough to make some progress here.

However, i came to see that ImmAW is a bit too tough for me, even if i tried several times with different settings and sometimes almost perfect land. I also played the Shaka "Bernus" map at least 5 times. The AI on this level is consistent enough to escape from my choking one way or the other and always ends up finding metal/elephants, etc... and then they really start to abuse their production bonuses.
Sure, I can survive long time on these maps (even on Pangea) but around 1500 AD (usually the time when they begin to stack Knights/Trebs) it's game over. Especially when Knights begin to plunder my backland.

I rolled an almost perfect random AW map these days: it was (unrestricted) Hannibal of the Khmer, the "Real Hannibal" so to speak and the land was flooded with Ivory and AH resources. But it was a Pangea again and hardly defendable. And no Rome to attack.... I will keep that in mind though and try to post a "Real Hannibal" map where you can attack Romans across the Alpes and I will attach a WB save so everyone can choose the appropriate level. I feel most comfortable on EMP.

After quite a lot of these AW games now, I would claim that CHA is probably the best trait here. Boudica, Hannibal, Cyrus = perfect leaders, de Gaulle + Nappy are strong as well, Brennus + Churchill can be also kept in mind. With Boudica, it is not unusual to get a couple of Combat V melee units really early and you win 4 out of 5 fights here.
Not so convinced of PHI on the other hand, bulbing and Academy are much less powerful than normally. And 2 - 3 Golden Ages should be possible anyway. With Ivory I would definitely bulb math.

Edit: If not playing Unrestricted, I would say Cyrus has the upper hand here depending on if there are horses in reach.

 

[Tobiyogi]

btw what was your approach to wonders here @Gumbolt ? Did you go for the obvious TGW or later the Pyramids?

 

[Gumbolt]

Didn't build any early wonders. Maybe I should of tried for the great wall. Starting techs for Greeks are not great. I captured the Great lighthouse and Stonehenge. You need a lot of forest to try and choke an AI. Not always possible on this map.

Not really had a chance to play this on. Lots going on in life. I am really worried about naval invasions here. Given how backwards I am tech wise.

 

[Harv]

Starting techs for Greeks are not great.

This is what I am finding out!

 

[Tobiyogi]

Normally rather weak starting techs but on this map quite decent imo. You only need to tech Agri+Bw here and your worker(s) will be busy for quite a while.