Immortal University 57 Suryavarman II

[Jester Fool]

@ Cas

Spoiler :

Tech Situation @ 520 AD;760 AD; 900 AD :







Unfortunately, I traded Astro with Mansu later (on the way to Rifling) and should have libd MT instead. By the time I attacked Monty, Mansu was already at war with him and capitulated Monty after I took only 2 of Monty's cities. That forced me to DOW Mansu so I could finish off Monty. At the time I DOWd, Mansu didn't have replaceable parts yet and I was a few turns from Rifling. Well, he got Rifling a few turns after me. After destroying Monty, I have 12 cities to Mansu's 12 (we lead in land). However, now I am behind in tech but could take out Suileman (spelling?) so I still have a chance but the score will be terrible when I do win.

Although I made mistakes, I now think the better approach would be to do a super early, 2 city HA rush on Monty (~800BC). There is too much land for the AIs to settle and I think the key would be to cap Monty and then Mansu ASAP. The other AIs don't appear to offer any threat.

 

[LeftAdjoint]

To 50AD: (warning: lots and lots of detail)

Spoiler :

Turn Zero / General Thoughts:
My first run through was before I saw the warning about the map script. Didn't know what to do with all the space and I lost a city somewhat late to a barbarian spearman...

After a couple of days to forget the details of the map: take 2. Settle in place, work the hill tile to save three beakers. (the governor apparently doesn't know everything there is to know about the expansive trait) Great potential in this city, with five riverside tiles, plenty of grassland, and fair production.

As I indicated, I don't know much about the lakes script, but I see some to the south and east on turn 0, and I know that the settings include "tropical", so I'll stay aware of the possibility of fast iron working.

Agriculture first seems like a no-brainer. I already have mining, so I'll be able to get the gold online right away, and work four good tiles with no further techs. My next tech choice will be a subtle one, but expanding north to pick up a second gold and wheat(now visible) will probably be a priority.

My other starting tech is hunting, which could come in handy if there's a non-jungle ivory nearby. It also leads me to favor archery as an early defensive tech. Speaking of ivory, the Khmer's elephants are (slightly) improved, so that could be an additional strategic consideration.

I don't see any reason to rush mathematics for their UB, incidentally, but I'll keep it in mind when doing food calculations. Expansive means less reason to build aqueducts in the first place, though it's obviously a great trait, and is responsible for my worker on turn 11 instead of 12. Creative means I can skip early mysticism if I want, and makes it easier to get libraries. (and, later, some powerful happiness boosters)

Turn Seven:
I finish mapping out the northeast, and there's a lovely place for a city to grab the gold, wheat, and a grassland cow, with two additional hills as well. Not a bad city for later, either—with civil service it can run a food surplus of 14.

The question now is whether I should scout east or west. West has a plains cow, but I can see mountains, desert, and tundra through the fog, while I can see three grassland hills to the east. But my scout is closer to the west. Since I'll be sending units east anyways with my settler, and I just met Montezuma's scout from the west, I send my scout in that direction.

Turn Ten:
My scout is being threatened by a lion, but he's on a forested hill. Should be fine. There is at least one promising city site to the west, but nothing as high priority as settling the gold right now. So what's my next tech? Since I want to work the cows in Gold City eventually, animal husbandry seems to be a sensible choice—and I might have horse. On the other hand, fast archery has the distinct advantage that it allows me to spend my early hammers very efficiently. And since I already know I'll be contending with jungle, late un-guaranteed chariots don't seem quite as appealing. And I have plenty of time to get animal husbandry later.

Any other attractive options? Masonry to work the marble, but I have no reason to get mysticism, and probably plenty of land available due to the map script, so rushing the oracle seems to miss the point. I don't need the wheel or bronze just yet either, and I have enough commerce to put off writing, so it comes down to animal husbandry or archery. I choose archery.

Turn Eleven:
Grow on a warrior. My scout does me the huge favor of not dying.

Turn Seventeen:
Meet Suleiman's scout, coming from the southeast.. Opted to improve the second corn before the gold. I'm getting archery and my first warrior next turn, at which point I'll grow on an archer. (not sure if I want a worker or a settler after that) The warrior will voyage bravely into the jungle to explore, and unlock heroic epic or die trying.

My scout has been unable to heal, harassed by more lions.

But what about my next tech? Animal husbandry seems like the logical choice—I want the wheel, but with the gold coming online soon I should be able to get it by the time I need it.


Turn Twenty-Eight:
I've met Mansa and Pacal. Pacal is expanding towards me, so I might want to prioritize a riverside jungle city to grab the pigs and rice I've just revealed. My first settler is on the way, and animal husbandry indeed reveals horse in my BFC. Next up is the wheel, for happiness and trade routes. I'll want a second worker immediately to improve the horses and, more importantly, get Gold City online as quickly as possible.

My scout, now a woodsman, finds Montezuma and heads south to further explore the jungle. Frankly, I don't care what's up in the tundra very much at the moment, but there's a nice-looking river to my southwest.

Turn Thirty-Three:
Bronze working seems more attractive than all other options. I have archers, chariots if I need them, and plenty of commerce, so getting the production machine going and expanding like crazy seems to be the way to go. Scout walks in front of an archer.

Turn Thirty-Four:
We will remember you, scout.


Turn Thirty-Six:
Gold city is founded. Improving the wheat immediately, and starting a third worker. Archer explores east a bit.

Turns Fourty-One Through Forty-Three:

My first and only warrior is killed, but I'm making another one for happiness in the capital Yasodharapura. That's too hard to type, so I'm renaming it Cappy. I'm also making archers to defend and spawnbust more effectively. We have a lot of directions to cover. Next tech is pottery for granaries, then on to writing. Bronze reveals copper and suggests a decent production city in the tundra for deer and copper. Not the best long-term city, but probably worth grabbing soon, especially if Pacal gets to the southeastern copper first.

I only have two archers, and my capital can grow once more thanks to the happiness boost from the gold, but it has nothing good to grow onto. So I'll start a settler and hope I can settle my blocking city in the jungle to the south to hinder Pacal. It can work some farms and hills until iron working, and I can defend it with my second archer, pulling my first back in case of barbarian rampage.

Turn Fifty:
Starting another worker. My plan is to grow Cappy on archers in preparation for 2-pop whipping a library. Meanwhile, Gold City is growing too, albeit slowly.

Turn Fifty-Three and Fifty-Four:
Borin' Pacal is founded. Writing finishes. Lots of open borders. Cyrus slips a city underneath my block, or maybe he just went around the lake. OK, I can still settle aggressively southwest or block him in to the southeast, but I still don't know what the land east of me looks like. Nobody has alphabet yet. I kill my slider for the moment. I have marble, so aesthetics will be promising in a bit, but my priority is still mass expansion as production allows. I'll be laying down some whips and chops in short order.

Turn Sixty-Three:

While building a settler, I find a possible double gems site pretty deep in the jungle. I'll get it if I can, but both Cyrus and Montezuma are eyeing it pretty closely. I'll compromise and just get one of the gems if I have to—it might be worth it to avoid too much border contact with Monty. On the plus side, that will allow me to steal a second horse from Cyrus.

Whipping my settler, and reducing Cappy all the way to pop 2. Still nobody has alphabet, so I can afford the loss of commerce for now.

I get foreign trade routes connected and keep making archers, fighting off some barbarians. Gold City gets its cows pillaged, but they're back pretty quickly. Borin' Pacal is an underwhelming city but at least it's paying for itself.

Turn Sixty-Nine:
Settled one of the gems and beat Cyrus to the horse by one turn. I'm a bit concerned he's going to wedge himself in between my cities, though. This could turn into a very awkward diplomatic situation.

There's a barbarian city to the east that I'll want eventually, and both the northwest and southeast coppers are still unclaimed. I'm starting to feel confident in my archer force, so I'll push out two settlers momentarily. After that I'll strengthen my worker force, start running scientists in Cappy, and head for aesthetics/literature.

Turn Seventy-Two:

Turn Eighty-Three:

I'm also going to expand somewhat aggressively to the east, for the attractive gold and flood plains. If I'm very, very lucky, I might be able to block off Charlemagne from the north and secure some more land. I'll take the two barbarian cities when I have time.

How to handle my tech trades? My two biggest threats at the moment are Montezuma and Cyrus, both of whom can declare at pleased. Cyrus is at pleased now–though that might change as he gets pissed at me for culture pressing "his" city—and Montezuma is at cautious. He hates Mansa, but I don't know if they share a border or not. I can't bribe anyone to war right now.

Unfortunately, only Mansa will trade me masonry right now. I don't think I can safely take it, so instead I'll just offer aesthetics to Cyrus for mysticism and iron working, and gift writing. Next turn, I'll trade aesthetics to Monty for polytheism, which I need for literature. Hopefully somebody will change their mind about masonry.

My economy is hurting now from expanding, so I'll cut my slider and hope for the best. Iron working will obviously help my three (soon to be four) jungle cities tremendously.

Alas, somehow gifting writing lowered me to cautious with Cyrus. (someone should explain to me how that works—it involves what BUG calls "developing nations should work together to catch up")

Iron revealed in Gold City. Lovely.

Turn Eighty-Four:

Aha! This lets me trade aesthetics to Mansa for masonry, polytheism, and fishing, while keeping Monty busy. I also gift alphabet to Cyrus to keep him happy, but I don't get any diplomacy boost for it. He was probably researching it.

Careful consideration: Will Monty still do it after I make the trade? Will Mansa still trade after I screw him over? Here's where I wish I knew a little more about the mechanics. I bribe Monty first, and Mansa, tech-lover that he is, will still make the trade.

I also pick up priesthood from Pacal, bringing him to pleased.

Turn Eighty-Seven:
Charlie beats me to the eastern gold site, but I beat Monty to the northwest deer and copper. Cyrus is getting mad at me. I settle my eastern city back from the river slightly, to avoid border trouble with the Ottomans.

Turn Ninety-Two:
I get Judaism, allowing me to bring Cyrus to pleased. Montezuma and Mansa are still quite preoccupied with each other. My economy is in horrible shape, but recovering very rapidly. The anarchy actually helps things. Doing my best to get some cottages going in Borin' Pacal, but I think Cappy is better suited to be a GP farm at this point. Starting the parthenon in Gold City.

Turn Ninety-Seven:
Charlie gets the last good city site in the northeast. Now my priority is taking the two barbarian cities before someone else gets them. They're on hills, which buys me some time.

Turn One-Hundred-Three:
Finally, my first scientist, and I'm almost done with literature, though mansa beat me to it. Academy, settle, or bulb mathematics? The latter would net me some trades, but not monarchy and code of laws, my priorities. The extra beakers seem critical right now, as I'm in danger of falling seriously behind in tech, so I go with settling.

Currency is my next objective. In the meantime I'll put some chops into the great library and national epic. Mansa and Monty have made peace, which is bad for me, but Monty hates everyone right now so it's not too bad.

Turn One-Hundred-Seven:
Charlie makes me a happy Khmer by trading me math for priesthood and aesthetics. Unfortunately the tech leaders all have it, so I'm not yet able to buy into the juicy techs of code of laws, monarchy, and calendar. I do use literature to pick up meditation. Cottaging pretty heavily now in my southwest cities. Started cottaging Angkor Wat, thought better of it, and started farming instead. Hey, I might pick up a barbarian city with just culture press.

Turn One-Hundred-Seventeen:

Currency. Finally. I can't trade for monarchy and code just yet, I'm still worried about Cyrus and Monty, and Pacal is about to snatch one of the barbarian cities from under my nose, but my research rate is just beginning to pick up, I have a couple of great scientists on the horizon, and I think I can get nine cities, including the barbarian city and an expansion in my own borders after civil service. And I share a religion with almost everyone.

Liberalism should be easy from here, but I'll have to think pretty hard about what to do on the way, and afterwards. I have quite a few options: Pacal is probably easy pickings, and his four cities would put me significantly ahead of Cyrus. I'm pretty noobish at judging good war options, unfortunately. We'll see, when I have time.

 

[Habitus]

@LeftAdjoint

Spoiler :

'developing nations should work together' happens when your both in the lower half of the score table iirc, so you could of lost it as the techs boosted him out of the lower half.

Iirc Mansa has no trade cap and trades anytime you can talk to him so yup Bribing Monty then trading with Mansa was right call

 

[LeftAdjoint]

To 450 AD:

Spoiler :

OK, time for you to all see how bad I am in the lategame

50 AD
I am already wondering if cottaging the southwest cities was the best move. With the expansive trait and the extra motivation of making quick barays, making farms and running the culture slider is seeming attractive.

In any case, bulbing philosophy is a huge priority right now to catch up in tech, and the only question is whether to get there through code of laws or drama. I need code of laws to get Cappy running plenty of great people, but I'll have a great scientist in five turns anyway, so at most I'm delaying caste system by a turn or two by getting drama instead, as I can trade for code quite quickly. (remember, folks like me)

OK, drama it is. No war plans just yet, though I'm worried someone will declare on Pacal before I can. My early blocking city really screwed over his land prospects, so I should reap the benefits when possible.

Montezuma doesn't seem to be in a hurry to settle his northern furs, so I'm going to steal them. Hopefully the longer borders don't come back to bite me.

200 AD

It's probably against Mansa. If it's me, I'll probably have to give up my tundra deer city and hold my hill capital with longbows, which I should have within a couple of turns. I also got drama, so I'm gifting meditation around to prepare for serious trades next turn. Pacal is already at WFYABTA, and I have doubts that Monty will trade with me, which would piss off Mansa and Charlie anyway.

That's a shame, as it means I can't pick up metal casting. But I can definitely get code and monarchy, and if I can manage to snag construction I might declare on Pacal soon.

In the meantime, what to research? Music would be a very interesting choice, but I don't think it fits in with my overall strategy. Calendar, on the other hand, seems like a great move, as I can't trade for it, and I have bananas, sugar, and dye. (the latter I'm getting from Pacal, but cutting his gold would be a good idea)

I revolt into caste and pacifism. I'll do HR with bureaucracy(possibly vassalage) to save some anarchy. (I don't feel like I can spare a great person on a golden age as I still don't have an academy in my capital)

After calendar I'll head for civil service.

300 AD
Nope, Monty was after me.

A little emergency diplomacy.

He's hitting my southwest city, which I didn't quite expect for some reason, but his initial attack is very tiny, just an axeman, a spearman, and two catapults. Serendipitously, I just finished a chop there, so I can have a second archer right away, with another sprinting over from Borin' Pacal.

Because I took a trade from Mansa earlier to avoid WFYABTA, I had to give him too many techs and couldn't get feudalism. Bad move. Lacking longbows is going to hurt, but I think I can hold off until Suleiman and Charlie come to my rescue. I hope.

350 AD

Get my next great scientist. I want an academy badly, but I have the bright idea of a golden age to revolt to slavery and whip archers. This also gives me easy access to HR, not to mention a boost to my economy at a critical time. I do it.

375 AD

Not too soon either! My defenses are getting pounded, and it's two weak axemen and a weak spearman versus a weak city archer. It would be bleak if I couldn't whip another right away.

I trade for construction but feudalism remains out of my grasp.

425 AD

Monty's attack force is getting a little scary. I'm likely to lose my gems city. I try to distract some units by sacrificing workers.

450AD

I lose my gems city. I could have been a little more aggressive in sending archers from my distant cities, but mostly they would have not gotten there in time. Putting myself in a position to lack feudalism, particularly when I already knew Monty was plotting, was a gigantic mistake.

The game may still be winnable from this point, as I'm still in a good tech and economic position, but I'll need some advice to continue. I think I can hold on to the furs in the north, which somewhat makes up for losing the gems resource, but it feels like a tough position from here.

One possibility is to get HBR for elephants and try to take the city back, but that's going to slow me down a lot.

 

[ben-jammin]

I'm not understanding your reasoning for going calendar instead of music. You have a trade available for monarchy. Music is infinitely more valuable trade-wise than calendar. It looks like you're in a position to get music first (also don't understand why you went drama before music?), in which case it gives you the great artist to enter the golden age to switch to hereditary rule and slavery. It also gives you far more trade options.

Obviously it's too late now but the red fist from the bug mod gives you a full ten turns warning. Ten turns was long enough for you to redistribute archers.

 

[LeftAdjoint]

I'm not understanding your reasoning for going calendar instead of music. You have a trade available for monarchy. Music is infinitely more valuable trade-wise than calendar. It looks like you're in a position to get music first (also don't understand why you went drama before music?), in which case it gives you the great artist to enter the golden age to switch to hereditary rule and slavery. It also gives you far more trade options.

Obviously it's too late now but the red fist from the bug mod gives you a full ten turns warning. Ten turns was long enough for you to redistribute archers.

Spoiler :

I got drama to open up the philosophy bulb. My alternative was code of laws, which I could trade for. Had I not botched the trading slightly, I would have gotten every possible tech I could have gotten, given the diplomatic situation.

Going for music, which is nearly twice the beaker cost of calendar, would not have gotten me any obvious benefit besides the golden age. It cannot be directly traded for feudalism, and I had no other tech to offer Mansa, the only AI who would trade it. With the other leaders, philosophy had put me into a great trading position already, and additional trading chips were unnecessary.

Calendar, which I could not trade for, netted me an immediate health and happiness point, and three strong tiles in a growing empire, as well as the opportunity to deny gold to a prospective war target. The health and happiness would have allowed me to run an additional 1/3 scientist in my national epic capital under pacifism. Since I was setting up for very serious bulbing towards liberalism, that's a significant increase in overall research.

A golden age is nice, to be sure—as is eliminating the worry of future AI culture victories—it's just that calendar felt like a very efficient use of my time in service of my overall strategy, and music did not.

I was also considering going for civil service directly and trading for calendar later.

As for not relocating archers, my big military error was completely forgetting that my SW city shared a border with Monty. A mistake I shan't make again, to be sure. I was prepared to sacrifice my NW deer city if necessary, because I could get those resources elsewhere. But you're quite right; the SW city needed defense much earlier.

 

[ben-jammin]

Philosophy bulb is nice but paper serves just as well for the lib race. Switching into pacifism with a turn of anarchy is IMO less useful than getting the free GA from music and timing it to accomplish the same thing without the anarchy but a little delayed. That golden age could conceivably net you another couple great scientists which can then set you up for a heavy duty paper->printing press->lib bulb. Which, with music already in, gets you to cavalry pretty fast with the AI hot on your heels as soon as you get to the gunpowder era.

The fact that music has twice the beaker cost of calendar shouldn't dissuade you from going for it. A free GP for a golden age, and an expensive tech that is tradeable several times, immediately netting you CoL. Compared to three improved tiles and happiness that you will get anyway once someone who likes you gets it.

Just my opinion, that's how I would have done it. I cant recall having ever passed up on music to self tech theatre just so I could bulb philosophy.

edit: With music netting you code of laws, you can then bulb philosophy anyway if you're really intent on doing that.

 

[Habitus]

Obviously it's too late now but the red fist from the bug mod gives you a full ten turns warning. Ten turns was long enough for you to redistribute archers.

Its usually around 10 turns but can be less or more iirc

 

[ben-jammin]

Its usually around 10 turns but can be less or more iirc

If they go into war prep mode I think the only way its less than 10 turns is if somebody bribes them on you. If it's a war dec for refusing a demand it's the turn after the refusal. I could be wrong, though.

 

[LeftAdjoint]

Just my opinion, that's how I would have done it. I cant recall having ever passed up on music to self tech theatre just so I could bulb philosophy.

Your argument makes sense. There was one more reason I went for drama, namely that I was thinking of running the culture slider, but that, pacifism, and even caste system, were all much less urgent than they felt in-game. I hadn't considered cavalry, because, as I said, I'm a noob in the lategame

 

[obsolete]

I hate this leader but anyway, the AI's didn't have any contest... I took out one leader right away, then severely crippled another before winning liberalism. Time to quit.

Spoiler :

 

[yatta77]

I hate this leader but anyway, the AI's didn't have any contest... I took out one leader right away, then severely crippled another before winning liberalism. Time to quit.

slider at 0%. 186/turn.
Just wondering: how many wonders did you build? which ones? all in the capital city?
How many cities settled? how many conquered? Civics adopted? Specialists you run?
Any clue is welcome. Thanks.

 

[Turin Turumarth]

Looks like he got like Sistine, and a few other artist producing wonders in his cap, and he's creative, and as you see he is building one temple in a city, so I assume he is doing that everywhere because the Apostolic Palace is Jewish and he wants the extra hammers. The temples and monasteries produce culture very quickly with a creative civ leader.

 

[yatta77]

Looks like he got like Sistine, and a few other artist producing wonders in his cap, and he's creative, and as you see he is building one temple in a city, so I assume he is doing that everywhere because the Apostolic Palace is Jewish and he wants the extra hammers. The temples and monasteries produce culture very quickly with a creative civ leader.

What's amazing it is doing all that while conquering other civilizations.

 

[lymond]

What's amazing it is doing all that while conquering other civilizations.

obs is a big wwe/se guy and makes it work well for himself. He doesn't do much to enlighten us on his briliance, but he did run through a series of games a few years back that you can search for.

 

[yatta77]

obs is a big wwe/se guy and makes it work well for himself. He doesn't do much to enlighten us on his briliance, but he did run through a series of games a few years back that you can search for.

<kidding mode >

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10474141&postcount=46

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10480467&postcount=50

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10486184&postcount=60

<//kidding mode >



---

Seriously now. I don't know what "wwe" means, if this is some kind of synonym of geniality, than we agree. The only shame with that series is the disappeared screen shots in few of the games posted/reported. Here I was just wondering about the wonders built in this specific game (I guess was played on deity anyways): by the way, this game is not even played with an ind leader (as in the liked series), and he claimed not being fan of this leader and neither of the cre trait, which also proves the approach is not trait specific (if this could be put in discussion reading the other series).

---

I hope to have the time to play this game the next week.

 

[Turin Turumarth]

WWE is World Wonder Econemy.

 

[obsolete]

I believe it's a bit of a typo and should be SSE/WE Settled-Specialist-Economy & Wonder Economy.

Someone mentioned the Wonder-Economy one day, and the term decided to stick after that.

I did not bother building the Cistine IIRC because I had already decided to just conquer everything the interesting way this game. Also, I never even gave the Mayans the chance to build it, and I certainly don't remember getting it from Monte's cities, though there is perhaps a 1% chance I MAY have missed it in a captured city, but I doubt it.

I don't remember building any settlers either, just went and took cities from barbs & leaders. They put the hammers in the settlers for me, and I put my hammers in the mounted units...

 

[AbsoluteZero]

I played this map to conquest.

part 1

part 2

part 3

part 4

part 5

 

[vranasm]

I don't remember building any settlers either, just went and took cities from barbs & leaders. They put the hammers in the settlers for me, and I put my hammers in the mounted units...

I guessed the latter part with

Spoiler :

BFC horses

didn't know about the first part though

out of curiosity what was your attack date with HA's?