Immortal University VII - Hannibal of Carthage

[JBossch]

1080AD-1555AD: Round 4

Spoiler :

The jihad against Toku/Sury grinds on but the Carthaginian war machine cannot be stopped...

1100AD: My army continues west and another city is grabbed from under Cathy's nose:

This time I let her attack once before I went in. (I really had no choice as my weak stack is now having trouble keeping up with hers.) She just barely missed taking Tokyo and her main SoD is wrecked. She still threatens to take Japanese cities, however, as she has reinforcement stacks of elephants coming up. Still, it buys me a few turns to reinforce with my shiny new muskets.
I also make a couple lux resource trades that were previously unavailable. I have thus far been able to manage war weariness without much slider use. The luxuries + a heavy whip hand have kept my cities small but (barely) happy.

1140AD: I almost gave Cathy education for peace with Sury/Toku but then she did it on her own this turn. I'm glad not to have to fear her stealing my prizes for now.
Instead I make this deal:

I immediately switch Persepolis's production from Globe (about halfway done) to the Taj.

I also notice that Cathy is willing to DoW Izzy but I can't match her price. Will have to keep an eye on this one.

1190AD: A few cannons are starting to come in and I finally take Nagoya.

I decide a brief respite is in order and take peace. (Had to pay off Sury with paper. Did he miss me crushing his catapult SoD with cannons!?)
I will put the ten turns of peace to use massing cannons/muskets.

1220AD: Cathy proves the world is round. I probably should have been more dedicated on this one but I doubt boats will be a deciding factor in this game.

1250AD: The Taj is in and I start rockin a GA!

I hoped to time this to coincide with my brief peace a little better but it will still help a lot.

1260AD: A GS is born and I settle him in Ligurian. I really have no idea what I was thinking on this. At this point, I had become enamored with a ridiculous plan to move my capital to Ligurian. It looks like a great bureaucracy capital with gems/riverside cottages/decent hammers. It is also centrally located in relation to the continent. Unfortunately, this is an idiotic plan for a lot of reasons (I am expanding westward, not east, and this relocation screws up maintenance, its cottages are not matured and the trade routes in Carthage mor than make up for its lack of cottages, I am about to go Nationalism for 5 centuries, vulnerability to attack, etc.) I am an idiot.
Even more unfortunately, I don't come to my senses for many turns.

1290AD: I manually cancel the peace treaty and DoW Sury/Toku. Once more into the breach!
My strategy is to finish off Toku (which will greatly reduce war weariness) and then decide whether to pursue Sury.

I notice this turn that Izzy and Cathy have become a little too close.

Not cool. This will have to be dealt with soon...

1310AD: ... and it is. Another AP decision causes another world war against Sury/Toku (I voted no).
Now I will have to again worry about Cathy's thievery!

The Globe is in at Persepolis and on the next turn (last turn of GA) I switch to Nationhood start drafting muskets. (But not the 3 AW enhanced priests. I am still hoping for a GProphet.)

1330AD: I burn my GM for a trade mission in Washington for 1300g. I upgrade some CR3 axes, pay some bills, deficit research, etc.

1340AD: Finally, my prophet scheme produces a GP! I build the Jewish shrine in Pasargadae. I will squeak out some jewish missionaries when I can and try to enhance the shrine (only worth 5g right now ). With corporations this doesn't seem as strong a move as before but I still think every bit helps, especially on immortal.

A trade w/ Lincoln:

I'm going to crank some frigates and show Sury who's the boss of our little ocean.

1400AD: Kagoshima (in the far north) falls:

1420AD: My SoD zigged when it should have zagged and Cathy takes Nara.

One more turn and I would have stolen it like before. This will be annoying when I turn on Cathy but manageable.

1460AD: Rifling is in and my drafting continues unabated.

A GG is born and I will probably use him to build a war academy later.

I raze a crappy Japanese city.

1490AD: I capture Nagasaki and Toku is no more!

(Notice Cathy's SoD valiantly charging ahead into Khmer lands. "Be right behind you Cathy!"

I am currently cranking a few monasteries before SciMeth comes in.
(On a related note, I often find myself dragging my feet on the way to SciMeth when I have GLib and Parth as I do here. Anybody think this is a bad idea? Good?)

1500AD: Izzy makes peace w/Sury. I will keep an eye on bribery possibilities.

Here is Ligurian where I have built Palace to within 1 turn. (Stupid, I know.):

I previously built the Hermitage and I am fairly proud of my culture's push against Creative Cathy.
I build an academy here next turn.

1505AD: With Toku out I get a big relief from war weariness so I press on against Sury with two columns, one along the N and W coast and one along the closer one. Jayendara-something is up first and Sury is not giving it up without a fight.

Our old war buddy Cathy has brought some guests to the party too. Lets see what happened to her SoD:

Oh the hits just keep coming for the Russian army.
No to mention the Khmer. It takes me 3 full turns to kill the 35+ units Sury crammed in there. Utter carnage.
Remember when war weariness was under control? Yeah its starting to strain me a bit. Whats that you say? I'm still in slavery? Problem solved.

1525AD: Another of Izzy's insolent demands:

I accept and we are friendly.

1530AD: At first I am glad to see Lincoln doing his part in the war w/ Sury by blockading a bit.

Then I see this:

Annoying. I will probably have to DoW him down the road a bit to seize the continent. I hate to shut down our trade but I am not going to let anything get in the way of domination.

1540AD: I am still amazed at immortal AI's ability to absorb casualties and quickly reconstitute their SoDs:

Cathy is still at war with Sury but contributing little. If she goes to peace I will have to reinforce my eastern flank.

1555AD: I bribe Izzy to attack Lincoln with Steel! (must have forgot screen shot )
Of course, I have to arm Lincoln for the conflict as well:

I also get him to sign peace with Sury. He will probably need to give Izzy his full attention to stand a chance.

I also make this deal, then start on artillery.

I am considering taking another brief break from war at this point. I have seized a substantial amount of territory from Sury but he has so much land and war weariness is really stacking up due to the horrendous casualties he is taking. My economy is in the crapper but I can probably still get to artillery first. My globe city is basically crapped out from constant drafting and needs to regrow. Most of my cities are small due to whipping and happy cap. I really need a quick GA/peace period (switching into bureaucracy and FR maybe) and 1 GP is all I need. If I had managed my GP a little better I could have had one right now but I am an idiot.
I consider the whole capital-moving scheme a bust and have switched prod to FP in Liguria (should have been built a long time ago ) The palace is still only a turn away from completion so if someone can talk me into it I will reconsider. The current difference in commerce is negligible but Ligurian will grow. The main problem is the massive maintenance that will hit when Sury's lands come out of revolt which unfortunately means I am staying in slavery for the near term.

Tech-wise I think I really need to prioritize communism for SP and econ for FM, which I think I can trade for while self-researching artillery. Lincoln will trade biology but I am afraid to grow any more while in this war.

The big question right now is more war or peace. I can absorb more war weariness with the culture slider but tech is already hurting bad. (EDIT: Just looked at Sleepless' game - Nice economy!) I am pounding on Sury but he just has so much land and I haven't even gotten to the big prizes yet which just lures me deeper. Besides a 10-turn peace treaty I have been at war continuously since 720AD!

The good news is that Toku's old land is now financial-cottage central and is only getting better. Some Jewish missionaries will help my gold but slowly.
I still haven't built Oxford but I am thinking Ligurian. (I'm about to check others' games for location.) Toku's old capital is getting IW. (It is just a beast in every way with 2xclams/fish/pig/iron/river.)

It won't be long before emancipation penalties start up and I am currently very reliant on slavery to get infrastructure in captured cities.

Any advice is welcome.

 

[JBossch]

@Gliese

Spoiler :

1170: I remember to ask some AIs for gold, they give me a total of 140. Note to self: turn 177.

How do you know when they will be available again? I assume thats why you're noting the turn you asked. I guess I thought this varied with AI personality or something.

I get a quest to seize copper from Toku, anyone know the rewards for this one? "Greed"

Its crap. 3 or 4 maces IIRC.


Looks like your game is going great. I wasn't able to mass rifles like that as I was in a series of never-ending wars. Is war weariness/draft anger going to be a problem?
Also, you are using spies for culture defenses and no siege? Will you be able to keep this up throughout the war or are you just relying on overwhelming firepower with rifles vs. LBs?

Sorry for all the Q's, still learning.

 

[Gliese 581]

JBossch:

Spoiler :

Nice warring! I just started my war as well and there's been significant casualties, 95% on the enemy side so far. There's also been some political backstabbing and drama, more on that later.
I read somewhere about begging to AIs, I figured it's either every 40th, 50th, or 60th turn something. I asked Cathy in turn 124 I think then again in turn 177 so it should be either 40 or 50 turns wait before you can ask again.
If you ask too early the timer will be reset so it could be risky to try for 40. I know there's at least one thread around about the subject (I know I started one a while back, can't remember the title though).

Macemen? But they are obsolete by now..hmm well I'll see what happens if I get it. Heh, actually it would be really sweet if they were macemen, then I could use them for mopup and replenish some of my CR units!

 

[Gliese 581]

Found it:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=253208&highlight=begging

It seems I had forgotten the mechanic a bit, every 40 turns give you a 87% success rate.
How much they will give is another matter, I've found that at least 40 or 50 up to half their gold if they have alot to a maximum < 100 will usually be granted.
So if they have 160, I try for 80.

 

[JBossch]

@Gliese

Spoiler :

If you ask too early the timer will be reset

I did not know that! Thanks for the info.

 

[JBossch]

@Sleepless:

Spoiler :

I loaded your game and ran 100% science. +1455 beakers/turn!! SciMeth in 2 turns! My civ looks like a bunch of bloodthirsty warmongering baboons compared to your ridiculous teching! I have twice your land and 1/3 your tech rate 100 years later.

Are you running HR for diplo reasons? Given all your settled scientists and potential to run more specialists in your Oxford city, wouldn't Rep be better?

No criticism intended, of course. Just trying to learn.

 

[Sleepless]

1480 - 1842AD The End

Spoiler :

Well I was planning on waiting for tanks before any wars. I looked at the big stack of rifles/cav and cannons I had I thought it would be a shame to waste them so.

Tanks weren't that far away though.

Obviously Toku didn't want to be squished so.

Hey my first vassal.

So next plan was to squish Cathie. Teach her to be furious with me. See Example.

So lets get her even more angrier.

I took 2 of her cities and obliterated a big stack before she capitulated. She did have Infantry but fell reasonably quickly anyway.

Nice wonder for Warmongers.

Who will be next? Could it be Sury.

Nice to see Cathie doing her bit. Tok sent a nice stack against him as well. Didn't let them take any cities though.

So after a bit of a struggle. Sury teched Industrialism just as he capitulated so didn't face any tanks. By this time I was using bombers as well so quite easy to beat just took some time.

During this time I had been building some transports for my next foray. No rest for the wicked so off to see Isabella. Teach her for not trading Hit Movies with me. She was still well away from a cultural win something I had kept an eye on.

So Isabella its time.

That will teach her for not giving me her movies. I was quite surprised to see the best units she had were Grens. Didn't even have rifling so as my tanks were heading for Madrid.

Vassal number 4.

So that leaves.

With the whole world against him he decided to follow everybody else and.

Leading to.

I did cheat a little bit as I liberated some cities on the last turn to put me under the domination limit. (Edit: I loaded up my last autosave to see whether I would get a conquest or domination win. Result Conquest so gifting the cities back cost me about 7000 in score with the same result. Oh well.) Only so I could see my favourite ending though. I could have won a UN victory earlier with all my vassals having to vote for me now that would have been cheesy.

Another fun game. Thanks silverbullet.

 

[Sleepless]

@Sleepless:

Spoiler :

I loaded your game and ran 100% science. +1455 beakers/turn!! SciMeth in 2 turns! My civ looks like a bunch of bloodthirsty warmongering baboons compared to your ridiculous teching! I have twice your land and 1/3 your tech rate 100 years later.

Are you running HR for diplo reasons? Given all your settled scientists and potential to run more specialists in your Oxford city, wouldn't Rep be better?

No criticism intended, of course. Just trying to learn.

@JBossch

Spoiler :

Spot on with running HR. The idea was to keep Cathy sweetish so I could tech quite peacefully. On the last turn of the Golden Age I went into Rep and as expected Cathie became annoyed.

The GLh was giving me a lot of trade income. Most cities had 6 trade routes before Corp. I did give economics away cheaply to everybody hoping I could get them to go into FM. Worked in most cases. Only Sury was in the it goes against everything we stand for mode. After the Charlie game it made a nice change to have a fast tech rate.

Regarding Sci Meth and the losing the GLib/Parthenon and monasteries. I'm tending to go more farms and workshops early so Communism for SP and Biology are very important techs and make up for the loss. Plus I needed to know if I had oil in this game. No fun going for tanks without it.

 

[ungy]

I give this a try although I'm still stuck on the last one (I butchered it).

Up to 125 AD

Spoiler :

I settle in place and decide to try the peaceful route and try for the GLH and not rush.
Unfortunately I'm late on it and I'm not even close--it goes in 1480.
I use my first settler to found a crap city to work the copper/gold at size 2 to keep Cyrus from grabbing it--hate to do that but seemed like if I didn't I would be rushing. He does sneak in and grab a city at the incense.
The AI are teching pretty well and there is no war yet--I'm missing a contact.
I build the GLib and have 7 cities. There's room to the N but not sure how aggressively I want to expand there--maybe I add a city or two. Should be enough for a later war of expansion.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Oy, rough game for me, came out alive. 1010 AD to Finish:

Spoiler :

The first thing I did was pick up Liberalism:

Used it to grab Printing Press. I then traded for chemistry pre-reqs as I indicated in the previous segment. Ran into a bit of a problem while on that techpath though:

I was kind of hoping she'd want to jump on Toku like Sury, but this wasn't the case. It was hard but I camped her out. I killed so many units...she never took a city. The 2 border cities near her had walls and numidian cavalry and stacks of leftover axes/new units I was spamming.

At some point I tried for a handout:

No dice .

The was against cathy was a knock down, drag out nonsense affair. I used GG's for healers and (for a change) a super knight (I had grenadiers and thus could protect it, but since it had march and strength it was strong offensively). Toku declared war after patching things up with Sury...surprising not on me but on Cathy! I sniped all but 1 of the cities he went for, capturing 3 or 4 russian cities. Then, just after 1540 AD...

Cathy capitulated to Toku. At this point, I thought I'd lost. I was selling out to grab the AP from Cathy at all costs. I actually reloaded there, but couldn't change the results in any positive, and actually went back a final time and just played it with Cathy as a vassal of Toku like originally happened. My one small flicker of hope at that point was that Sury would declare on Toku even with a vassal.

He did. With that distraction, I resumed war with the two as well. Sury, technologically advanced and leading the world in power by an insane margin, vassalized toku. For my part, I again pushed for the russian capitol (I looked carefully to find the AP, and realized it was there before my war with Cathy had even started). I shouldered through Cathy's airships and defenses with juts grenadiers and cannons (and my now cavalry GG and GG healer!). The result:

Peace out, backstabby Cathy. Control of the AP shifts! Unfortunately not running the AP religion dilutes it. This caused a problem:

I quickly avoided any stupid loss by spreading the AP religion heavily. Not quite enough votes, so I'd have to go to war again. Sury declared on Lincoln (could this be better?!). I liked this, because each city Sury took would drain votes from him and give them to me. One problem however:

Lincoln had fought Izzy, and took her only hindu city! So, if I wanted a diplo win, it was time to EARN it. I was badly behind in tech, except conveniently on Izzy, whom I had infantry vs rifles against:

Although she picked up infantry pretty quick . Some other highlights from the war:

And her death:

I quickly spread hindu there. Well now everything was finally set up. I was worried when Sury built the UN, because he could have won UN diplo, however I had something else in mind!

Yay for "full monty" (as another poster has said) warfare! The heathens are slain, and I back out (barely) with a win. Immortal is hard, but I'm finally here to stay. Hopefully I can shore up my play even further this way.

 

[tycoonist]

@ TheMeInTeam:

Spoiler :

another AP victory! what a surprise...

 

[tycoonist]

got an update ready, i'll post it later today.

 

[tycoonist]

i was going to wait but i just can't be bothered:
1AD - 740AD

Spoiler :

i followed some of the helpful suggestions given at the end of my last round. these included going for the GL, capturing Magyar in the north and keeping it as a buffer. i also founded a city on the northern island of the pair to the west. unfourtunately Survayman settled the southern island so i will probably lose the iron because of his creative trait. i also used the confucian missionary for exploring (thanks to who suggested that, i would never have thought of it). he was eventually lost to the Japanese army.

oh yeah, the major event of the round was this:

of course i agreed and proceeded to capture three cities with my incredibly promoted army (18exp axemen) for the loss of two axes.

got this random event to add to the cover promotion one i got given earlier. i don't really know what to do about it as flanking is pretty useless and i don't plan on building mounted units much.

met isabella, who wasn't too pleased at first but soon came around is now cautious with me, thanks to some trades and tributes.

i really couldn't risk the fury of survayman so i agreed. he moved to pleased so i aasked him for priesthood and he complied. so effectively i traded calendar for priesthood and a +1 modifier with him. i sold my soul.

i had gotten all i could afford with my small but effective army in the north so peace was the order of the day:

the empire is looking pretty impressive:

13 cities, not to shabby. i might build one on the gold to the south as well.

oh, and i got the Great Library in Persepolis (which also has the NE)

the save:

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@ TheMeInTeam:

Spoiler :

another AP victory! what a surprise...

Spoiler :

Now now, I ended up wiping out or severely contributing to the wiping out of three different civs to set up the victory, and had it planned from pretty early on too . You're doing better at that point than I was. I'm still amazed at the skill/strategy shown here.

 

[tycoonist]

Spoiler :

Now now, I ended up wiping out or severely contributing to the wiping out of three different civs to set up the victory, and had it planned from pretty early on too . You're doing better at that point than I was. I'm still amazed at the skill/strategy shown here.

Spoiler :

it did look pretty well planned out and you could have got domination i think. i am pretty positive about my situation following the tokugawa war. i think i might start a series of attritional wars to keep survayman in check cause i am worried about his tech pace.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@ Tycoonist:

Spoiler :

Yeah, Sury was very powerful and the runaway tech leader in my game. So much to the point that I'd have not been able to win domination because of him...he had more than double my power rating and a tech lead, which is a lot of catching up! Just as importantly however he and his vassals had me completely surrounded, and toku had enough forces to cause problems as well. Maybe if I'd pulled off an interned beeline or rush-bought EP buildings and stole my way back it would have been possible, but it would have been an uphill battle and very difficult. I'm not certain but I think if Sury called a UN victory before I called the AP victory, I'd have lost!

 

[JBossch]

I finally added a save to my Round 4 update if anyone's interested.

I still am trying to decide just how long a slavery-powered renaissance-unit war can last.

 

[Gliese 581]

I still am trying to decide just how long a slavery-powered renaissance-unit war can last.

Recognize!

 

[JBossch]

1555AD-1826AD: Round 5 (and victory)

Spoiler :

@Gliese: It turns out the answer is about a thousand years.


At the end of the last round I was really considering a brief peace treaty. However, my military was just unbeatable and having so much success against Sury that I just couldn't bring myself to reign them in. So, we press on...

1560AD: Another GG is born and I make another superhealer so I can continue my double SoD strategy.

1575AD: Yikes! I paid a handsome price for this war and would hate to see it end prematurely.

Fortunately, my no vote prevents it from passing and the Lincoln v. Izzy war continues.

1595AD: I finally give Cathy gunpowder in exchange for Econ. I have been holding back military techs from her but this one is so old I think its OK.

A deal with Lincoln as well:

The extra growth likely means even more reliance on the culture slider.

I also make a civic swap to FM and FR (for 2 turns of anarchy, but what can you do? With my crippling war weariness the anarchy almost feels like a relief.):

1600AD: Say goodbye to the GLH bonus:

Her outdated SoD was again threatening to take cities now that Sury's back is completely broken so I bribe her back to peace.

1625AD: Another one!:

Getting into FR diminished my AP votes enough that it passes this time. The war didn't result in any cities changing hands but I did see both sides pop a GG or 2 so hopefully they bled each other a bit.
Thats what I get for electing Lincoln to the AP.

1640: Sury is dead! Thus ends the Great 1000 year war. (Don't worry, the peace won't last.)

...and in case you didn't believe me when I said war weariness was becoming a problem, heres a look at Kyoto:

1675AD: "I know we've been real tight Lincoln, but this continent belongs to Carthage!" I DoW him and take the city he grabbed earlier on the next turn.

He is immediately willing to sign peace (very rare, I feel. Don't they usually refuse to talk for a few turns no matter what?) I get a pretty good deal.

1680AD: A GA is born and I burn him for a golden age. My empire is actually an economic powerhouse when its not crippled by WW and the GA helps me crank through a few techs and raise some cash for upgrades while my army rushes east. Izzy is ahead of me in tech but won't trade due to WFYABTA. We used to be friendly but we went to pleased because I traded with Lincoln during their war.
I finally finish Oxford in Carthage during the GA.
I immediately make another civic swap into Rep/Bureaucracy/SP.

1700AD: Stupid Cathy steals artillery! She has somehow managed to tech through rifles and steel and will present more of a challenge than I had hoped. I am heading for infantry but probably will attack before I get them.

1715AD: On the last turn of my GA I make one more swap back to Nationhood and Emancipation (penalty just can't be swallowed anymore).

1730AD: I gift Lib to Lincoln and he is willing to reopen borders and trade for his luxuries again (which is good because I will soon need them again).

1735AD: I upgrade some cannons to artillery and DoW Cathy. My strategy is similar to the one used against Sury: One stack in the north (comprised mostly of my best veterans) which will start with Nara and do most of the heavy lifting without relying on many reinforcements. The other stack (mostly green troops/conscripts) will follow the south coast and get most of the reinforcements/naval support. The theory is that they will converge on the chokepoint that guards her earliest cities.

1760AD: Facism is in and I revolt to PS. I also have Assembly line and have upgraded most of my front-line rifles to infantry

1780AD: I get a little cocky with my southern SoD, charging forward without waiting to heal/splitting up, etc. I pay for it dearly when Cathy produces a stack of artillery/rifles/cossacks and wipes out all of my southern SoD's siege. Good job idiot. Oh well, its only a temporary setback as my northern army is kicking ass. Her cities are just so densely packed in this area and I am getting impatient.

1795AD: Izzy completes Apollo program. Good luck with that, Izzy.

1814AD: Cathy and I get destroyers at about the same time but my airships result in hers being quickly sunk.

1826AD: Victory!!!

Ending Demographics:

Whats that? You think we need arms limitation treaties? I just need all these soldiers for home defense.

But my brutal warmongering results in (by far) my best score ever!

(Previous best was about 85000 for the Sury Immortal U. game.)

Thanks again to silverbullet for hosting and to everyone who provided their valuable insights. Have I graduated from Immortal University yet?

I learned a ton this game (especially about how far a slavery-powered war can be pushed) and would love to chew it over with anyone else who is done. Good luck to those who are still working on this one. (But not too much luck, I am still hoping to have the best score/earliest finish on this one. )

 

[Sleepless]

@JBossch

Spoiler :

on your win. Score wise you beat me by about 2000. If I'd not tried to be cute for the conquest win which I would have got anyway and gift back some cities I would have ended up with 146,000. So it just goes to show cheats never prosper.