Immortal University XIII - Zara Yaqob

[Bleys]

Cool Snow, that makes it very likely the Barbs tech level at the start isnt important.

I just thought of another way to check. You can see what techs the Barbs have in WB mode, so you could check it at turn 1. I will do that with a test map right now, in fact, and let you know.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Right TMIT, thats the "process", I always just focus my eyes on the lower corner when the "choose Civ" screen comes up, since the one I want is the default, I just click through the OK quickly.

But as I said in my above post, once you re-start it as a Scenario, there is a chance the Barbs get messed up a tad. Scenario menu does NOT add techs, we know this from the Prince to Monarch thing. So the Barbarian Nation starts the game without knowledge of Archery. Now, they may just "obtain" that knowledge before they start appearing, I am not sure, but if they dont, it makes the game play much differently, especially at this level where Barbs are such a strong game element.

We could likely test it. Play the game from the save like normal, at Normal speed, then play it again from the WB save-scenario, again at Normal speed. Try to duplicate your moves as exactly as possible, and when Barbs appear, go into the WB and see. If the regular save has some roaming archers, and the WB game has only warriors, then we know.

I think it depends on the original game that was started. For example, noble games start with warriors everywhere, even if scenario'd to immortal. Similarly, monarch saves get the AIs having archers, EVEN ON NOBLE. I'd imagine it works very similar with immortal and that barbs would be immortal-class barbs if you make the worldbuilder off an immortal save and don't modify that part, but I could be mistaken. I often play with barbs off so I don't have much personal experience to cite here.

 

[Bleys]

OK I did a test, and there is no doubt that the Barbs lose all their techs when you use a WB file. I started an Immortal game, checked, and the Barbarian Nation started with Ag, Hunting, and Archery. Then, I made a WB file, edited the speed, and restarted it as a scenario, and the Barb Nation has no techs at all.

I am going to play a few turns, until I see barbs, and check that instant.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

maybe they tech in the mean time? till they show up?

wanted to do same test, but don't have the game near; that being said, in the 3 univs. I tried and 1 deity(the other I was wiped too fast to have barbs.) they had archers in cities(that I'm positive off). The rest I wasn't careful tbh...

 

[Bleys]

OK, for what its worth, in my unofficial test, there is a problem with the Barbarian Nation and its techs.

I played a Normal speed Immortal level game, and checked the WB map on turn 1, Barbarians know Ag, Hunting, and Archers. On turn 30 (checking every 5 turns), the first barb non-animal units start appearing, and in my test game, a mixture of warriors and archers spawned on that turn. By turn 45, the first barb city appeared, with all archers inside.

I then played another game, created at Immortal level, normal speed. I went into the WB file, saved it, edited the speed, and restarted it as a scenario. I still kept the speed at Normal. On turn 1, the Barbarian Nation had zero techs. On turn 30, the barb non-animal units did spawn again, but they were all Warriors, and a check in the WB files showed the Barb Nation still had zero techs. I continued to check the WB every 5 turns.

By turn 45, the Barb Nation still had no techs, and only Warriors roaming around. Also, the first barb city had only Warriors defending it.

At turn 55, still only Warriors, and no techs. At turn 60, the Barb finally had Ag, Hunting, and Archery. Going back to 55 and checking every turn indicated that the Barbs learned those techs on turn 58.

At turn 64, I saw the first barb archer.

I think this makes it pretty clear there the Barbs are affected by taking save files and creating WB Scenarios with them. Just so you all know.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

on the test

good to know

And there appears to be no way to "give" the barbs Archery in that situation.

when editing the file to reset turn, can't you just add the techs(I mean, I know I can type them, but won't they have any effect)?

 

[Bleys]

when editing the file to reset turn, can't you just add the techs(I mean, I know I can type them, but won't they have any effect)?

The problem is that the Barbs have no listing in the WB file anywhere. If it was a case of actual AI Civs, yes. In fact, thats how I made my WB files for the PYL games in 2 versions, I took Archery away from the AI whose save it was going to be, and gave it to the AI whose save I created the time before.

But there is no "team" for the Barbs. In the WB files, each player, be it human or AI, has a "team" number assigned, and techs are given to that "team". Then, later in the file, each leader is assigned a team number. So Team 3 starts with knowledge of Ag, Mining, and Archery on Monarch, then later it is noted that Team 3 = China, with its leader and starting tile, etc. The Barbs dont have a team, and AFAIK that is the ONLY way to give AIs techs in the WB.

Its really a mess, I am kinda sorry that I even opened this can-o-worms WAY BACK when I tried to play the Gilgamesh LHC and won on Time in 1910 because I didnt alter the game speed from Normal to "None" or "Epic" when I created a scenario. That was what first led rolo and I to start investigating this concept of using WB saves instead of actual game saves.

That reminds me, TheMeInTeam wants to run a PYL, I should send him a PM about how I did it, because the first PYL was a bit of a disaster, with a bunch of Emperor-Immortal level players executing Warrior Rushes on Willy and such, LOL.

So I dont have a solution. Maybe we can contact the resident CFC WB save Guru, Dale.

Here is his thread called "An In-depth look at the WBS file". Its where rolo and I got much of our WB editing tips and ideas for the way we run the Nobles Club and the Lonely Hearts now.

 

[Bleys]

You know, I was just thinking that this is probably a good way to sort of "get the hang" of Immortal. I find the most troubling thing about Immortal is trying to stop the Barbs AND expand AND keep my improvements, etc etc. By having the Barbs be warriors for a while, I can relax a bit and work out the expansion vs economy thing a bit more.

Kind of "Immortal Light", to copy a phrase I use in the Nobles Club (I dont make an "AI has Archery" WB in that series, so if you choose Monarch, its really "Monarch Light")

I am going to have a real go at this game I think. Barbs chewed me up in my "from the save" try, but if I WB it, play at Epic, the Barbs wont be as devastating.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

Honestly, the games where I start without teching archery 1st 4 techs(supposing I didn't find something in bfc) are those in which I know I'll play poorly

anyway, I think the ai will be the only one taking advantage of warrior defended cities(even if minor advantage) in form of pillage cash(they don't wait for cities to hit 2 then attack) because at that time you can't do much and either the barbs. are promoted to archer afterwards or something(no clue, maybe the ai raze them fast - 4 games aren't enough of a test sample, but really didn't see any warrior defended city)...

At least, as marathon player(so many turns of barbs. spawning) I've learnt fog busting city cities and taking out 4 archers/whatever asap to be the Holy Grail; at least deity barbs. are quick to teach you that

Anyway, I don't think that increasing the speed will ease the prob. even with 20 more safe turns. On the other hand, playing on what speed you're accustomed, certainly will do

 

[BurN]

I don't have much time these days so I tried to keep it simple.


4000BC-1360AD

Spoiler :

3960BC - Settled Aksum 1W to grab cow.

Between 3960-1400BC - Settled Gondar at stone+gold.

1400BC - Settled Lalibella all the way south, grabbing banana+cow+horses+gems.

1040BC - Settled Addis Ababa on top of southern silk, getting sugar+dye+rice.

750BC - GS, settled in capital.

725BC - Mids in capital, rep.

600BC - Settled Yeha on top of southern iron, grabbing corn+2xgems.

525BC - Map.



200BC - Settled Debre Berhan, incense+cow+fish.

150BC - Shwe Paya in capital, paci.

100BC - GS, academy in capital.

75AD - HG in capital.

200AD - Adulis grabbing eastern iron+2xwine+cow+silk.

250AD - GS, bulb phil.

325AD - Monty dow Willem.

640AD - GE, settle in capital.

680AD - Settled Qohaito all the way east, corn+fish.

840AD - UoS in capital. Also got to lib but I delay it (for a long time).








940AD - Raze eastern barb city.

1030AD - Settled Matara, eastern stone+fish.

1070AD - First to economics, free GM, settled. I got another GM earlier, which is already at Gilgamesh's capital, waiting for gold bomb.

1080AD - GP, golden age.

1120AD - Monty peace with Willem.

1190AD - GE, settled.

1200AD - 1 turn till lib. Take riffling for free.






1210AD - 2500+ gold to upgrade CR2 maces to riffles+switch to nationhood.

1230AD - Bribe Monty to war with Willem and dow Willem myself.

1240AD - Capture Middelburg.

1260AD - Capture Rotterdam & GG born.

1310AD - Capture Maastricht.

1320AD - Capture Delft.

1350AD - Capture Cuman & Amsterdam. Board leader now.

1360AD - Getting annoyed by Willems Grenadiers killing of my riffles once in a while .. so I decided to call it a day.












Game plan: Wipe out Willem -> get cannons -> kill Monty -> get Buddhist shrine -> kill Charle -> space.

Tbh I dno if I will finish this one, this is pretty much won already.

 

[silverbullet]

Played 30 turns and stopping for advice. I am trying to post a detailed report here because my early game is usually not as optimal as the early game of other posters, so please help me micromanage

4000BC - 2680BC

Spoiler :

Settled in place and started teching agriculture->BW->Wheel
Build was worker->warrior->warior partial->worker (at size 3)->warrior
I received 1 warrior from a hut and the agriculture tech 1 turn before completion

My 2 workers are currently working on connecting the bronze so I can build some decent defense against barbarians.

I have met my neighbours - 1st was Willem, so I assume he is the closest, then Monty who is budhist and now Chalres the Great who is hindu and is likely to keep Monty busy.

Scouting reveals some great land:




My thoughts:
I REALLY want to build a city which will get to work all 3 gem tiles. This way I can specilze it for commerce. However, I need early iron working for this.
I currently make 9 beakers per turn, which will make iron working take 28 turns, and even more if I settle the gems spot first.

So I need to get more commerce. Therefore, I want to settle Fur-City first.

After working 2 fur tiles I should double my current beaker output.
Also, the AIs seem to be far away, so I believe I have a shot at taking the jungle gems with a 3rd city.

Fur city will need a food resource, so next tech should be either fishing or animal husbandry, depending on where I plan to settle it. I am inclined to go for the fish spot, because it will still leave room for 2 cities west of the capital (cows and fish-bronze). It also eliminates a useless tundra tile.

After fishing I will go directly to iron working, grow the captial to max while building an axe, and then a settler, and another axe+settler.

 

[silverbullet]

A general question about oromo warriors - what are they good for except for upgrading and creating drill 3 or 4 rilfes?
On immortal it is reasonable to assume your opponent will have knights by the time you have oromos, so you will need some pikes to defend your stack and some trebuchets to take city defences down and cause collateral damage to defending knights and longbows.
I can see their value after softening the enemy- first strikes means more chances to escape combat unharmed, so less healing time, but it doesn't seem too strong, compared to musketeers or janissaries.
Any thoughts?

 

[Bleys]

Drill I also opens up other promotions, Cover, Pinch, Shock, and the Combat line.

I thought they worked out well against Justinian in the Religious Zealot PYL game, was a blast. I like them, I think Zara is a strong leader to Draft after Muskets, so you go for Cannons and Pikes instead of trebs.

 

[silverbullet]

I like Zara a lot, but not because of the UU.
I don't see the big advantage of cannon/oromo over cannon/musket combination. At worst you would need extra 2~3 muskets in your SOD to get the same job done.
Oromos would be better in defending cities you capture, but how much of an issue is it anyway in musket/cannon wars?

 

[Gliese 581]

I haven't been in the situation but I imagine it can be quite nice to be able to give cover shock and pinch straight away when you draft level 2 units as opposed to just giving them combat 1.

 

[Belisar]

@silverbullet

Spoiler :

This depends on game style but your cow-furs city would allow for the capital-satellite tactic, as I call it.
Early on, you almost always want your capital working high food and high production tiles. This (and the low happy cap) delays setting up a strong bureaucracy-capital.
I situation like you are in I would settle to the north, the city will be able to develop no less than 6 cottages, 4 of them riverside while the capital is busy building settlers, workers, troops and infra.
Once your happy cap is higher and you get Civil Service and an academy - you get it.

The fish can be used for a "drunken sailor" city"

 

[Sleepless]

@silverbullet

Spoiler :

Seeing as my micro management is really bad I'm probably not going to give the best advice.

A bit different start for me as I settled 1W when I saw the riverside cows with the scout. My 2nd city was built for the stone/gold. Initially it just worked the gold without growing. Great for early commerce and getting the early techs.

One other option I like to use for early IW is scientists. With Zara we get cheap libraries so don't take long to build and that helps cut the time dramatically.

I can't say to much as I have already finished . Report to follow when I get time.

 

[silverbullet]

@silverbullet

Spoiler :

Seeing as my micro management is really bad I'm probably not going to give the best advice.

A bit different start for me as I settled 1W when I saw the riverside cows with the scout. My 2nd city was built for the stone/gold. Initially it just worked the gold without growing. Great for early commerce and getting the early techs.

One other option I like to use for early IW is scientists. With Zara we get cheap libraries so don't take long to build and that helps cut the time dramatically.

I can't say to much as I have already finished . Report to follow when I get time.

@Sleepless

Spoiler :

I stupidly moved the scout 1 NW instead of 1NE and lost the cows. You placement is much better, giving extra cows and bronze to the city, also enabling the gold city to share the corn.
Anyway, I will try to make the best from this start.
EDIT: I just repopened the 4000BC save and the computer even highlightst the blue circle at the spot you settled. I guess I should listen to the computer suggestions more seriously.

 

[obsolete]

Well, a very interesting situation. I always hate non-spiritual leaders, but had some time to wait so decided to experiment with Zara for a bit. My micromanagement got utterly terrible in many areas of this game, but that's mainly because I can't really get an urge to focus much when dropping down to Immortal. I'm sure I would have done much better otherwise...

Actually, I did do quite well, perhaps a little too well. The game ended sooner than I wanted, as I pulled off a diplomatic vote, but I wanted my last war to last even longer, haha! Some interrsting things happened, (quite, as I did a lot of new experimental strategies). In fact, I got DoW'ed on by a super power & his vassal, and he marched a huge SoD right infront of my one city, while he alone had between a FACTOR of 5 to 6 times the strength of my own power rating. AND I STILL KICKED THEIR ASS, without losing a single city. Sounds impossible, but that's really what happened (AI is just too incredibly stupid). And yes, that's FACTOR of 5-6, not just 5-6 times higher.

I'll try to get some of the stuff posted later this evening..

 

[obsolete]

Alright done.... here it is.

Good luck to the rest.

Spoiler :

Alright, I'm not going to spend much time on a step by step writeup, so here are the quick highlights.

First turn I moved scout 1 position NW, and saw cows. Decided to gamble and shift capital 1 spot to the left. Usually I avoid repositioning capitals as it's burned me too many times in the past, but lately I seem to be taking after Snaaty a lot (they seem to work ok for him!)

I decided to try to just do a bunch of rexing, as what else are you going to do with Zara? So I tried to grab a few places, and cut off some areas. Well, I don't know... I found stone near by, and I found it really a big waste that I didn't revert to my standard doctrines! Argggh.

Well I eventually did start to use it... I started to purposely work on wonders like Pyramids after a while, CI, and A. Wat so that I could PURPOSELY let another civ beat me to them, then I could grab lots of wealth instead, and use that to help fund my overly expanded cities while keeping a tech lead (games on Immortal are very forgiving!)

There was one wonder I did build in BC though, that was the lighthouse, as I wanted to be able to support my over-expansion, haha!

After that, nothing much happened until I hit liberalism. I chose nationalism like always, and then worked on Taj, and also I changed tactics here, as I went after Divine Right! I NEVER go after a useless tech, but I figured, I have stone why not build the Spiral thing, and the AI is so stupid, that I could backsell it later.

Ohh I forgot, I also built another wonder, the UoS, and decided to keep it for teching purposes (as I was able to finally support my cities at that time).

After that, I went constitution to open up Rep... and since we went that far, why stop there? I went to democracy, for only the sole purpose of unlocking the SoL, which I built.

After that, I went up the media route. I was planning to go for the Internet, then win space race through espionage tactics, but realized there was a chance I could win diplomatic victory, so decided to give myself two ways to win. Despite I NEVER go for diplo usually.

Anyhow, Joao spun out of control a bit, and ended up completing RnR before me, including Hollywood, but I did at least grab Broadway, Eiffel, and..... Cristo. I would have to say, Cristo was an absolute godsend to me! As I really was crippled the whole time without my spiritual traits! After that, I really started to take off again.... Unfortunately...I would run into problems soon enough.

Anyhow, I was friendly with Charle, and Gilga. I also got Cathrine on my side, but I had to do a bit of spywork and missionary work to make that happen. And then....

Disaster struck.

Willem, decides to DoW on me, despite I had a defence pact with 3 other nations!!!!

Ok, I admit, I was going in builder mode, and his power rating to my own was a factor of 5 to 6 times higher, but.......

I had 3 other nations on my side no? Is this another change in 3.17? Or is the AI just... too stupid as always.

Well, he marches one GIGANTIC SoD stack full of artillery right next to one of my border cities. A city with just an axeman still defending it, Ahaha! But least it was fortified!

Oh well, that same turn my option for Diplo resolutions came up, of course I chose STOP THE WAR WITH ZARA!

It passes, despite Willem and his vassal Monte voted no. (IDIOT AI, all they had to do was defy it, yes?)

That meant, I had about 10 turns to build up an army out of NOTHING basically, or be R.I.P. (That's what happens sometimes when you're a builder at heart). But no problem, I got my spiritual trait back.

Zara then had to march his army all the way to the West, in order to hit Charle's cities. That's interesting, because charle did absolutely NOTHING to defend his cities. Now.. You'd think with protective traits he maybe could hold his own. Nope, he hardly sent any defenders at all to his cities. Now that realllllllly pissses me off. I know god damn well if I had DoW on charle, he'd be whip/drafting like a mother f***er and have a hundred units in that city in a single turn. But nope, not vs another AI apparently.... It was like he just wanted to give his cities away.

I had the option of gifting Charle defenders, but what was the point? He'd just waste them, hell I once had a game where after gifting a whole bunch of units to my vassal in a DEITY game, it decided to DISBAND them all! So... NEVER AGAIN!!!!

I just kept stockpiling tones and tones of tanks, with tones and tones of drafted units. Oh yeas, I also even built the 3G-Dam, then decided to just stop teching altogether and built tones of wealth since there was no point going further up the tech chain.

I kept following Willem's mega-SoD as it kept moving from city to city of charle's. I ended up losing it at one point, and couldn't find it ANYWHERE!!!!

Then stupidly realized, he had put it on the same tile as my own SoD, haha! But I couldn't DoW it anyway because I had to wait for my 10 turns of peace to expire!!!!

Luckily, Charle didn't vassal over in that time (perhaps because he'd still have 2 other nations to contend with if he did). Well, as soon as I was through my peace contract, I DoW and delivered a verv nice blow.... I totally oblitered his SoD of artillery, and took 2 cities back from Charle in just one turn. Next turn Willem wanted to give me lots of gold for peace, despite he was close to top in lead, ahah. Too late now....

I must say.. There is nothing more fun, then taking a ton of tanks, and smashing them into a ton of artillery units that are defending a city! Ohhh, and I totally crushed a stack of cavalry too that he foolishly did not upgrade to helicopters!!!!!

There really is not much good I can say about the AI's utterly terrible way of fighting wars. Even with rediculous numbers of units, it's just..... so bad!

Anyhow, my masterplan for Diplo vic kept going the way I didn't want it. Even though Joao had more territory than Catherine, she still kept getting put on the list with me, so that was messing up all the votes. Arggggg..

Oh well, I decided to push on fighting anyhow...

And then... just as I was having TOO much fun with obliterating Willem, Joao suddenly was my contender on the Diplo vic vote. And that was fine with me, as Catherine now voted for me instead of against me, and I pulled it home.


Grrrr.. And I was sooooooooo looking forward to finishing off my continent.

BTW, Charle offter to FRIENDLY vassal to me. I took it because i didn't want him vasseling to the DARK SIDE. But I had never seen this ask to me before, and I assume it's part of the 3.17 patch changes. Ohhhh, and it is interesting how Willem didn't go after his culture vic as he used to always do in 3.13.