Immortal Challenge! Lonely Stalin in the Jungle.

[Civahaulic]

Hello all. First I'd like to thank the Immortal University crew for getting my game up to where I can somewhat consistently win at Immortal.

But when it comes to this type of game, I have no idea how to win. The settings are Fractal, Normal, Stalin selected as leader. Lucky huts are off.

See the attached for the save.

Here's a preview:

This is a particular type of start that I just have no idea how to tackle. You can probably guess from the title, but I rarely see this type of start played out in immortal U type games.

So - I'm looking for tech paths and build strategies. Standard updates (like 1000 BC, 0, liberalism. . . etc.)

The gauntlet has been thrown.

Good luck fellow civ fans!

 

[Civahaulic]

Really? no one is up for this?

I'm kinda surprised. Maybe it's just not winnable . . .

 

[Fleme]

I'd venture a guess that you might get a better response to such challenges on the Strategy forum.

 

[Lyoncet]

I would just like to point out that this thread is the only thread in google's cache that includes the phrase "Stalin in the jungle."

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Even I'm not instant. I just noticed this. I'll probably give it a run. Opening depends on what we have other than fish. Scout SW will tell us. I will probably settle in place, however. 3F tile with a commerce makes growing to 2 to get a worker tech less painful, and waterfront may lead to GLH or colossus (with copper + IND). We'll see.

Edit: I'll narrate the opening in spoilers.

Spoiler :

- Scout SW. Nothing? There's got to be a food resource to the west...we're likely sitting near strategic resources (RNG rules). Settle in place. Pigs!
- I opt for a slower micro start to allow better scouting, and open up w/ a warrior while growing. This also requires less thought and I am sick right now. AH first ---> pig is better than fish. Probably fishing/BW after
- Get warrior t10. Start on a worker
- t13 AH in, going BW. This will keep worker busy, allow a speed expansion if I see a wonder resource, reveal copper which we have a decent chance to get.
- Fish/wheat and pig/clam are both good cities to the east, but this can be combined into an utterly ridiculous super GP farm too. Enough to feed 6 specs on just those tiles...if we want early lib, we can have it.
- t18 Isolation is pretty obvious now.
- t22 worker out, heading for pigs. Start on a warrior. I've found stone but it's reasonably far away. It is 0 factor on henge/wall, possibly could help mids with sailing. If I want gwall I probably have to skip fishing in favor of masonry at first, but then go sailing. Settling on stone could then net mids, but a lot can go wrong. I'll mull on it
- t23 more ivory. The only resource I see right now (possibly calendar in jungle in middle of island yet). This is a - for pyramids, we won't grow much in rep.
- t25 2nd warrior out. We're going to skip gwall, consider oracle. To do this, we need to make sure we can survive barbs.
- t27 human barbs start appearing
- t28 no copper eh...start on fishing. Not phishing, fishing.
- t31 3rd warrior out. moving into the fog also. Isolation is verified 100% by the way.
- t34 fishing in. I decide to attempt an oracle
- t51 barb archer badly hampering me settling a site. I need to get 2 warriors over there and the terrain is bad. I haven't lost anything to it yet other than turns however.
- t54 it dies after entering my borders and attacking a warrior in the forest. settle super gp farm and instantly hook fish.
- t60 SH goes VERY late...to me! I was going to just take $$$ for it but actually getting it is convenient too.
- t69 oracle (monarchy). *very* unlucky with barbs. Archers killing hill jungle cover warriors x2. That's absurd to happen twice. A fortified hill/jungle cover warrior is 135% str (25% hill, 50% jungle, 25% cover, 25% fortify, 10% combat). Give me an effing break game. That's >4 str. > 90% odds. Losing 2 of those within 10 turns? But I still haven't lost a tile. City expansion is painfully slow however. Going wheel/pottery, at least I can grow now. This is going to be a slow cottage game with 1 city bulbing, 1-2 on hammers, and the rest cottages. Trades will be crucial as will diplo.
- t79 with much difficulty and a barb city helping we've got the island locked down with warriors.
- t83 pottery in, heading for IW
- t89 city #3 settled in the middle of the jungle. SH will get us a border pop for the ivory.
- t90 prophet settled in moscow
- t97 city #4 is flood plains + wheat. We're a border pop (2 turns) away from blocking barb galleys from spawning forever.
- t98 IW in, going writing. Moscow has iron...convenient. I won't hook it up right away until I get some cheap warrior garrisons going.
- t103 writing in, going sailing then CoL for some GPP spam.
- t108 city #5 settled for fish on the south end of the island.
- t124 (225 AD) CoL in, going math ----> civil service as my capitol is pop 14 and heavily cottaged, and the rest of the land is developing. I revolt into caste.
- t131 math in
- t136 very late but academy in capitol
- t140 great generals dying in combat...this could be a very good or bad thing
- t144 finally settle city 6 (inland lots of hills + ivory)
- t146 civil service ---> revolt bureaucracy. Research alpha just in case because taoism hasn't gone yet.
- t148 the barb city galley drops 2 archers next to my fish city. Good thing I've been spamming HR warriors, and it's on a hill.
- t149 city #7 (stone + wheat) settled.
- t153 the warriors scared the galley drop off but back it comes...
- t155 Currency in, going for optics. If taoism is still around next turn I'm bulbing for it.
- t156 (920 AD). Amazing. This must be some kind of warmonger map. I bulb philo and found taoism. I switch to head toward liberalism ---> if tao hasn't gone yet I still have a shot at it. Also, revolt tao + pacifism.
- t159 City #8 settled. Ivory/iron on east coast.
- t170 bulb 1/2 of education
- t172 I hook up iron since I might want swords or maces to take the barb city.
- t175 First AI met is wang kon. he is ahead in tech but lacks education. As of 1150, lib is still available.

I'm going to eat dinner now, will finish this later.

 

[Kid R]

I'm going scout NW then NE hoping for more seafood. Nice hammer site 1NE if there's any more food up there.

 

[Monsterzuma]

Probably settle 1 NE for some extra hills. Stalin wants to rush!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Continuation (meeting other AI)

Spoiler :

t 178 Napoleon. He *instantly* requests paper. I have to gamble and concede. I really hate this mechanic that drives a disadvantage (isolation) even worse. The AI will hack to detect this, but if I refuse he could go instant war mode.
t 190 (1300 AD!) I take nationalism from liberalism. Going towards astro saving GS.
t 196 Wang circumnavigates
t 198 Unlock heroic epic on barb city
t 199 Barb city captured (it got longbows *this* turn, but only one damaged one remained)
t 206 Optics
t 213 Met lincoln, who has map hacked to detect a trade with his worst enemy, probably from nap's demand of paper earlier. CAN WE KEEP THE GAME FROM CHEATING HERE PLEASE? Anyway he's smaller than me and less advanced at least.
t 214 tao shrine
t 218 (1540 AD) astronomy. Going democracy.
t 229 Met asoka...master of capitulated tokugawa?! In a divergence he is instantly pleased with me due to civics.
t 235 Met sitting bull. Another worst enemy map hack. Gift 20 gold, trade for econ (I'm doing a lot of trading).
t 237 democracy. I use a GS on a golden age, going US/FS/Eman/FM/FR
t 243 Nobody seems to be going culture, low global tech pace, and everyone hates nappy (nobody can really declare on me). I opt to head for UB ASAP. Possibly I can win peaceful space.
t 261 Starting to look like Asoka is running away in tech. I am considering taking out nappy + lincoln as a result, or alternatively getting ready to nuke + raze a lot of indian cities. It's going to be a tough game. I am far ahead of nappy + lincoln, a bit behind the others, and significantly behind india.

Toku is garbage. He capped to asoka after losing a single city.

I'm a bit sick so I will cut it off here for now. I'll probably think about it and go to bed. A war on the eastern continent needs to be done fast enough to consolidate and prep for asoka before he wins space (keeping an eye on wang too). I have heroic epic and a # of hammer cities, but it will be a struggle to field units in time.

Alternatively, I could just try to race him. His capitol is coastal, so if I needed to do it 1 transport + 6-8 tactical nukes would cut a space race even if he was ahead. Still, this route will be hard if he gets internet first, which is looking likely (the middle of the pack techers don't want to trade).

The final option is to go for him first. Fission + rocketry + radio + flight (trade everything but fission for the flight line). This could completely spank him as long as I can set it up before he gets SDI and he doesn't abuse inexplicably nuke-immune executives to protect his cities. I haven't checked carefully but I believe it would be possible to kill him in 1 turn potentially. This would leave his vassal toku and a LOT of angry AIs, but they'd need time to regroup and plot a war vs me, and by then I could pre-empt nukes again. Probably wouldn't win though.

If asoka got into a war on his own continent I'd just gift tac nukes but he won't. He will only target nappy right now.

Basically I'm not doing too badly, but we got the unfortunate scenario of 1 big, tech strong AI. I think a *fast* war on nap/lincoln + attempt UN is the best odds of victory, backstabbing him with nukes if necessary.

View attachment Coco Puffs AD-1755.CivBeyondSwordSave

View attachment Coco Puffs AD-0225.CivBeyondSwordSave

View attachment Coco Puffs AD-1150.CivBeyondSwordSave

And note that I had to reload once in this game, when a worker pathed right next to a barb archer against my attempts to interrupt it. This happens too often.

 

[Civahaulic]

Thanks much for taking it up, TheMeInTeam.

Spoiler :

On my run I didn't have bad luck with the barbs and also slingshotted monarchy from oracle.

But at 700 AD when I had 6 cities and a ******** economy, I threw in the towel. I just don't know how to proceed from there.

What does "he doesn't abuse inexplicably nuke-immune executives to protect his cities. " mean?

 

[Kid R]

1200ad

Spoiler :

Yuk isolation. I know it requires special skills and I sure don't hav'em

Could see immediately after fishing that there were only 2 decent city sites outside the jungle so went BW and left the pig for now, to keep the option of wonderbuilding open. Sure enough after BW it is clear there is nothing worth heading into the jungle for in the short term so go masonry and wonder techs, squeezing AH in for good measure. Nobody is building wonders, so got tons of them even with piss poor production performance in Moscow! MC from oracle. Cheap forges yum yum.

1200AD: AIs - Napoleon has destroyed Lincoln or almost and he's a vassal. Other continent is WK and Bull confu block vs Asoka and Toku Buddhist block. We are doing quite nicely in tech from all rep specialists except cottaged Moscow.

Despite lack of happy/healthy resources our island is really nice - all grass and hills. Too early to say who can/should be attacked and when, but we have good beakers and hammers so something should be possible. All the cities are draftable but I may wait till cossacks as galleons have to be built too, and the home island is still some way off fully developed.

Suppose it depends how tech goes and if/when an attack window looks possible. The land is easily good enough for space too, if it weren't for Napoleon having nearly twice as much

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Nukes ordinarily kill everything in a city. For some reason, that does not include executives, which *always* live. This is very bad, because it rapes the nuke+para strategy badly. Paras can enter empty cities after landing, but nothing can kill execs/missionaries, so you can't nuke + capture same turn after all. Then the AI will draft, slave, US rush, or move units into the city or attack your paratrooper outside of it where it can't take advantage of the strongest boost to its base str, city garrison.

This is garbage. There's no reason a guy with a briefcase should survive nukes 100% of the time while seasoned military and fellow civilians alike do not under any circumstances...and then stalling a military unit on top of that?!

Most likely, it's just another of many oversights in this game.

 

[Civahaulic]

triple post - i suck.

 

[Civahaulic]

double post - deleted

 

[TheMeInTeam]

End Game:

Spoiler :

I decided that Asoka wasn't too close to internet after all and went straight for computers. Got internet, Asoka got into war with SB.

Wang launches the ship first in 1911...I haven't completed a part yet though I have apollo. Asoka is 2 techs away. Seoul is inland.

In 1922 (wang launched with one engine), a set of 5 paratroopers takes out wang's capitol. Tacticals stationed in sitting bull's land drew first blood. A paratrooper walked into pyongyang untouched. From there a transport moved in, unloaded paras, and my subs fired their tacticals into seoul. Clearing defenders, I paradrop and burn it.

In 1925 I buy out of the war using 310 gold. Wang nuked moscow . I am buying some more nukes + transports just in case vs asoka, but I'm close now.

1928 - napoleon's got a big stack outside my shores. Wang had capitulated him, but apparently nuking and razing wang's capitol and taking the other city (which got taken back the next turn) allowed him to break free and we're not at peace yet. Napster can suck my nukes. 1 tac nuke on his stack later, he takes 95 gold from me for peace.

1935 - I launch my ship, which has everything but the 2nd engine. I have also moved my palace inland. Wang has too much on his hands, but we'll see what he can do to an inland capitol with 10+ tacticals and an SDI in 12 turns, assuming he declares in time.

1936 - game can't go easy on me. Asoka launches a COMPLETE ship (officially in 1935 but the game doesn't show it until this turn), that will beat me by 2 turns! I load up 12 tactical nukes on subs + a misslie cruiser, and 2 marines + 2 paras and start boating toward Delhi. I'm obviously going to raze it the turn before he wins, too.

1942 - Wang declares on...napoleon?! Oh I see...we have the 10 turn forced treaty and he rolled war ----> I was ineligible. He bribed asoka into that war too.

1944 - Declare on asoka + vassals, and fling 12 tactical nukes into his capitol, which thankfully is coastal. Actually it was 4 nukes, which was enough to bypass SDI (one got intercepted) and leave only a damaged transport in the city, which my marine didn't seem to struggle with. I burn it, and delete my unit. After launching the rest of my nukes on a nearby city (6 of which get intercepted, which is garbage), I delete the rest of the units there. If I get a lot of war success and he can't kill anything, he'll talk much sooner.

1945 AD - I pay out ~ 200 gold for peace . I have a forced treaty with him + vassal now, and wang is still at war with nap. I win in 2 turns.

1947 AD - coco puffs wins a space race victory!

Notes:

- I was last in power the entire game, including during both wars
- Asoka and Wang each had/have ~ 7 times my power
- I got my capitol nuked
- Wonders built: Stonehenge, Oracle, taoist shrine
- Projects built: SDI (only after wang's war), space projects, internet
- Wang was 1 spaceship part away from launching his SECOND ship. I could have easily taken that down too though, since his new capitol was coastal.
- Thanks to internet, I finished with every tech but future tech. I turned my slider off after composites. Note that in this game, I got parts of fiber optics + fusion + composites, as well as a lot of tech leading up to rocketry, satellites, and ecology completely. Internet was critical as it bypassed WFYABTA.

I was the 3rd civ to launch a spaceship . But, that doesn't quite mean I lost !

View attachment Coco Puffs AD-1947.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Kid R]

I was the 3rd civ to launch a spaceship . But, that doesn't quite mean I lost !

Woo! Nice exciting finish.

I decided on the train this morning I would be beelining space and try to stay at peace if I pick the game up again this evening. Just build up a nice big force to clobber the inevitable AI cultural city or space launch at the end. Without having the game available I'm thinking I will

Spoiler :

befriend Napoleon as that should prevent any attack from the east and I can keep all the troops on the other side.

 

[Civahaulic]

You rock!

Maybe I just need to play these games out more even when I think I've lost . . .

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I used to think it was impossible to stop inland AI spaceship launches if nukes weren't banned (and very difficult if they were), before I realized you can usually 1-shot inland capitols in a single turn with paras (make extra paras or nuke the enemy planes though so you don't get ALL of them intercepted. You only need to get 1 through, but at least one HAS to make it), and that AIs that get hit with precision strikes as such and don't manage to kill any units take peace almost immediately.

You still have to have a good beaker rate mid-end game though, or you won't make it in time.

 

[Kid R]

You rock!

No I suck too!

Spoiler :

I threw in the towel when Nap landed 6 galleons full of cats and macemen and needless to say my defensive forces were weak and unfocused. Plus I was only half way to chemistry for frigates to sink the reinforcements before they got here - so game over even if I only lost a couple of cities from the first wave. Prob should have had a scout over on his side as soon as I got astronomy to keep an eye on his SOD. Too distracted by micromanaging the whips for my 6 universities though

Shame really as I had him up to +9 pleased and was crossing my fingers for him to go into his fave civic representation for a couple more points and friendly. The bloodthirsty *!*!*! kept researching military techs instead of constitution though

 

[TheMeInTeam]

No I suck too!

Spoiler :

I threw in the towel when Nap landed 6 galleons full of cats and macemen and needless to say my defensive forces were weak and unfocused. Plus I was only half way to chemistry for frigates to sink the reinforcements before they got here - so game over even if I only lost a couple of cities from the first wave. Prob should have had a scout over on his side as soon as I got astronomy to keep an eye on his SOD. Too distracted by micromanaging the whips for my 6 universities though

Shame really as I had him up to +9 pleased and was crossing my fingers for him to go into his fave civic representation for a couple more points and friendly. The bloodthirsty *!*!*! kept researching military techs instead of constitution though

Spoiler :

This is why I gave into his demand of paper. Actually it sounds like your position was stronger than mine overall right up until you got DoW'd.

I had him at pleased though and he didn't like lincoln or some of the others on the other continent, so I was pretty safe (lincoln @ cautious, wang pleased, Asoka pleased (master of toku), SB pleased).

Diplo carried and carried me until I could put something together.

Realistically I might have done better if I didn't deny the AI lib but rather got astro sooner. Even w/o GLH the trade routes are worth a lot...and so are the resource trades...!

 

[Kid R]

Resource trades yes

Spoiler :

They were a blessed relief on this map!

Actually at astronomy only Moscow got any overseas trade routes - all the rest just stuck with their 1-coin routes for some reason so I was quite disappointed with the extra commerce there.

Big blue was worst enemy with somebody else and best friends with me out of everybody, but looking at DanF's notes there are several reasons Russia makes an attractive target

Spoiler :

We are a lonely heart, we have a compact empire, and we are closest to Paris of anybody.

I will bear this in mind in future. Would have bribed him to attack elsewhere but he was WHE as soon as I met him. Could have begged I suppose - doh.

As you say it was a strong situation. Every AI had warred a lot early so tech was competitive, and the home island really was excellent. I'm disappointed not to pick up a still fairly unusual immortal win!