Immortal University VII - Hannibal of Carthage

[patagonia]

Chapter 5: 1220AD - 1750AD

Spoiler :

The basic plan for this set is to take RP with liberalism, get rifling and globe in place ASAP and then tech to steel while gearing up for some warring. Let's see how it goes...

==========

As anticipated, things got off to a good start:

I immediately followed up by trading education to Cyrus in exchange for gunpowder and his WM so that I could get started on rifling as soon as the revolt to FR was complete.

A couple of turns later, I caught a break, as the DP between Cathy and Cyrus was unexpectedly cancelled:

God bless you Toku! It'd be a while before I had the military to make a difference on either a Persian or Japanese front, but hopefully those 3 would slow each other down a bit while I geared up for a fight. I part-researched nationalism and chemistry, trading liberalism for both to speed things along and once the Globe was complete in Carthage, I swapped to some war civics:

With steel only a few turns away and some trebs already stockpiled, let the draft commence! Before too long, I had myself a reasonable stack of rifles and cannons and was itching to do some damage, but the turn I was about to declare on Cyrus, he signed a new DP with Cathy. Rather than wait around for another war to start and end that, I moved the army north to pick on another target.

Toku very kindly moved a 27 unit SoD across the border adjacent to Hippo where I'd parked mine, allowing me to hit him with cannons and wipe out the whole of that stack on the first turn of the war. I killed another 10 units in the next 2 turns, earning two GG in the process - one who made a medic 3/morale warrior and one who settled in Carthage to improve the drafted troops. By 1570 I'd healed my stack and advanced into Japanese territory, but Sury had thrown a spanner in the works by declaring on Toku too. Our stacks were both parked next to Kagoshima and I took a gamble, allowing Sury first crack at the city since I didn't think he had enough cannons to take it. The gamble paid off as he bombarded, but didn't attack, allowing me to use my cannons to soften up the 19 defenders and capture the city.

In 1600AD, I stole Osaka from under Sury's nose. Well, I say stole, but I still had to kill 22 Japanese units to take the city. It's a good job the most advanced unit Toku can build is a musket, because he's sure got a lot of troops. As I continued the advance towards Tokyo and Kyoto, I got a slice of good fortune, courtesy of the AP, a declaration of peace against Sury protecting my future gains from his troops.

Finally, in 1740AD, Toku was eliminated and I could finally work on getting a modern economy up and running rather than relying on the whip to keep cities small and happy. I think I may have got bogged down in this war for too long and should have whipped/drafted harder earlier, but I've got a ton of land now and am the only financial civ so I'll have to see if a late emancipation boom is enough to overcome this tech deficit.

With biology I should be able to easily win via the AP once I've spread Buddhism around a bit more, but I may play on and try to compete in the space race. Sury will be friendly soon and once I've got a DP with him nobody will mess with me.

 

[silverbullet]

Oh, that looks like an interesting game, and finally I got a new computer.
I started playing a little bit and I think I will play that game with the following limitations (don't open the spoiler if you haven't played until 2000BC and discovered bronze):

Spoiler :

1) no rushing - I will not initiate a war in the BC era. Cyrus will live - the question is, how do I prevent him from declaring war on me. Will the AI automatically declare on you when you block them, even at pleased? how does it work exactly?
2) No Great Library - let's try a game without it, and hopefully financial will compensate for lack of GS.

I think I will go for Great lighthouse and island settling (I amazingly got both BW and masonry from huts), but I am not yet sure how I would balance it with REXING. The immediate land is very poor in terms of production/food combination.
Do you think it is worth to build a tiny city to block Cyrus or a tiny city near the gold/bronze? I am thinking of ignoring this land completely and settle the north and west.

 

[Sleepless]

@Silverbullet

Spoiler :

On the no rushing. I couldn't resist it myself. If you have explored Cyrus lands you'll note he hasn't much room. So if you do block him in I would set one city to building units virtually non stop to keep your power rating up and give in to his demands. If he makes any that is.

I must admit I like having Cyrus in my games as he makes a great friend and feel guity when killing him off. No too guilty though.

I was going to make a proposal on the next one (thats if there is ). No attacking anybody in the BC era. Obviously if you get attacked thats different. Any thoughts anyone?

 

[patagonia]

@ silverbullet:

Spoiler :

Sounds like you're taking the same sort of approach to the early game as I did.

Cyrus is one of the few AI I'd risk blocking in this sort of position since he's a very good neighbour who will get to pleased quickly and never attack once he is (unless he decided on war before reaching pleased with you). Don't forget to take the Persian UU into account when building an early military though, just to be safe.

I settled two relatively junk cities to prevent him from expanding off his little peninsula, but they paid for themselves with GLH trade routes, while island cities will turn an instant profit thanks to the intercontinental boost.

@ tycoonist:

Spoiler :

It might be worth settling a junk city to claim those gold tiles. I'm not sure how far Carthage's culture extends, but if you leave too big a gap there Sury may dump a city in your backyard. That's an impressively large empire for this early mind you

@ Sleepless/JBossch/TheMeInTeam:

Spoiler :

Congratulations on the wins! Hopefully I'll be able to join you and improve my 50% success rate in the IU.

 

[ungy]

up to 1665 :

Spoiler :

At my last post of 125AD I was headed for a peaceful game having missed the GLH but picked up the GLib. I had settled the islands, the crap city by the 2 gold, and 3 others. Unfortunately I get beat to most of the rest of the jungle and barb cities but get a marginal one up n.
Cyrus having plopped one down at the incense hits me with a culture bomb and I lose the horse and fish for a while
Toku decides we're not going play peaceful after all and I have some troubles. Despite having just got to CS and mace, I was badly outnumbered and he could move on 3 of my not too well connected cities. I hold out but just barely with a bunch of upgrades but can't get an attack going and settle for peace. His payback comes as I rip past him tech wise and rifle rush him.

As he's near the end my FRIEND Cathy takes him as a vassal and I'm at war with her. I didn't think friendly AI's would do that. Anyway I finish Toku, take peace with Cathy, regroup a bit and the rest will be trivial--way too much land and the power of democracy and the jungle cottage spam will turn tech parity into a runaway. Probably won't finish it.

I ended up not having much of a capital and giving it the globe/NE--not how I like to play but it worked out OK.

 

[Gliese 581]

Sleepless/JBossch/TheMeInTeam

Spoiler :

Congratulations on your victories! I just read them through since I've now discovered all the hidden resources in my game. I'm at 1630 and will probably go for domination JBossch style, although he's ahead of me at this date.
It's taking me some time to finish up like usual though, I have a hard time speeding up my play so it naturally slows down as the game progresses. I guess I'm just compulsive about double checking or tripe checking every little bit. I don't know why since I still make mistakes all the time!
At least this game hasn't been the least bit boring so far. You might find it hard to believe but this is only the second game ever I've gone with drafting (IU Suleiman being the first). Also I'm in State Property which is rare for me indeed. I think it ties in with my inability to build enough workers, the few poor workers I have usually don't have time to spam workshops!

 

[Gliese 581]

Part 5 (1410 AD - 1670 AD):

Spoiler :

I ran into unexpected trouble and was taking alot of screenshots as well so I figured I might as well partition the game in two and ask for your opinions.

1410: At the start of the round I DOWd Sury as planned.

I had a good start and didn't lose a single unit after using spies to take down the defenses.

However, Sury bribed Tokugawa to backstab me on the next turn, bringing lots of outdated japanese units across my borders. They were no match for my riflemen though but I couldn't stop them from doing some pillaging. Reinforcements en route to Khmer lands made a stop in the isolated city of Yokohama.

My attacks against Sury continued with nonstop drafting from the GT city Mauryan close to the Khmer borders quickly swelling the ranks of my army.

There was a possibility of Cathy being bribed into attacking me (it doesn't take much to convince her) so I decided to act first and stir up some trouble.

Tokugawas SODs where taken apart one unit at a time at the northern borders and the draftees from Mauryan had started to travel to the east. Another city was captured.

I also pressed on in the south.

Unfortunately I didn't have enough troops to safely capture and hold the city after taking down the defenses so I killed all but one unit. Sury sent massed reinforcements into the city on his next turn though and I decided to wait for my own reinforcements.
They were busy elsewhere but not for long.

I razed the city.
Tokugawa had sent all of his offensive troops east to defend against Cathys attack so it was easy to make progress on that frontier.

After this I decided to sign peace with Tokugawa to concentrate on Sury.
Cleanup behind the borders to kill Surys annoying frigates and airships.

When the reinforcements arrived I was finally able to capture Nagara Jayasri.

All the warring was taking a toll on my research and I was able to do some trading again.

After this I decided I better start another war on the other continent lest they run away with techs.

My armies pressed on in the south after healing up.

As you can see, Sury had finally aquired Rifling, good job going for Steam power and Steel first though Sury!
After this I decided it was time to take a break to save on the WW some and work on my economy so I made peace with Sury getting last third of Steel and 70 gold.
However the ladies were not going to give me any breaks, Cathy asks me to DOW Tokugawa and Izzy asks me to dow Lincoln. Anything for you ladies.

1580: Tokugawa capitulates to Cathy just as I'm about to attack him. Bummer, but now is not the time to fight Cathy.

1600: I get a GM in Persepolis and use him with a saved GS for my second Golden Age and switch from Slavery to Emancipation.

1610: I sign a peace treaty with Lincoln.

1625: Time for more trading.

I switch to State Property and Free Speech after some final drafting in Mauryan.

1645: I redeclare on Sury and attacks with 2 big SODs. The turn after Persepolis builds its first West Point Enhanced unit.

I have 3 settled GGs here but I need one more for level 6 units although with the stable I can make level 6 cavalry. I don't usually build the WP but since Persepolis is on the other side of the world when it comes to sending reinforcements to Sury I figured I might as well prepare a super military city for when i take on Cathy.
Sury lose another city.

And two more.

continued in next post.

 

[Gliese 581]

continued

Spoiler :

1670: Here things takes an interesting turn as Cathy backstabs me, while taking Sury as a vassal, putting me in a 3 on 1 war situation. She must have been bribed by Sury since we were Friendly but I didnt think he had any techs on her, must have missed it. Cathy has railroad, assembly line and combustion on me and I have artillery on her. I'm researching AL and hope that I can trade for the rest of it from Izzy in 2 or 3 turns. The WW is killing me however. Should I revolt to Nationhood and Slavery or just Slavery or should I try to get the trade with Izzy first? If that doesn't go through I'll need to rely on artillery to hold of Cathys infantry. She just got the tech though and didn't send any infantry across the borders on the first turn of war.
I'm thinking I should finish of Sury as quick as possible to avoid tying up units in the south, that would also relieve most of the WW. What do you think?

Some shots of my frontiers:

My units are still split in the north and south here. If I take his capital he might break free of Cathy?

 

[Rusten]

Up to 325 BC

Spoiler :

Settled 1 north and set production to a worker. I didn’t do any maths on this, but even with financial 6 corn and 3/3 cows are such awesome tiles. While that means a little less commerce it means much more production so it was my preferred gambit.

- pop BW from the first hut like everyone I guess.
- gold from the second.

The problem with moving 1N was that copper now was out of my 3rd ring. There was no way of knowing that though. As a result I settle Utica for faster copper and the gold. While that might look like a poor city I’ll get back to just how awesome it is (other than blocking Cyrus) later if you know what to do with it. Furthermore, Toku founded Hinduism.

I didn’t bother going for the GLH as the map seemed to be a snaky pangea. I also thought I’d differ a little from the standard (guessing most people have made it). In my opinion the wonder is less attractive with Hannibal rather than more as you’ll have 3 trade routes anyway.

While it would’ve been a good gambit I avoided rushing Cyrus as it wasn’t necessary in this game. After seeing his capital I was torn though (marble yummy).

I researched Alphabet rather than Aesthetics as I had no marble for the GL and because my research was enhanced by BW from the hut. I’d just sit around with Aesthetics and not be able to trade with it for centuries. I was in need of Alphabet right away as I had/was about to settle a city on the river in the jungle towards Toku. I got a little unlucky though, I wasn’t able to trade for maths even after postponing it and teching Currency in the meantime. Being able to jump to Currency after Alphabet is an added bonus of avoiding Aesthetics for trades. Anyway, as mentioned I had to self-research Mathematics even after almost completing Currency, this made me lose the pre-tech discount, but at least I got the “civs-know” discount for Mathematics.

700 BC – spawn my first GS, academy in Carthage.
675 BC – settle Kerkouane which was the final step of my blocking, I’ll now get 6 cities after settling on the island with iron.

575 BC – scouting both directions with a work boat has finally payed off, I’m greeted by Izzy and will now get overseas trade routes.

475 BC – just after completing currency Suryavarman asks for it—dream on dude.

Tech screen as of 325 BC. I'm doing well despite only trading for IW. Not going for Aesthetics also slows down the AI a little.

Now back to why Utica is so good. This city will have no tiles with surplus food until after chain irrigation which means that I can totally ignore infrastructure here (other than perhaps a library for culture). It can be a great military city later on though, but I have nothing to build for that right now, so I just leave it at size 2 working the gold and the copper and producing research/wealth. This city made a huge difference in getting currency some turns faster which led to more trade routes and more income overall. Let’s have a look at what I’ve been getting from it every turn after Alphabet (remove the extra trade route pre-currency). What appeared to be a horsehockey filler city to block Persia is actually pulling in a lot of gold and beakers (15 science and 7 gold atm).

Producing science/wealth is the better move in situations like this. If I had made units I’d just pay upkeep, and infrastructure would make no sense as this city will never have any commerce worth mentioning. I could’ve worked the forests while growing slowly, but that wouldn’t have led to much, this city is a huge bonus as early as size 2, and it’s better to work the gold right now as it has a bigger influence than working it 30 turns later.

 

[JBossch]

@Gliese:

Spoiler :

I like the idea of taking out Sury to relieve war weariness. The only problem is Pre-rup, the island city in the middle. You will probably need more than that galley and will have to keep a sharp eye out for Cathy's destroyers. Hide your frigates. Your poor workboats are likely to take a beating.
You're going to have to address the war weariness as well and I think you are right about slavery and nationalism. The +2 barracks happiness helps a little and you will probably want to draft from the Globe city. I'm not sure bureaucracy is that great at this point anyway considering its high maintenance costs.
As for assembly line I would max science as much as possible and trade Artillery to Izzy as soon as she will do it. I would say hold out on revolting until after the trade unless you think it will help tech enough to warrant a switch. It looks like you haven't taken out any big Cathy cossack SoD's yet so I would be a little on edge until infantry are available. Once they are and Sury is done, definitely use infantry to try to get Toku to split off and make a separate peace w/Cathy.
The good news is that your economy is still quite respectable and getting most of the war weariness off your back is doable.
Hope this helps. Good luck!

@silverbullet:

Spoiler :

As far as blocking in AIs: apparently there is an alternate AI script that can be triggered by blocking in AIs before they expand to a certain level. I first found out about this in a game where I blocked in Sitting bull (supposedly a very peaceful AI) and he DoWed me 3 times despite otherwise decent relations. Someone who knows more about the game code might be able to elaborate.
Anyway, for what its worth, I still recommend rushing Cyrus. Though it will be interesting to compare the results of some different starts.

Good luck with the game.

 

[Gliese 581]

JBossch

Spoiler :

Thanks for your input. I didn't consider that Pre-Rup is on an island but I should be able to get Sury to split of from Cathy by capturing his capital and his other city on the continent, he's likely to immediately agree to peace if I accomplish this. The only remaining unhappiness would then be yearn to rejoin motherland which is not going to be huge since all the cities I've captured from him took a beating and is growing Carthaginian citizens.
I don't know what's best, to continue drafting in my GT city (could pump out rifles then infantries every turn for a little while) or to leverage it's high food yield and workshops to quickly build artillery. In any case Nationhood would be good for +2 happy from barracks and the ability to emergency draft some more rifles in my border cities. Slavery mostly since lots of cities are starving.
I'll play the next round soon.

 

[mystyfly]

I finally found time to play on

Spoiler :

... but am likely not playing it out

Everything was great. I built the GLH, rushed Cyrus, built the GL in Persepolis, REXed and got lots of land sealed off. I made 1 rather big mistake; I didn't set out early to look for other AIs, just when I spotted some foreign borders from russian homeland. This would've increaced income considerabely. Also I didn't settle those 2 small islands, though I planned it. This was no real mistake, I merely delayed them in favour of sealing off sury and toku. I had a galley and axes ready to settle them next.
I also put the NE in Carthage and the HE (+MI) in Uttica.

But then Toku DOWd me in 520AD. No biggie, I was able to hold my cities easily. Thing is most of my army has been on the easter side and so sury had no big problem when he backstabbed me
Now I don't intend to finish it but post a save. I'm not sure when I this save is from exactly, it's merely the last one I have. If someone has a good idea or is able to motivate me to play on, go ahead. Otherwise I'll just leave it. I also don't like to play the same game twice (just soooo boring having to scout & do everything again...). I'll probabely join next time again...

View attachment Immortal Student Hannibal AD-0560.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[silverbullet]

Finally I have a computer that can play.
Up to 850BC: seems to be going well, but I always make stupid mistakes when things go well, so please help me avoid them. I decided to stop playing and wait for advice.

Spoiler :

So I decided no rushing and no great library in this game.
I popped both BW and masonry from huts, and built worker first while researching agriculture, then a workboat, then a few warriors to scout and then a lighthouse and great lighthouse before building the first settler.

Civs met: Cyrus, Toku (hindu), Cathrine(hindu), Sury (Confucianisms founder).

Wonders built: Great lighthouse (me), pyramids (unknown), stonehenge (sury) , great wall (unknown).

Techs: BW(hut)->Masonry(hut)-> Agriculture->AH->sailing->-mysticism->wheel->pottery->writing->alphabet

After the great lighthouse i built a few more units and 2 settler.

I have just discovered alphabet and I think I will research hunting next for spears. I need some counter to immortals.
Tech:

Cities:

I got a lucky even and gems appear in the capital!!

I settled Utica to get 2 gold mines and bronze. It will stay small but with good trade routes and gold it should pay for itself.
I settled Hadrumetum on the fish-incense-horse-sight.

Empire map:

The north:

Toku has already settled a great jungle riverside spot, I guess I pay the price for the GLH.

My current army is very weak (4 warriors, 2 axemen, I just lost a chariot to barbs) and I am afraid of Cyrus because I am blocking him.


I am also missing on a library and scientist specialists in the capital. I would much rather have an academy there over a great merchant that is coming in 22 turns, but I am not sure it is more important than settlers and units right now.

Scouting is also needed. My trade routes are mostly internal, and better coastal scouting would give me better routes. Settling these 2 islands is also important for intercontinental routes.

My cities are very small and my capital is the main unit/settler producer. I think I should keep it that way until my power rating is reasonable, and only then focus on infrastructure in the capital. My tech rate seems to be good so far.

Should I trade with Catherine or Cyrus?

Also, I remember reading somewhere that Catherine can declare war even when friendly - is that true? If so I need to watch my power rating and fortifications on her border, and maybe shouldn't bother to please her too much.

 

[Gliese 581]

silverbullet

Spoiler :

You're right in that you need to scout a bit more. I would get a wb going in both directions as soon as possible and scout the jungle.
Cathy can't attack at friendly but she can quite easily be bribed by others to attack you even if you're friendly (happened in my game ).

 

[tycoonist]

@ mystyfly:

Spoiler :

that sounds unlucky. i am very worried about being backstabbed myself, survayman is a known judas. war against him is planned but not yet.

hopefully i will have time to play this week, maybe thursday (after my french writing exam

 

[patagonia]

Chapter 6: 1750AD - 1911AD

Spoiler :

At the end of the last round, I'd just finished conquering Japan, but had taken about 50 years too long doing so and ended up in a bit of a tech hole as a result. However, I was number one in land and confident of being able to fashion a win from somewhere.

The easiest option seemed to be the AP and I got the perfect opportunity to spread Buddhism to every civ on the globe when Sury declared on Lincoln. He captured an American city, allowing me to spread the religion there, and then promptly lost it to a counterattack. Unfortunately, Isabella (builder of the AP) had researched Mass Media by then, obsoleting the wonder. If I was going to get a diplo win, it was going to have to be via the UN.

Isabella did me a massive favour by building the UN herself. At the time, Sury was number one in population, but I knew if I could overtake him in pop, it'd be me against Isabella in any votes, so I just had to be more popular than her. I ran Buddhism and OR to make Sury my best friend and signed DP with both him and Cathy to keep myself safe (everyone hated Lincoln so there was no danger of them declaring on each other as long as I bribed them out of war with America to keep Lincoln free and alive).

Sury gave my empire a boost by spamming Sushi to all of my cities, and I farmed over a bunch of towns in Old Japan to accelerate population growth to eventually take the lead:

Unfortunately, that didn't happen until just after Sury had been re-elected as secretary general, so I thought I was going to have to wait a fair bit longer for a new election before I'd be able to get a diplomatic victory vote. However, he clearly valued our friendship a great deal, because in 1911 he handed me the win:

Isabella was going cultural, but had slightly overcooked things in Madrid and therefore didn't pose any great threat. I think Cathy would have won space if things had gone that far, but instead I got my 3rd IU victory! Going for space myself would have been dicey I think; it'd have been touch and go whether I made it to the internet first or not, but fortunately Isabella beelining mass media helped make the decision on victory type for me. Domination/conquest were definitely out I think (Sury was more advanced and had about 4x my power at the end of the Japan war).

That makes one cultural, one space and one diplo for me in this series so far. I really should try and play a more aggressive game, but I think I need to brush up on the pace of my warmongering a bit first.

 

[patagonia]

@ mystyfly

Spoiler :

Tough luck on the dogpile. I don't think I've ever played the 500BC-1000AD years as slowly and carefully as I did in this game with those two and Cathy for neighbours. With that many backstabbers around it's not easy to stay out of trouble; I was checking WHEOOH almost every turn.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@ mystyfly

Spoiler :

Tough luck on the dogpile. I don't think I've ever played the 500BC-1000AD years as slowly and carefully as I did in this game with those two and Cathy for neighbours. With that many backstabbers around it's not easy to stay out of trouble; I was checking WHEOOH almost every turn.

Spoiler :

That's why I buddied up with Sury by taking his religion. I felt like I'd get a screw-job if I went the other way (which, in retrospect, several people here did successfully with stronger games than me ). I actually built walls in the resulting 2 cities that could be attacks. Boy did they see use, too. As much as I usually like isabella, I hate cathy that much.

 

[Rusten]

325 BC -> 640 AD

Spoiler :

After some quiet centuries I decide to squeeze in a city or two up north. The funny thing is that I had <1> unexplored tile straight north and of course that <1> tile had marble on it!

(currenct anarchy is for bureaucracy and HR)
Even though it’s late in the game now I see that nobody researched Aesthetics yet, so I decide to go for a late GL as the opportunity cost is pretty low. I end up getting the wonder as it only takes like 5 turns to complete with some whipping and a forest chop. By 175 AD I’m quite advanced.

475 AD – Toku declares on Catherine.
640 AD – Started chain irrigating Utica preparing it for its role as a military city. Currently getting gunpowder before Liberalism for safety, too many sneaky rivals out there.

 

[silverbullet]

Played a few more turns. I think luck is on my side this game, but I am probably ruining it at this moment by writing about it

Played until 300AD

Report up to 275BC

Spoiler :

I stopped my last turn set after discovering alphabet.
I traded alphabet to Cathrine, and started researching hunting for spears to counter immortals.
I then decide to research Aesthetics instead of math, so I can do some trades.
After Aesthetic->mediation->priesthood and 1 turn of monarchy I manage to trade for both monarchy and maths. Next research is currency.

I trade currency +5 gold to Cathrine for construction.
By that time I also settled my 4th city on the iron island, and converted to confucianism, and now cyrus and Sury are my friends. Cathy and Toku are hindu friends, and I have also met their religion founder - Isabella. At this point I only met her scouting workboat in Cathy's land.

Cyrus has stolen a good city spot of cow/rice north of my capital, but at lest it will be a good espionage city, so I settled the island instead.
I parked some forces near the jungle barbarian city, perfectly located to get 2 bananas, grassland cows and 2 spices.
Toku moved some forces to attack it, and weakened the defenders. Unfortunately my army has raised the city after that - I didn't notice it was a size 1 city.
So I have to get that spot quickly, I switch the capital to settler and plan to whip it.

Finally, in 275BC I was lucky to get a great scientist in Carthage (15% chance or so), even though I had a very late library, so I built an academy and shaved a turn from currency research.
Tech Status:

Spoiler :

Carthagian cities:

Spoiler :

Meeting the Spanish definitely helped boost trade routes.
North Carthage:

Spoiler :

South Carthage:

Spoiler :