Immortal University VII - Hannibal of Carthage

[mystyfly]

Short summary until 200BC (big report with fancy pics when the game is finished

Spoiler :

I started with BW and popped it right away as well as masonry. This makes the game so much easier. I quickly found cyrus to the south and scouted his land. I found out he has no copper but horses and is left with very little land. I took the save route and went GLH first and later rushing Cyrus. He has been busy building the GWall for me. He had virtually no army, just a stack of ~7 immortals that has been taken down easily. Somehow Cyrus seemed to bypass Mysticism as there were no monuments in his cities. In the end (at the gates of persepolis) he managed to build a cat but that was it.
Now I've gotta make sure Toku isn't napping my land. I'm a bit worried about sury; he has founded judaism (with shrine) as well as a number of wonders, including Colossus, ToA, mids or hanging gardens (he got a GE), the oracle and the AP(rushed). Probabely more, I would need to look more closely.
Techwise I went aest after writing which proved "meh" as all the AIs delayed alphabet a very long time. Now I have to make something out of it, cathy was first and I instantly sold her aesth for it. All AIs seem to tech pretty slow. After aest it was IW (to settle the jungle) and literature. I got marble so I thought why not. None of the AI has aest beside cathy who got it from me. I'm very confident to get it.
Sury also founded confucianism and probabely christianity (not sure), I'll have to have a closer look at his lands.
Cathy founded hinduism and Toku somehow converted to judaism so the two will be busy. I hope to attack sury with maces or cuirassiers at least. If he's out I'm left with the strongest rival down, a ton of wonders and lots of land.
GPWise I'm a bit weak. Constant axe-pumping delayed the library and so the GS. I still got him (no GM!) and he made an academy. I hope to get CoL soon (from sury) to run more scis. Carthage is working on the NE, utica (1N of copper, as many of you did as well) is getting the HE (with one MI).

I'm in a very nice position and need to finally launch an attack to get the game in the bag. I'm confident, I also have about 5-6 CR-3 axes (+1 CR-3 C-1 spear ) plus a nice healer already ready so I lay my hopes in maces.

 

[Gliese 581]

@Mystyfly

Nice work, it seems most games started out similarly. Don't forget to post your save.

 

[mystyfly]

@Gilese 581: I didn't forget it, I just want to wait posting saves until I'm done (or at some special point like 1AD, lib or 1000AD or so. I'll probabely play on and post a 1AD save tomorrow if you like )

 

[Gliese 581]

I've been bad and have played another round of this game although I should really finish the Charly game. This is so much more fun though at this point.

Part 2 (650 BC - 520 AD):

Spoiler :

625: Finish Aesthetics, start on Alphabet to get a trade with Sury.

575: After 2,5 turns of full research into Alphabet I decide Sury is going for Aesthetics himself so I switch to Polytheism.

550: After killing of Cyrus Immortal with a spear I can settle Hadrumentum like I planned.

525: Meanwhile, my army is not resting.

I raze the city.

500: Finish Polytheism start on Literature.

425: Sury gets Literature, is he going for Glib as well?

400: Finish Literature start on Alphabet again at 0% hoping that Cathy will pick it up soon so I can trade for it and use the gold on some other tech.
I start on the Glib in Carthage which is aided by chopping my last prechopped forest there. I have marble from Persepolis so I'm not overly worried about Sury grabbing the wonder before me.

350: I'm ready to capture Cyrus last city.

I kept it as planned, it would have been better on the other gold as it could have worked a grassland of its own and a cottage for the capital but I keep it nonetheless to save time and hammers.

200: Cathy obtains Alphabet, a little to late though as I decided not to wait any more and have 2 turns left on it.

175: I attack a barbarian city in the jungle.

A settler is close. I had planned on grabbing the cow but Tokugawa beat me to it so I decide to capture the barbarian city instead, unfortunately it's razed so I send my settler there to rebuild.
I also trade Aesthetics to Cathy for IW+ last turn of Alphabet but I forgot to take a screenshot.
It could be argued that it's a waste of trades to get the last turn on alphabet here but Cathy is very willing to trade, Sury's pretty good too and it's still early in the game so there's time for some decay.
After this I took some time to ponder what to research next. I could go for Currency, COL or Monarchy. I decided to go for COL first via Priesthood since Sury and Tokugawa had Currency already and the AI usually goes for Monarchy early as well to get some trades. However, I did not want to found confucianism so I would have to wait in case I were in danger of being first to COL.

150: I whip the last of Glib. Could have whipped my Lighthouse last turn before I started on it to get an extra 60 hammers.

I start on NE. However this was not to be as I ended up building ship after ship because of happy barbarians.
I finish Priesthood and start on COL. Buddhism is spread to Utica. Both Cathy and Tokugawa has this although neither of them is the founder, meaning there's 2 close civs and 1 fairly close who has it. Sury founded judaism which he's adopted. I decide to convert to Buddhism.

125: Switch to Maths for a turn to trade Literature for it to Cathy, but then she starts to build THG and won't trade anymore.
I found the jungle city.

25: I continue spamming settlers.

I realized I shouldn't have razed Susa in round 1 since I captured TGL in Persepolis. I hadn't noticed the fish and didn't think about this though so I just razed it. Anyhow this spot is slightly better than the old. I give up fresh water but gain an additional plains tile and swap another plains tile for a riverside grassland tile, and..

1 AD: I also gain this:

VERY common event with razed cities. This is a good reason never to improve them unless they're on a resource you want to work or you have nothing else of value to improve/work. I fund the additinal exploratory efforts and it pays off.
My people kept expanding.

I'm thinking Moai here right now, what do you think?

100: I go for Metal Casting since I don't want to get COL before confucianism and since I got some free beakers there. I even dream about possibly getting the Colossus. Cathy finished THG and want to trade Maths again.

150: First GS born in Carthage, I use him for an Academy there.

225: Finish MC, switch back to COL since confucianism got founded in 175 AD.
I also make another trade with Cathy.

I then immediately ask her for 40 gold which she is happy to give me. This lets me finish COL the next turn. I make another trade.

I start on Civil Service. After this follows a bit of an awkward period where most cities struggle with this or that. I'm unable to get any work on the NE in my capital as mentioned since barbarian galleys keep showing up. I eventually get a trireme there though. Tokugawa is moving around with a settler threatening to cut off my expansion. I have a settler of my own ready to build a city though as soon as he steps 3 tiles away from all nearby cities. Meanwhile I finally get an army together to raze Hittite up north to make space for the city I really want to found.

Tokugawas settler moves south hugging my border but is never in danger of cutting me off so I move my settler to my preffered location. Notice where Tokugawa settled his city, it's going to be completely surrounded by my culture. It's in an ok position to keep when I flip/capture it. It's a bit annoying that it blocks my roads though since Toku still refuses to sign OB.

I played a couple of more turns, nothing dramatic happened. I finally got started on the NE in Carthage, my second GS is ready to pop there in 1 turn and I can bulb Philosophy right away. I'm close to finishing research on CS. After that I'll go straight for Liberalism. I'll need to get a few more workers (built far to few early in this game). and then switch to Caste System and Pacifism soon to get more GSs in Carthage.

 

[futurehermit]

If this wasn't immortal I would say the game would be won as soon as GLH was completed

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Hi all!

As promised, after getting my face kicked in on the first game of this series I went back to learn emperor (in fact many of you have helped me). Armed with new knowledge (and cheese strats! Hooray!) I'm back. Let's see how it goes, one can't expect to instantly win their 2nd immortal game ever, but damned if I won't try.

I've played through 1010 AD:

Spoiler :

I settled in place, founding 2 cities after doing so: The one seen in the picture below, and a city north of the capitol to pick up the cows and rice. Met Sury, Toku, Cathy, and Cyrus pretty early. Not the best neighbors ever. Popped agriculture and some gold from huts. Cyrus is pinned down in the SE and looks to have good cottage land/coastal tiles. He's the logical choice though vs immortals sucks. I did it anyway:

Rookie mistake 1: Where're the spears? I quickly captured the city shown here and the one SE of it, next to the persian capitol. Then, I took peace as my axes were hurting.

Heal up and go again I guess. I was hoping to grab both that city and his capitol, but seeing the garrison in the capitol I once again took peace, healed, and grabbed a few extra axes.

Jeez finally. That's right, as you can see I lucked out pretty nicely, picking up both colossus and the GLH. This might make up for some of my mistakes .

Here's a look at my empire 10AD. Cathy beat me to the fish/horse/bananna location so I decided to just take fish/horse there. Also decided to settle one more city up there, sury and cathy had me boxed in after that.

Sury is a zealot and thusly likes me a lot for running jewish. I like the OR building bonus, so I'm chancing it sort of. Cathy has too much on her hands at some point but axe/numidian spam and building walls in the NE city I settled mitigated that.

Here we are at 1010 AD:

Had some trouble with multiple barb galleys pillaging fish resources (not used to this to such an extent, must be an immortal thing). Have galleys stationed and almost beat sury to that western iron island. I am actually trading sury copper for a health resource, gold, and 7 gpt (I will settle the gold down there shortly, and use it as a coastal commerce throwaway city.).

A look at the techs in 1010AD, having just discovered and traded education:

It looks like I'm in the liberalism race somehow. I won't broker philosophy away until I have lib or am very close to it. I will probably take printing press, trade pre-reqs for chemistry, and beeline grenades/cannons. Toku has been his usual idiot self and is falling behind in tech. Sury has too much on his hands too, and considering that he's been friendly with me since before that was the case, he's going for either toku or cathy (both heathens relative to him). My guess is toku, but what do I know. If he asks for help with either of them I will comply to keep diplo with him and shave some cities. I've been spamming troops and have a decent garrison that, while not up to date or able to beat a civ on its own yet, could probably steal some cities away from sury.

It's worth noting that cathy built the AP in hindu, which means that if I can get it from her and keep sury friendly with me, I can win the game pretty easily using the AP for diplo. Anyway, that's my position for now. Unlike many of my posts here this is still a "live" game. I think i'm in a position where the game is still winnable, but we'll see.

View attachment 178135

 

[JBossch]

1AD-1080AD:

Spoiler :

Chapter 3: "The Wild Ride to Liberalism"

It was a long but fun session. Here's a sneak peek:

50AD: Its not long into this round before Cathy comes a beggin':

Anything for you sweetheart.
CoL is in this turn and I start on CS.

175AD: A GS is born in Carthage and I bulb philo. The next turn I revolt to Pacifism and CS and max out scientists in Carthage. Time for some bulbing.

225AD: An AP vote comes up to cancel deals with Sury. I vote no in order to keep my trade routes open but it passes. Oh well, not worth +5

250AD: A deal with Cathy:

300AD: Hmm, let me think...

I don't think so.
Also, SP is BIAFAL. Arrgh! 2 turns left! The gold will fund some deficit research and Persepolis switches to Angkor Wat.

350AD: Carthage pops another GS. I make an academy with this one as this city is going to be a big science producer during my GS production phase.

375AD: Lincoln wants me to cancel deals with Toku and I accept:

CS is in but I hold off switching to Bureaucracy. With hammers turned off in Carthage it won't get me a whole lot.

425AD: Cathy offers Fuedalism for my Philo but I turn it down. I really want to inhibit the AI's path to Lib and if there is any freakin use for Feudalism someone will have to clue me in.

450AD: A trade w/ Lincoln.

I have been putting off improving the calendar resources (I have sugar and incense) for long enough.

475AD: Stop what war?

I wasn't aware of any war.
As it turns out, Cathy declared on Toku this turn and, even though I voted against it, the AP decision ended it immediately. Yet another reason to raze the stupid AP.

500AD: I buy Lincoln's world map for 55 gold.

520AD: Another GS pops and I bulb Edu down to about 4 remaining turns.
Also, Sury is getting pushy:

I decline and am starting to worry Sury will declare on me.

540AD: Sury isn't the only grabby AI:

I have to say no. We have enough positive diplo I should be able to easily swallow -1 and, again, I really want to slow the AI's path to Lib.
I sell her my corn for 7 gpt instead.

560AD: An interesting event:

I take the highlighted option which puts me at friendly with Cathy.
Also notable - Izzy will DoW Lincoln but I don't have enough to bribe her. I'm sure Edu would do it but I am definitely not ready to give up my hold on that gem. I will have to keep an eye on this as I would hate to go down to another AI love-fest the way I did in the Charlemagne game.

640AD: Another GS is born and he goes to sleep. The bulbs are getting tricky. Does anyone have a link to an updated bulb list? I am working with one from vanilla and it is of little help.

660AD: I renegotiate my trade deals for ~ another 15 gpt. I often forget to do this.

720AD: Toku has been looking like a really tempting target. I was originally planning on putting off the attack until after Lib but he doesn't even have LBs yet! Granted, I don't have much either but I roll the dice and DoW Toku before Cathy can gobble up his land. Even if I only take the nearest city it will be a huge gain since it has corn, pigs, and 2 gems.

760AD: My first GG is born and I send him north to join a medic-spearman.

780AD: I take Ligurian:

I finally finish AW (no stone ):

Persepolis will run as many priest as it can to try to pop a prophet or two down the line.

Isabella has Philo so I decide its ok to trade:

(continued in next post due to too many images)

 

[JBossch]

1AD-1080AD: (part two)

Spoiler :

800AD: Cathy DoW's Toku. I saw this coming but I will have to race to deny her any big prizes.

840AD: One last GS is born. I bulb him and the one that was sleeping for compass and a big chunk of Lib (2 turns left at current tech rate). Some may cringe at bulbing a cheap tech like compass but I will be cutting it close and the bulb list is tricky. Meanwhile I have teched through gunpowder but have held off machinery because it will unlock PP which would have shut down my bulbs. If anyone knows a way to bulb chem without first going through PP, please let me know how.
Note: I did not build the NE in Carthage until after this phase in order to keep it producing pure GP points.

860AD: A trade with Lincoln:

I notice Izzy has too much on her hands. I hope she is going to DoW Lincoln but I doubt it.

With Theo in, I revolt to slavery and theocracy. I have all the GS's I need for now and my pathetically outdated army needs some backup if I want to beat Cathy to Toku's best spots. I start whipping muskets with reckless abandon and sneak in a few buildings like cothons to enhance our trade empire. Also, I am finally getting some development going on in the northern lands.

880AD: A negative event with Cathy:

I wonder if it was the same couple whose wedding we celebrated before.

Another AP question:

I vote no and it fails. It probably doesn't make much difference but I really don't want others grabbing my prizes.

900AD: More annoying demands from Sury:

I decline and he is pissed. He will probably DoW me soon. Could be a problem.
Note: As you can see, Cathy has taken Satsuma which will be annoying. I was planning on burning it.

940AD: I decide it is time to break my monopoly on paper:

I start on chem.

1020AD: The fall of Kyoto:

Notice Cathy's stack right outside. I let her take down the defenses while I brought up enough of a force to take it on my own. One more turn and she would have taken it. Close one.

1030AD: Toku vassals to Sury who declares on me and Cathy. I am sure to take the brunt of whatever he has. My muskets should be able to handle anyhtign on land but I worry about the water. My navy currently consists of 1 galley eek.

1040AD: A GM pops in Persepolis despite my best efforts to produce a GProphet. I guess I will save him for a trade mission when I have caravels. My CR3 axes will eventually need to be upgraded.

I also trade with Lincoln:

I want to get working on some theaters to unlock the Globe which will go in Persepolis.

1050AD: Izzy has education. I really need to move on Lib.

1060AD: I take Osaka, one step ahead of Cathy's SoD once again. I am playing a dangerous game.

1070AD: Wow, very impressive Sury.

My muskets thoroughly wail on this pathetic stack.
A GG is born which is settled in Utica. (I have built the HE here and given it back Carthage's corn farm. It should be a decent unit builder unless I decide to go on another GP binge. )

1080AD: Lib is in and I take steel.

With cannons the AI's will not be able to touch me for a couple centuries so I feel in a pretty strong position here. I worry a bit about my economy which, as you can see, is slipping a bit.

The good news is, my power ranking is pretty good even without cannons:

My priorities include getting the Globe theater up in persepolis, whipping buttloads of cannons, and pounding on Toku some more.
Cathy's culture will soon be a problem and her stack is still unscathed. Toku's archers are offering scant resistance (though I think he just got LB's). I scrambled to grab Osaka before her and my axes will probably need to rest. The Sury attack complicates things further but a few cannons should solve that problem. I will probably try to grab optics soon as well in order to gain naval dominance and transport my GM.

???: I wonder if I should turn on Cathy before hitting Sury with full force. She is the most notorious backstabber and I don't want her on my flank while my army is deep in Khmer lands. Any thoughts?
Also, I need to do what I can to sow some discontent between Izzy and Lincoln. Anyone know how fast he will switch to FR after getting Lib? Its my best hope I think.

Definitely a fun game and far from over.

 

[JBossch]

@TheMeInTeam

Spoiler :

Welcome back to the fray!
Good job so far. You are definitely in the Lib race.

One thing: According to your late screen shots you can see the other continent (probably from a map trade) but you haven't met them yet. Remember you have the GLH. Get a workboat over there ASAP to scout their territory and hook up your trade routes. Not to mention, you may want to trade with them or at least find out their tech situation.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@TheMeInTeam

Spoiler :

Welcome back to the fray!
Good job so far. You are definitely in the Lib race.

One thing: According to your late screen shots you can see the other continent (probably from a map trade) but you haven't met them yet. Remember you have the GLH. Get a workboat over there ASAP to scout their territory and hook up your trade routes. Not to mention, you may want to trade with them or at least find out their tech situation.

Spoiler :

Very good point...I'm actually embarrassed I've not yet done this. The map trade was very late (probably in the past 10 turns or so ) as the strike early on hurt me and I was scraping for just marginal trading ability. I had to research down aesthetics and CoL then partial-research techs I wanted to trade for, gradually getting back to relative parity. However, since I'm in Sury's religion and it is NOT what the rest of the world is running, I'm not sure izzy will open borders. That would prevent pre-astro trade to America it seems. If I can at least meet them though I can at least get a hold of their tech pace. Based on how Cathy has been performing she appears to be tech leader though the brokering could seriously help me if I can swing it.

Once I have astro though OB with America could come in very handy with cothons (which I should probably build sooner rather than later in non-unit cities). If I want to win AP then it's likely that I need more land (and of course control of it). Sury is so big that if I get some land and the AP I can use him to vote me winner...but that will depend on whether I can get it and enough pop since it's likely at least ONE other civ is hindu, given cathy doesn't seem to be its founder! (which confuses me, Izzy usually goes budhism and none of the american leaders would typically be able to found hinduism...did Izzy get them both?!).

Your game (and really everyone else's) show this thread has some incredible players...I've had trouble taking steel with lib on monarch/emperor, even when trying to hamper the AIs. I'm probably going to win liberalism but unless I get lucky I don't think I'll have much time to screw around before the AIs get there. I get the feeling that if I didn't buddy up with sury i'd be toast or in a much weaker position.

 

[patagonia]

Chapter 2: 875BC - 1AD (35 turns)

Spoiler :

I've decided to deliberately avoid rushing Cyrus in this game for a couple of reasons. He's a good neighbour in that he'll never declare on me at pleased; I didn't want to play out another early rush; and I figure I can take his lands at my leisure later on, so why not expand into some of the space the other AI will grab now? Will this pay-off? Only time will tell, although right now I don't think I'm in as strong a position as those who rushed him and got the GLH.

==========

In 725BC, the decision not to rush Cyrus showed signs of being a costly one when he declared war (I'm assuming that decision was taken before he became pleased? Or has his personality changed in BtS?). Fortunately, Immortals are no match for spears, so I vanquished his stack for the loss of a solitary spear (softening up a catapult) and a few turns after that we were back to being at peace again.

Once our 10 turns of peace were up, he came along with a petulant demand:

One I was happy to acquiesce to since it improved relations and bought me another 10 turns of peace. The main problem with the brief skirmish with Persia was that I had to sink a few turns of production into units rather than settlers. Toku caught me by surprise by how quickly he expanded into the Jungle from the east, while Sury captured a barb city to the NW. This sealed off my expansion on the mainland after adding two more cities there, so I quickly moved to settle the two islands off the Carthaginian coast. The iron was a useful resource to grab, but with the Great Lighthouse, these cities were a real boon as settling them actually turned a profit.

With the desire to REX, I'd neglected my GPP in Carthage, but was able to use the merchant who was eventually born to bulb an important tech:

I was able to trade currency to Cathy and Sury for monarchy and alphabet respectively, so I think that was a worthwhile decision. I've now met 4 AIs, none of whom are in religions they've founded, which tells me that Isabella must be out there somewhere whoring them like crazy. There's a one-tile gap I may be able to slip my scouting warrior through to try and locate the others, but if not I'm sealed in by Toku to the N and W.

A quick overview of the empire:

Cyrus has 4 cities I'll be looking to assimilate later, which will make a nice addition. However, I think it'll be more important to get Sury and Toku fighting before too long and try to steal some Japanese cities from under the Khmer dude's nose. I want to avoid either of them looking my way for further expansion opportunities if possible.

Demographics aren't great, but there's a lot of scope for improvement. I think metal casting is going to be a key tech here with the hammer-poor land I've got to work with.

Spoiler :

 

[Sleepless]

4000BC - 775BC

Spoiler :

I settled in place and decided to go for Agr first whilst building a worker. Glad I did.

Nice. I did find 2 other huts for a scout and warrior, now dead.

I met Cyrus very early and although I didn't really want to go this route I decided I needed his lands. So my second city was built for the bronze and spent my time building axes and a few spears.

Techs after agr went myst, wheel, pot, sailing, writing after that I turned my tech rate down to get some money in the bank as:

a. I didn't have any.

b. Once my army moved out of my borders I'd have to pay the upkeep.

This helps.

This helps even more. Cyrus built the GLh for me. I though I had taken a screenshot but couldn't find one so probably didn't. Anyway

Thanks Cyrus.

His 3 cities fell quite easily. I lost 5 axes and 1 spear. Sad to say Cyrus is no more as I like having him in my games but my main thinking was the only way he can expand is through me so he had to go.

An overview of my lands.

Now my aim is to try and expand to the North and the little islands opposite Carthage. Definitely need IW for this. Depending on the land I can grab I don't see many wars on the horizon.

 

[Sleepless]

775BC - 500AD

Spoiler :

Well the plan was to expand as much as possible in the North. Unfortunately Cathie and Tok had other ideas. I managed to get the fish/horse site but Cathie settled just North of me and Tok taking the lands above her. I settled the 2 little islands to stop Sury settling there. I also captured 2 barb cities. 1 is quite far away but the 2 clams, 2 sugar and cow swayed me into keeping it.

I've built the GLib in Carthage. The Parthenon in Persopolis, currently building the MoM there. If I get it I'll have a go at the Collosus there as well.

Current relations are OK. Tok and Cathie are at war at the moment. Religions are spread around. I'm not sure where to go from here though.

The cover event is nice if I decide on a medievel war probably attacking Sury. I've already teched Machinery and have a few turns to go on CS so maces aren't far away. Managed to steal CoL from Cathie so that saved a few turns as well.

I've had 2 GS so far. Used one for an academy and one for Philo. The sensible idea is to go for Lib and look at taking Mil Trad using Cuiraissiers (sp) and spies. I will need to find the other Civ to see what the tech position is and see if I can put off Lib till after Nationalism. I'm a little bit annoyed with myself this game as I was going to try and avoid the early rush and not go for Lib. On the plus side I do tend to miss out on being first to Lib (Monte and Charlie games at least) so that would make a change.

 

[Sleepless]

@Patagonia

Spoiler :

Bad luck with Cyrus. I didn't want to rush him either but with him only having us to go expand through I thought it best to. My next game though I'm not going to attack anybody until I have no room to expand or they attack me. Going to avoid Lib as well. Have to see how that goes.

 

[JBossch]

@Sleepless

Spoiler :

I think you had the fastest rush
As for the rest, are you planning on going peaceful as long as possible? Toku was so backwards in my game I just couldn't resist.

 

[patagonia]

@ JBossch:

Spoiler :

My economy's strong enough to afford more cities now, but I don't have the military/infrastructure to sustain a war. I'd ideally like to expand at Toku's expense and another 500-years or so should see him fall behind a bit in tech. With any luck Sury will start to hate him now that they have different religions so I'm hoping for an opportunistic dogpile.

I think Sury's the main threat in my game. Isabella (haven't met yet, but I could tell she was in it from religion spread before seeing it in other reports) will almost certainly go cultural, but should be easy to smack down by that point and I need to get a look at Cathy's lands before knowing how much of a problem she's likely to be. I'd rather leave Cyrus alone for a bit since he's a non-factor, but I'll have to watch he doesn't voluntarily vassalise to one of the others.

I'll catch up with your latest save when I've played on a bit further

 

[Sleepless]

@JBossch

Spoiler :

Not sure where I'm going in this game. It probably would be a good idea to attack Tok especially as he has taken one of Cathies cities which would fit nicely in my empire. On the other hand Sury has some nice cities which would fit nicely as well.

If I had more room to expand I would take the peaceful route but I don't so ahead. Just not sure what units and who to attack. After I build some that is.

 

[Gliese 581]

@ JBossch et al. (spoiler up til the ads, all but one civ known).

Spoiler :

Right now it's me, Cathy, Toku and Izzy in Buddhism and Sury in Judaism. I'm also buddhist I've gotten all of them to like me and open border+trade. There's also a civ I haven't met that has founded Hinduism and built the shrine and Izzy is either at war with that civ or preparing to attack. Since Sury is close and least liked, if nothing happens along the way I'm probably looking at a rennaisance war against him and bribe Cathy to backstab Toku at the same time, then If I need to I can concentrate on the winner of that war or just sit back and go for some peaceful victory.

I'm pondering wheter to get numidian cavs right now for the flanking 1 promotion and go drafted Muskets + upgraded num cav -Cuirassiers. What do you all think, is flanking 1 worth the uopgrade costs and how much gold would I need for a good dozen, dozen and a half?
If I could get a GM and upgrade that would probably give me an earlier attack right?

Edit: Found the upgrade cost chart I was looking for. http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8523

 

[JBossch]

@ JBossch:

Spoiler :

With any luck Sury will start to hate him now that they have different religions so I'm hoping for an opportunistic dogpile.

@Patagonia

Spoiler :

Be careful of Cathy. In my game she is constantly trying to fight Toku and I ended up in a war way earlier than I had planned in order to make sure she didn't get his cities. (went pretty well, too. check my spoilers for some edge-of-the-seat opportunistic warfare.) My advice is to build an army any way you can in the event of AP declarations or a Cathy DoW on Toku. I put some massively outdated cats, axes, and Numid cavalry to great use this game.

 

[JBossch]

@ JBossch:

Spoiler :

With any luck Sury will start to hate him now that they have different religions so I'm hoping for an opportunistic dogpile.

Spoiler :

Be careful of Cathy. In my game she is constantly trying to fight Toku and I ended up in a war way earlier than I had planned in order to make sure she didn't get his cities. (went pretty well, too. check my spoilers for some edge-of-the-seat opportunistic warfare.) My advice is to build an army any way you can in the event of AP declarations or a Cathy DoW on Toku. I put some massively outdated cats, axes, and Numid cavalry to great use this game.

Edit: stupid double posts due to annoying slow internet atm. Anyone know how to delete posts?