Immigration

[mystikx21]

I'd agree it's a useful effect because of the historical flavor and value, but the implementation is tricky. Tying it to tourism might be more manageable than to happiness, but if there are now tourism benefits throughout the game, then it's not clear we need it.

There's also the matter that it isn't really under your control in a clear way, when societies have often approached migrants with suspicion and restriction and constrained the ability of people of some location to come at all, "happiness" advantages or no and that isn't really included in the model either. Ideologically I think that's not a sensible idea for countries to be doing or to have done, but in game play terms, being able to focus on expansion instead of growth or on golden ages instead of taking in immigration matters.

You can get to familiar or popular pretty early on to provide some benefit. The benefits would be much less than later game, but just cutting the unrest and population loss or adding a few science from trade routes early on is not nothing. The immigration mechanic described above wouldn't have added much until around the same time in game terms in my estimation (renaissance or medieval say mostly).

 

[lockstep]

If we want to encourage going wide when playing as America, how about less unhappiness per city?

Does tourism benefits do still all seem to be late game, as you're unlikely to receive any high level before, no?

I'd say mid game, as the bonuses start kicking in when you're at "Familiar" (your tourism is 30% of other civ's culture). One could mod this to start at "Exotic" (10%).

 

[Ahriman]

I think tourism is very specifically supposed to be a late game mechanic. That is key to the whole design of BNW, making the late game more interesting. I think it is a mistake to try and make tourism something that is important throughout the whole game. It goes against the gameplay design of BNW, and its ahistoric (mass tourism is a 20th century phenomenon).

If something is added extra to tourism, it shouldn't be moving citizens around. It could interact with gold or culture or something, but it should work with the existing mechanics rather than overriding them.

I also think it is helpful to lay out the design for a new mechanic, along with the rationale, so it can be discussed, before adding it to the mod.

 

[EricB]

I believe we should try to keep the game as close as possible to the core BNW game only adding new features if there is a glaring need for it and widespread agreement. There's nothing broken in the game's core mechanics requiring the immigration feature. It's a neat idea, but really causes more harm than good.

As for America's unique ability, we all pretty much agree that the B-17 unit is pretty lame so replacing it with the NASA building is a good idea. I do think the Free Tech from each building is too powerful, so in my version of the mod I delete that effect and add some extra production instead. So it's really a research lab that gives lots of science and some production, particularly for building spaceship parts.

It's nice if a civilization has a unique unit and also a unique building, unless that civilization is a warmongering civilization. In that case two unique units is good.

As for America's unique ability, a good starting point is what's in the game by default. Extra vision for units and cheaper plot buying. This is good for scouting and quick land grabbing. I've experimented with adding a free smith in every American city. It's okay. It lets you ramp up production very early, but I may try something else. I'd like it to be something that goes well with the NASA building and/or rapid expansion. Maybe using the defaults (extra sight and plot buying) and adding a free worker and scout to start the game. The scout would replace the warrior, so you'd get a settler, scout, and worker at turn 1. This would let you really scout out the best land very early (since they'd still have extra sight) along with getting some farms/pastures/mines/etc up and running really quickly. Might give that a try.

 

[mystikx21]

I'd say we can move the immigration/US UA discussion back to the leaders thread at this point.

It may be useful to revive this thread as a mod-mod effect, that is more balanced and more manageable (eg, controlled), as something fun or different off the main mod. But I'm not sure we established what to do with it and the fall patch looks to be addressing at least one of the concerns for bringing into play in the first place.

 

[skodkim]

What did you like about it? How did it make you play differently?

First of all I liked the mechanics - the historical feeling. It has, as Thal pointed out, been an important part of the development of countries, regions, cities, etc.

Second I knew that I had to pay more attention to happiness if I wanted to avoid my pop from leaving - or to get pop from other civs.

I think the idea is good as long as it only occurs once in a while, e.g. a little chance per turn followed by a cooldown period before it could happen Again (Emigration mod works this way).

\Skodkim

 

[Myrion]

All the necessary bits have already been mentioned:
a) America is meant to be wide
b) Wide doesn't want free population
c) Wide doesn't want internal population movement
d) Tourism is late game
e) Immigration should be late game
f) Immigration should be rare
g) Immigration should happen for every civ
h) America has received a lot of real-life great persons due to immigration that helped in the space race

Put together that would mean:
Immigration only becomes active if an empire is at least at the "Familiar" level of influence.
Immigration only becomes active if the influenced empire is unhappy.
Immigration only happens very rarely - at familiar the first pop is allowed, at popular the second, influential the third, dominant the last.
Immigration has no negative effect on relations with other civs.
America does NOT get population from immigration but instead great person points (amount depending on size of map, game speed (less points on larger map so you don't benefit too much from many civs) to a random type of GP (favoring GE and GS).

 

[Ahriman]

But I'm not sure we established what to do with it and the fall patch looks to be addressing at least one of the concerns for bringing into play in the first place.

Agreed, they're already adding a few more effects from tourism influence.

 

[EricB]

Put together that would mean:
Immigration only becomes active if an empire is at least at the "Familiar" level of influence.
Immigration only becomes active if the influenced empire is unhappy.
Immigration only happens very rarely - at familiar the first pop is allowed, at popular the second, influential the third, dominant the last.
Immigration has no negative effect on relations with other civs.
America does NOT get population from immigration but instead great person points (amount depending on size of map, game speed (less points on larger map so you don't benefit too much from many civs) to a random type of GP (favoring GE and GS).

As much as I've disliked the whole immigration effect, I'd be perfectly fine with something like this. If it's in the game, it should be a late game effect and have a very small number of immigrants moving around. Gaining 1 population once your civilization becomes 'exotic' then 2 at 'familiar' etc would be a good balance. Then tourism does something, which is what many of you were wanting. I still don't like the idea of an immigrant arriving every X number of turns.

No probabilities of getting an immigrant based on happiness or anything like that. Make it simple. You get 1 immigrant from a given civilization once you gain 'exotic' influence, then more immigrants as you move up the influence levels with tourism. It would be small and late game.

As for America's unique ability, it shouldn't have anything to do with this mechanic. You shouldn't be forced into playing a tourism game with America. America should be something else entirely.

 

[Ahriman]

As placeholders for the US, I'd suggest putting them back to "American dream" +1 happy per city, with the pioneer fort, and the NASA center (but adjusted to +X beakers rather than free tech).

 

[nbrebol]

It might make immigration a bit more interesting if it were not just simply a population moving mechanic. As it is in the game, the only benefit is a faster growing civ, while the cost is decrease in happiness (due to overcrowding). In the real world, the issues surrounding immigration are much more complex. I was thinking that it would add complexity if, everytime a citizen moved cities, you could make decisions regarding how to deal with the immigration (or emmigration), along the same lines as the opportunities feature in GEM. Immigration could be made as rare or frequently as needed for game balance but there would be more to it that just population shifting.

 

[Thalassicus]

If you feel expansion is more uniquely American than immigration, what are your reasons for this?

I figure many civs in history were expansionist like England, Rome, the Mongols, and so on. Unlike those other civilizations, most people in America today are immigrants or descendents of immigrants. It feels more unique than simply having a big empire.

If you want America to have expansion bonuses, but not other big civs like the Mongols, what's the difference? I'm trying to understand.

 

[ExpiredReign]

Is it possible to have the option to deny immigration from happening?
Perhaps a popup message like the "Opportunities" from GEM.
"A group of immigrants arrive at %City% hoping to settle..."
You can deny their applications or welcome them. Or some other option to cruel to mention.
Or have it only happen automatically from nations with whom we have open border arrangements?
Also, as another thread got me thinking, what happens if we are the happiest/most cultural/tourism strong nation but we are at war? Do migrants really want to move to nation at war?
As it is I am ambivalent to the change. I can see the upside but at the moment all I experience is the downside.

 

[EricB]

I agree that Immigration is a key aspect of the American civilization historical. It just doesn't play well in the game due to the happiness constraints on expansion. It forces you to go tall with a few big cities when historically America is a nation that is very spread out with wide open spaces and low population density. I'm a history buff too, so I get it. If there's a way to fit it in then that would be very good.

What about something that gives America an advantage with early population growth. What about a unique ability that gives a bit less unhappiness per city and also each newly founded city starting off with 2 citizens instead of 1 citizen? That would model the Immigration mechanic pretty well with new cities gaining population from immigration.

It wouldn't be overpowering because it's a 1 shot effect. It would encourage playing wide with America and push that extra population out to the frontiers. Less unhappiness per city would offset the extra initial population unhappiness. Just a thought for a unique ability...

 

[Ahriman]

If you feel expansion is more uniquely American than immigration, what are your reasons for this?

My problem is not a flavor perspective, my problem is a gameplay one. Literally moving citizens around between cities breaks the core economy mechanics, where growth comes from excess food, and where the marginal food cost of each citizen increases dramatically with city size. It is also really not fun to have your citizens stolen away when you weren't doing anything wrong.

I'm fine with immigration flavor, but this is modeled much more effectively if you go through the existing mechanics (eg food bonuses) rather than by adding a new mechanic that starts moving citizens around. For example, the US could have an Immigration Office UB that replaces the Hospital, giving a much larger growth bonus. This models the industrial era US immigration boom.

And the other gameplay problem is what Eric mentions, where it encourages you to play with just a few giant supercities.

 

[ExpiredReign]

I'm curious as to why KillMePlease's (upon which this is based) current version of the Emigrate mod has custom right hand side notifications and additional in city information about the prospect and requirements for immigration and we don't.

Can we not include his code base and tweak from that?

One addition I think might alleviate some feelings with this mod is to require an active trade route to allow immigration from/to that civ.

As it stands now it is a bit hit/miss.
I just contacted Indonesia and apparently he is struggling with Assyria. Next turn without so much of a "hello would you like to exchange embassies" his citizens started moving to my empire. I am playing as Brazil.