Immortal Game #1
- Thread starter Wrathful
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Pulling off an axe attack is not that easy even on immortal, in my experience, though being aggressive is a big boost. I mean you have to adapt more during the war than in say HA (because it's so swift) or construction (because of collateral) war. Just pointing out that things can go wrong, but the reward is of course huge. 1-city axe rush is certainly doable.
fjordan
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What's all this nonsense about an axe rush? It would be a phalanx rush right? I would do it, using your UU is always nice. And it is a very useful skill to have in your bag. Downside is it may be over very quickly which is a bit a shame for a forum game.
Normally I would say 12 tiles is too much for an phalanx attack. However apart from the flood plains and the corn/sheep site cities will be limited. A 1 city phalanx attack here could work if Zara settles towards you. Need to scout his capital.
Creative leaders can be frustrating to attack due to their culture defences.
Creative leaders can be frustrating to attack due to their culture defences.
Could you please at least give some half-decent arguments before calling something "nonsense"? ("Using your UU is always nice" isn't one IMO). Thanks.
fjordan
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Sorry Pedro, an obviously failed attempt at a joke, it seemed noone realized the phalanx is the replacement of the axe for Alex.
Having said that, to me the fact that is the UU is an argument, to add variation to the game. But I don't play Civ4 as a fastest finish / optimisation game but for mere fun as a builder so I agree it is not an argument for a learning experience. Knowing how to perform an axe rush is one though. Play the map / leader etc.
Having said that, to me the fact that is the UU is an argument, to add variation to the game. But I don't play Civ4 as a fastest finish / optimisation game but for mere fun as a builder so I agree it is not an argument for a learning experience. Knowing how to perform an axe rush is one though. Play the map / leader etc.
Wrathful
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About Phalanxes: It's good to leverage unique units and such, but with this start the only reason why I considered a pure axe rush is because we're Aggressive. The Phalanx doesn't seem that much better than the Axeman in my opinion. Chariot defense is great and all, but you can just build a spearman anyway (especially since we start with Hunting).
But I'm not sure about a pure axe rush. I'm starting to lean more towards an axepult attack. Possibly HA attack if horse is revealed.
I played a short turnset.
But I'm not sure about a pure axe rush. I'm starting to lean more towards an axepult attack. Possibly HA attack if horse is revealed.
I played a short turnset.
Spoiler To T30 :
@fjordan Lol that's alright, didn't get the joke. UU are fun to play around with on IMM indeed (pure Jaguar attacks 
), learning to axe-rush is also a thing, but in this case I think it's simply not the right move.
Okay so our games are looking very similar, except for a few things:
), learning to axe-rush is also a thing, but in this case I think it's simply not the right move.Spoiler turn 30 :
Okay so our games are looking very similar, except for a few things:
- Barracks is nice but early warriors are absolutely necessary. Not having a warrior on T30 is pretty bad when it comes to fogbusting, also increases the chances that a barb city will steal one of your rare city spots. See how I placed the fogbusters (scout due to move 1SE)
- You're scouting too far away. The information you gain is of little value and once again you miss out on fogbusting. This might lead to barb Archers spawning all around the place and slowing you down.
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Fippy
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I would just like to offer hmm..an inside view for Axe rushes in general 
(not getting into discussions if they are good here or not thou, everybody can have their opinions)
Dislike against them usually comes from
a) Cap 10+ tiles away
b) losing odds for the first attackers can be common
c) if i get bad rng, what do i do?
Well, it's not about building x guys and putting them on their cap thou.
Much more common is taking their newer cities first, which rarely have more than 2 archers (even on deity) as they are not building escorts for settlers yet.
So you can still lose ~2 axes there, but it's very safe getting that first city.
Now you can make cease fire (high enuf power rating, some war success despite losses by taking that city) and think from there.
You also get a new place for chops and units, if needed.
Captured workers are also common.
While some Axes might heal, or you wait for reinforces, you can go around with some others..
new opportunities
I can only encourage trying that, does not have to be forum games, it's very fun and strategic.
(not getting into discussions if they are good here or not thou, everybody can have their opinions)
Dislike against them usually comes from
a) Cap 10+ tiles away
b) losing odds for the first attackers can be common
c) if i get bad rng, what do i do?
Well, it's not about building x guys and putting them on their cap thou.
Much more common is taking their newer cities first, which rarely have more than 2 archers (even on deity) as they are not building escorts for settlers yet.
So you can still lose ~2 axes there, but it's very safe getting that first city.
Now you can make cease fire (high enuf power rating, some war success despite losses by taking that city) and think from there.
You also get a new place for chops and units, if needed.
Captured workers are also common.
While some Axes might heal, or you wait for reinforces, you can go around with some others..
new opportunities
I can only encourage trying that, does not have to be forum games, it's very fun and strategic.
Wrathful
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Interesting. This all makes sense. Looks like I still have a lot to learn when it comes to scouting.
There is a minor difference between our games: in yours a forest spawned on the tile occupied by your tundra warrior fogbuster (1E of the deer). That makes that tile a great defensive spot, especially with the river.
General question: How do you create dotmaps in game? I only know how to make the little "sticky note" signs using alt-s.
If AH reveals no horses, would you say that the copper is the best second city spot?
With the advice in mind I played some more turns.
Spoiler To T39 :
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ALT-X - ON/Set
CLT-X - OFF
I'm thinking that PH NW of corn would be nice. One of the main issue with moving up levels is distance maintenance. You will really start to feel the pain of this now. City overlap and tile sharing become much more important. However, the land as a whole near you is not very good, so you have to take what you can get...and that is a good city. Deer city with copper share and fish marble are the only decent visible cities.
I'd like to see what is E of your cap as well.
Your spawnbusters seem a bit to close to your borders. Barbs don't spawn where you can see and we know Zara has a border just W of that one warrior.
S warrior could move 1 tile S and W warrior probably should be NW toward city city. New warrior needs to head NW to that area that appears to be a barb birthing zone.
Well, you could do two things with worker...move him with the settler or chop out a 2nd worker. Most likely I'd take the OF into a new worker directly, but you really need to grow back on the copper (not sure I would have whipped off of it..too good a tile), so I would complete 3rd warrior - which you really need - grow to copper and chop new worker).
Scout that coast due E when you can for possible seafood.
CLT-X - OFF
I'm thinking that PH NW of corn would be nice. One of the main issue with moving up levels is distance maintenance. You will really start to feel the pain of this now. City overlap and tile sharing become much more important. However, the land as a whole near you is not very good, so you have to take what you can get...and that is a good city. Deer city with copper share and fish marble are the only decent visible cities.
I'd like to see what is E of your cap as well.
Your spawnbusters seem a bit to close to your borders. Barbs don't spawn where you can see and we know Zara has a border just W of that one warrior.
S warrior could move 1 tile S and W warrior probably should be NW toward city city. New warrior needs to head NW to that area that appears to be a barb birthing zone.
Well, you could do two things with worker...move him with the settler or chop out a 2nd worker. Most likely I'd take the OF into a new worker directly, but you really need to grow back on the copper (not sure I would have whipped off of it..too good a tile), so I would complete 3rd warrior - which you really need - grow to copper and chop new worker).
Scout that coast due E when you can for possible seafood.
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Fippy
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I think we should go with the construction plan now
Phalanxes it's getting late.
With Phi we could support that by bulbing maths, and gathering gold + teching myst & masonry while waiting for the GS.
For that i would not try stealing Zara's copper, it's an expensive city and if unlucky he can "steal" it back 2nd ring as Cre.
Would also not settle the fish city, very slow starter and not too helpful for that war.
1E of your corn marker (sheep are lost and can be covered once Zara's city is captured) and 2s of your copper i would settle, 3 cities is fine cos they have forests and require less buildup (good for getting growth and ready for a library in Athens).
Phalanxes it's getting late.
With Phi we could support that by bulbing maths, and gathering gold + teching myst & masonry while waiting for the GS.
For that i would not try stealing Zara's copper, it's an expensive city and if unlucky he can "steal" it back 2nd ring as Cre.
Would also not settle the fish city, very slow starter and not too helpful for that war.
1E of your corn marker (sheep are lost and can be covered once Zara's city is captured) and 2s of your copper i would settle, 3 cities is fine cos they have forests and require less buildup (good for getting growth and ready for a library in Athens).
Spoiler turn 39 :
In your case the absence of fogbusting should make hooking up copper a higher priority. I'd still focus on getting that second settler out first. Not sure about the tundra deer -- if going for axepult+maths bulb I think 3 cities is fine. Really depends on how fast you can get to construction, but can be pretty early if you build axes first.
Btw Zara is now in Slavery but only has Chariots.
Edit - Btw I tried the AH-worker first strategy. At T39 I am 10 beakers, 1 warrior and one barracks behind ("saved" one forest, even though I moved away from 3 when settling on the incense). Have two mined grassland hills which are not really useful as I need to whip. The rest is identical, even the settler is on the same spot. I think it settles the debate
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Wrathful
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Forgive my confusion - how did you get the settler out two turns faster? I whipped as soon as I could.
Also some other anomalies I found. I have two extra beakers in TW and 4 more food stored in Athens. So I guess I worked the clam tile for one extra turn?
In your save Zara has 3 cities but in mine he has 2. Odd. He's also still in Tribalism (not Slavery).
Thanks for the help everyone. I have played onward.
Spoiler To T45 :
My chop went into the settler, yours went into a warrior (which wasn't bad as you needed those warriors, the bad move was getting the barracks first)
That's pure RNG. Certainly not bad for you
Warrior 1 needs to be further south. It's not needed so close to your borders.
You will have 3 very weak cities here. A city near those flood plains might of helped science wise. I guess the key here will be saving forest chops for maths and construction.
Marble fish city will take a lot of work. 10 turns for a border pop.
Some fail gold from marble wonders would be nice here. I doubt you will have techs for TOA. See what happens.
You will have 3 very weak cities here. A city near those flood plains might of helped science wise. I guess the key here will be saving forest chops for maths and construction.
Marble fish city will take a lot of work. 10 turns for a border pop.
Some fail gold from marble wonders would be nice here. I doubt you will have techs for TOA. See what happens.
Spoiler turn 45 :
- Settling 1SE of the Corn is good if you don't plan to get the copper city. If you intend to get it then it's very risky, as it's the most likely spot for Zara who doesn't have metal yet.
- Your capital is still at size 2. That's not good as you have three good tiles to work (it's also the reason why in this case it's better to whip 5-3 than 4-2)
- Something I don't like in both our games is that our continent doesn't have a religion (unless there is some mysterious 4th AI hidden somewhere)
What about Bud/Hind dates? 2 Myst civs on other continent or most likely not? Any other CRE (outside Zara)? Religion % worldwide?
Anything from that can adjust overall strategy long before local wars 
